Black powder 45/70s

[Slow Poke]

My son has a fascination with black powder. We are looking to get into the long range rifle matches. We found a 45/70 but never having loaded rifle black powder shells where is a good starting point? We will be using a 405 grain cast head. Is ff the best choice or fff? What dipper size?

What kinda lube for the heads( I will be casting them)? I anticipate ranges of 200 to 500 yards, ballpark. 

Thanks in advance 

           Slow poke 

[Buckshot Sheridan]

1 1/2F or 2F, and SPG lube. 

[Uriah, SASS # 53822]

Slow Poke,

 This is how I load the 4570.

1. Fire form brass, no resizing. 
2. 20:1 or 25:1 lead tin, .459 sizing, vigilante lube or SPG
3. CCI BR2 primers. Winchester second.
4. Primers wads under the primer, newