Uberti Rifle-FTF Issues

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

I’ve been having issues over the last few months with light primer strikes (Federal) in my Uberti rifle. A little history of the rifle first. I bought this in 2020 from a well known cowboy and ran it with no problems until this year. It is short stroked and I believe the year of manufacture is 2008. The code on the rifle is CAT.5989, it is a .45 Colt. The bolt I have has the through hole with pin for the firing pin extension.

My first steps were adjusting the hammer spring tension screw.  Tightened all the way this did not help.  Next, I replaced the hammer spring thinking the other one was just worn out.  Still no joy.

I thought maybe something is wrong with my firing pin.  I replaced the firing pin, firing pin spring and firing pin extension.  No improvement.

Next, I hand seated the primers in 100 rounds to make sure I didn’t have a problem with primers that were not fully seated.  I had many FTF’s in that batch of 100, so it isn’t my ammo. Every round that would not fire in the rifle fired in pistols with no issue.

I started thinking maybe something is wrong with my bolt.  I have noticed that when the bolt is closed on a round there is a little play in the bolt.  I can wiggle it back and forth slightly if I push it.  I tried this with the backup rifle (357) I’m shooting and the bolt does not wiggle at all when a round is chambered.  I tried this on a buddies .45 Colt rifle too and his bolt has no wiggle in it either.  Maybe I’m on to something.  During this process, I noticed a divot in the barrel where the extractor rests when closed. See the attached photos.  Is it possible that divot is causing this problem?  Should I just replace the entire bolt, firing pin, and firing pin extension?  If I replace those, do I need to do anything about head spacing?  I suppose a new barrel may be in order too depending on how devastating that divot is.

I know a good 73 gunsmith and I can probably give this to him to fix, but I do like to be able to fix things myself.  Cowboy gunsmiths aren’t going to be around forever, so I’d like to learn as much as possible before they are all gone. Any help you can offer will be much appreciated.

[Chas B. Wolfson, SASS #11104]

Source of short stroke kit?  Full parts replacement or cut and weld?  

Maybe something related to the short stroke has changed such as a slightly bent lever.

Just something to check before throwing more money at it.

Chas B 

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

37 minutes ago, Chas B. Wolfson, SASS #11104 said:

Source of short stroke kit?  Full parts replacement or cut and weld?  

Maybe something related to the short stroke has changed such as a slightly bent lever.

Just something to check before throwing more money at it.

Chas B 

Unknown.  This rifle belonged to Papa Dave before I bought it. It was already short stroked when I got it.  It ran fine for 3 years after I bought it, so it's difficult for me to believe the short stroke caused the problem.

[Tyrel Cody]

It’s because you’re shooting that heathen smokeyless stuff; switch to black powder…

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kidding!

 

 

I wonder if you’ve bent the lever a little at some point and it’s leaving just enough space between bolt and bullet to not go off. Any way to swap levers with someone and try that?

 

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

12 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

I wonder if you’ve bent the lever a little at some point and it’s leaving just enough space between bolt and bullet to not go off. Any way to swap levers with someone and try that?

I can probably find a lever to swap to for testing.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

32 minutes ago, Lucky Lead Pepper said:

I can probably find a lever to swap to for testing.

Unless it is a cut/weld short stroke.  But I think you would be able to visually identify that with it apart.

[G W Wade]

 

Quick and dirty headspace check.   Push the primer halfway out.  Insert cartridge in chamber a smoothly close action.   Protrusion on primer will equall your headspace.  You can measure with a caliper,   .004 to .006 is prefered.   Any thing over is slop   Headspace is controlled by links,        GW

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

18 minutes ago, G W Wade said:

 

Quick and dirty headspace check.   Push the primer halfway out.  Insert cartridge in chamber a smoothly close action.   Protrusion on primer will equall your headspace.  You can measure with a caliper,   .004 to .006 is prefered.   Any thing over is slop   Headspace is controlled by links,        GW

I was just talking to Jim Bowie about this.  Bending the lever (open) will also decrease headspace, but too far and the lever safety won't work right.  I first heard about that quick and dirty headspace check from Nate Kiowa Jones, neat trick.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

There’s a better way to check headspace.

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

14 minutes ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

There’s a better way to check headspace.

Where does one get one of these or did you make it?

[Boggus Deal #64218]

1 minute ago, Lucky Lead Pepper said:

Where does one get one of these or did you make it?

I make and sell them. PM sent.

[G W Wade]

Boggus Deal--  nice looking tool.   Have large quantity of shims from heavy equipment to make these.  And yes I believe it was NKJ that told me quick and dirty.   Later Jim Bowie didnt like that method,  wanted feeler gage method.  But they both came out the same.  My rifles are all older models with 3 out of 4 requiring longer links from the start.     Good luck       GW

[Dusty Sights, SASS # 2782]

Quote

During this process, I noticed a divot in the barrel where the extractor rests when closed. See the attached photos.  Is it possible that divot is causing this problem?

Mine is a 1992 manufactured Uberti 1873, and it has had this divot in the extractor groove since 1993.

The rifle is stock except for a replacement trigger safety spring.  No problems with feeding, extraction or firing though.

I'm curious as to the cause of your misfortune. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The little chunk missing from the barrel at the extractor cut is not causing you failure-to-fire problems. That breaks out sometimes because the extractor cut is made so the very back edge is paper thin, and any hard contact of the extractor nose and the ramp cut can cause that chip.  It could be polished with a small dremel cutter or polishing tip to take the rough edge off if it bothers you.  You do NOT need a new barrel because of that.

 

Can you take a picture of the rear of a couple of cases showing the primer on those FTF rounds.  That will give a sense of how much firing pin hit you are getting.

 

Was the firing pin broken into two pieces or is the tip broken off and missing? (Sounds like you replaced the FP, but was it "solid" and appeared undamaged when you replaced it?) 

 

Have you cleaned the FP channel in the bolt really well with a solvent and a pipe cleaner?   Crud builds up in there and keeps the FP (even a new one) from going full forward..

 

Have you had an Out Of Battery firing about the time you noted the beginning of FTF problems?  That could indicate a bent lever happened due to the OOB - that is very common, and it usually opens up headspace a little.  Take a picture of the wrist of the action where the lever fits up against the lower tang to show us how much if any gap remains when you hold the action closed.  Since you have a 357 lever, can you take that out and lay it over the lever of your problem gun and see if the noses (where link pin installs) of the levers and the hand loop of the levers line up between the two?   Ideally, the lever should be closing tightly against the lower tang.

 

You wrote:

Quote

  I can wiggle it (the bolt) back and forth slightly if I push it. 

 

That description is not very meaningful.  Do you mean there is some forward and rearward movement of the bolt when action is closed, or do you mean side to side movement?  Slight side to side movement is pretty common.  Forward and back could be a sign of some wear in links or lever or pins.

 

Several parts makers offer an extended length firing pin.  That would be probably the cheapest replacement part which you might try to see if you have too short a  FP protrusion.  The SLIXsprings firing pin is one of those that come "a little longer" than factory spec.  Long Hunter Supply as them in stock.

 

Some comparisons with one of my Uberti 73s that run .45 Colt without ANY FTF problems.  The headspace between a chambered case head and the bolt face, with action closed, measures 0.014".  Feeler gauge method. Firing just a primer in a case also sets the primer back about 0.012" as another rough way to check headspace.  It's a few years old and has typical wear and no OOB occurrences.   That amount of headspace is no where near enough to cause FTF due to light strikes even with the factory firing pin.  David Chicone's reference book, Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West, calls out a head space of 0.006" for a new (Winchester-made) gun or when rebuilding a bolt.  Ubertis I would expect to be about the same.

 

The firing pin protrusion can be checked roughly without taking the gun apart, too.  Open the action half way.  Keep the bolt from moving forward with a pin punch or similar tool held against the bolt face.  Push firmly on the firing pin extension, and the FP will travel it's full stroke forward.  Comparing that protrusion to the cartridge support tab (which should be about 0.065" forward of the bolt face), should let you see if you have 10, 20 30, or 40 thousandths.   30 thousandths works real well in my guns.

 

For the most part, it sounds like you have been throwing parts at the gun before finding out what the problem is.   I'd suggest more inspection, measuring, checking before you buy any more parts.   If you can't do that, then letting an experienced smith take it over is going to be the fastest way to make this right.

 

good luck, GJ

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Also use an eyeball and feel test to compare how fast the hammer falls on your .357 rifle and your .45 Colt.   If the 45 is a lot slower, then you don't have enough spring force (or have too much drag on the hammer) to get a good hammer fall.  Even after putting a new spring in.

 

GJ

[Boggus Deal #64218]

WOW!! Joe, what you’re saying is that you’re going around shooting a gun that is .006-008” out of spec? And posting it on an open forum….

Industry standard on headspace is .006-.008”. Yours is at least double, possibly more.

You might consider telling all the people around you next time you shoot..

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

For shooting our 4K-8K psi loads from a very tough .45 Colt case, there's "no show, nothing to see here."  There's a lot of safe room in that cartridge specification. 

 

good luck, GJ

[Boggus Deal #64218]

2 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

For shooting our 4K-8K psi loads from a very tough .45 Colt case, there's "no show, nothing to see here."  There's a lot of safe room in that cartridge specification. 

 

good luck, GJ

Your “opinion” or industry standards. I know who I’ll trust….

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Well, then, let's see what the MAXIMUM headspace for the .45 Colt is in the SAAMI manufacturer's specs for a new gun.

 

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/SAAMI-Z299.3-2022-Centerfire-Pistol-Revolver-Approved-12-13-2022.pdf

 

Looking on page 50 of the latest.

 

Oh, the max headspace allowed in a new gun to meet standards is 0.074"  measured by including the rim.  So, a 0.060" rim taken away from the headspace of 0.074" leaves a permissible bolt face to case gap of 0.014".   Seems that gun you are so worried about, after several years of use, is still within the standards for a new firearm.  

Why are you attempting to scare people with your posts?   

 

But, back to the OPs real concerns, it would take a pretty large headspace problem to be the root cause of Failure to Fire, with the fairly large firing pin protrusion that is common on the Uberti rifles.   He probably needs to look more at the light strikes and what is causing them.

 

good luck, GJ

[Sedalia Dave]

How much play is there between the firing pin extension and the frame?  Too much play will cause the FP extension to bind when the hammer hits it.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

6 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Well, then, let's see what the MAXIMUM headspace for the .45 Colt is in the SAAMI manufacturer's specs for a new gun.

 

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/SAAMI-Z299.3-2022-Centerfire-Pistol-Revolver-Approved-12-13-2022.pdf

 

Looking on page 50 of the latest.

 

Oh, the max headspace allowed in a new gun to meet standards is 0.074"  measured by including the rim.  So, a 0.060" rim taken away from the headspace of 0.074" leaves a permissible bolt face to case gap of 0.014".   Seems that gun you are so worried about, after several years of use, is still within the standards for a new firearm.  

Why are you attempting to scare people with your posts?   

 

But, back to the OPs real concerns, it would take a pretty large headspace problem to be the root cause of Failure to Fire, with the fairly large firing pin protrusion that is common on the Uberti rifles.   He probably needs to look more at the light strikes and what is causing them.

 

good luck, GJ

Just keeping you honest, Joe. With all the edits, as mentioned elsewhere, who knows what’s right or wrong. 
Trust but verify. 

[Pb Mark]

19 hours ago, Lucky Lead Pepper said:

I know a good 73 gunsmith and I can probably give this to him to fix, but I do like to be able to fix things myself.  Cowboy gunsmiths aren’t going to be around forever, so I’d like to learn as much as possible before they are all gone. Any help you can offer will be much appreciated.

These are very simple rifles.  It takes about 30 minutes to fully tear down, inspect, diagnose.   Get some local help maybe, then hopefully, follow-up post the results.  You replaced the firing pin, so have had the majority of the guts out of the rifle...  My only thought not already mentioned is to read some of the available literature from places like Pioneer Gunworks and others who sell short stroke kits that explain how to fit and time them.  Good knowledge is provided in literature from the builders of the speed parts.

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

13 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Can you take a picture of the rear of a couple of cases showing the primer on those FTF rounds.  That will give a sense of how much firing pin hit you are getting.

I am attaching a photo of one. I shot the others in my pistols, but they all looked like this one does.

 

13 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Was the firing pin broken into two pieces or is the tip broken off and missing? (Sounds like you replaced the FP, but was it "solid" and appeared undamaged when you replaced it?) 

I am attaching photos of the original firing pin and a slix firing pin I had on hand and tried. There was no apparent issue with the original firing pin, it isn't broken and the tip appears to be correct. The slix firing pin I had has a slight curve in it and I think that is preventing it from working properly.  I should probably go ahead an order a new firing pin to have as a spare if nothing else.

 

13 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Have you cleaned the FP channel in the bolt really well with a solvent and a pipe cleaner?   Crud builds up in there and keeps the FP (even a new one) from going full forward..

I haven't used a pipe cleaner, so I will try that.  I did use cleaner and a long cotton swab to get as much gunk out as possible, but it is too big for then narrowest part of the firing pin channel. 

 

13 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Have you had an Out Of Battery firing about the time you noted the beginning of FTF problems?

No OOB issues.

 

13 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Since you have a 357 lever, can you take that out and lay it over the lever of your problem gun and see if the noses (where link pin installs) of the levers and the hand loop of the levers line up between the two?   Ideally, the lever should be closing tightly against the lower tang.

I will do that this weekend.  The lever seems to sit properly and has a little left to right wiggle, but so does the 357 lever.

 

13 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

That description is not very meaningful.  Do you mean there is some forward and rearward movement of the bolt when action is closed, or do you mean side to side movement?

Mine has a slight side to side movement only.

 

 

 

I really appreciate your very detailed response.  You've given me a lot of useful information.  I plan to work on it some more this weekend and maybe using some of your information, I can get to the bottom of it.  If not, I will hand it over to the expert.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

That crack and divot on the bolt face is not normal.   You might try to find out if that allows the lower section of the bolt to move slightly - depending on how deep and where the crack runs to inside the bolt, there could be some binding the FP travel.  That bolt would probably be replaced if a good gunsmith had it in their hands.  A toggle gun has a pretty small bolt, and it takes close to chamber pressure every shot.

 

You indeed have a very light firing pin indent on that round in the picture.   

 

Is the lever safety still operational within the action?  Are you running the gun  "podium position" fast? The picture of the closed lever does not show whether the front boss of the lever loop is touching the lower tang, due to shadows cast onto the background rag.  Check that the lever is able to close far enough to ALWAYS disengage the lever/trigger safety when you close the action.   You could have a slight bend in the lever that would let you get good FP strikes with lever really pulled up hard, but not if the lever is being run at speed.  Or you could be tripping the trigger before getting action closed or right when you are beginning to open it.   If the FTF only occurs when running at match speed, and you have been trying to shoot faster recently, lots of pards have that particular problem and have to learn to keep a hundred milliseconds between trigger pulls and the action motions.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Another thing that happens with a 73 is that folks do not keep a little grease on the firing pin extension, and the soft metal of the frame egg-shapes a little from the impact of the hammer on the (usually never square to the hammer) end of the FPE.  Can take 20,000 rounds to get damage, but if the end of the FPE has much up and down play with the action nearly closed, could be a problem there.   That egg-shaping allows the FPE to absorb too much of the hammer strike, and sends it into the frame instead of the FP.  Usually that is a consistent FTF kind of problem, though.

 

good luck, GJ

[Lead Monger]

The broken bolt would drive me crazy. I would have to replace it.

[Shawnee Hills]

Is that a crack or a file swipe?  Looks like it’s in line with the taper of the tab so may have been caused by a careless fitter. 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

You did not mention what brand your primers are or if you changed brands in that last problem year.  For cowboy guns, there is a huge difference in hardness between brands. 

 

Also, the recess below the chamber where the lower extractor tab fits looks deformed and possibly occluded in the photos.  Could the tab be deformed, or crud in the recess holding the bolt back?

 

Finally, have you disassembled the toggles?  are any of the toggle pins bent or deformed?  

 

(Personally, I would be hesitant to fire any rifle with a bolt that does not close tightly, unless you like hot gasses in your face -- or worse)

[Tyrel Cody]

1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

You did not mention what brand your primers are or if you changed brands in that last problem year.  For cowboy guns, there is a huge difference in hardness between brands. 

 

Also, the recess below the chamber where the lower extractor tab fits looks deformed and possibly occluded in the photos.  Could the tab be deformed, or crud in the recess holding the bolt back?

 

Finally, have you disassembled the toggles?  are any of the toggle pins bent or deformed?  

 

(Personally, I would be hesitant to fire any rifle with a bolt that does not close tightly, unless you like hot gasses in your face -- or worse)

Read it again…

 

Primer brand mentioned immediately.

[Kingsley]

To expand on a previous comment, here's a worn out receiver.  First pic.  It had been my main gun for over ten years, and had well over 100k rounds through it.  I started getting light strikes and jacking many rounds.  The FPE was binding when running the gun at full speed.  

 

But the good thing is, it's easy to fix.  I bored/reamed the frame, inserted a bronze sleeve and re-reamed the sleeve.  FPE is 100's time tighter than Uberti could ever do.  returned gun to main gun and hopefully get another 100k through it.  If not, knock out sleeve and re-sleeve the frame .

 

Cardboard

 

 

Edited June 8 by Kingsley

[Kingsley]

Just a quick add to my comment.  Since this is Papa Dave's gun.  I'm sure there are a lot of rounds fired through it, just another thing to check.  My gun is back to running like a Swiss watch.  Well, actually Swiss watch's really run like crap.  But great old school saying.  My gun is running great since this repair.

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Nice fix!  One I have recommended to folks as well!  GJ

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

On 6/7/2024 at 10:40 AM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Is the lever safety still operational within the action?

Yes, the lever safety is operational and behaves normally. The lever does engage it every time.

 

On 6/7/2024 at 12:12 PM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

if the end of the FPE has much up and down play with the action nearly closed, could be a problem there.

I'm not sure how much movement is too much, but there is some.  This is certainly a possibility.

On 6/7/2024 at 10:40 AM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

If the FTF only occurs when running at match speed,

It happens at all speeds, so not a timing issue. The FTF will happen when closing the lever fully and taking my time.

 

I have noticed that the bolt moves slightly up and right, towards the 2:00 position when I close the lever.  See the attached video. It is kind of hard to see in the video, it's more noticeable in person. The bolt on the .357 backup gun does not move like that, it goes straight forward.  Maybe whatever is causing this movement is my problem.

 

I also noticed some groves in the top of the receiver that the bolt may catch on.  Those may be tooling marks and nothing to worry about, not sure.  

 

I did disassemble the gun and clean the bolt thoroughly with a pipe cleaner to make sure nothing was causing the firing pin to snag.  The behavior is the same. I fired the first round yesterday with no problem, second round was a light primer strike FTF.

 

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

On 6/8/2024 at 10:53 AM, Kingsley said:

Just a quick add to my comment.  Since this is Papa Dave's gun.  I'm sure there are a lot of rounds fired through it, just another thing to check.  My gun is back to running like a Swiss watch.  Well, actually Swiss watch's really run like crap.  But great old school saying.  My gun is running great since this repair.

 

 

That is a nice fix! That would certainly be beyond my capabilities.  

 

Papa Dave told me before I bought the gun that he used it for Wild Bunch, so he probably didn't shoot it a ton.  It is a 2008ish model, so maybe he bought it from someone that ran a lot of rounds through it before he got it.  Since I started shooting it I've probably put about 12k rounds through it.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

That up and down movement of the bolt is the extractor hitting the extractor ramp in the back of the barrel.  Not that unusual.  Lots of 73s do that.  It does indicate loose tolerances or some wear.   From the video that is not the cause of your light hits.  What is happening is the bolt is aligning itself with the certerline of the cartridge and primer.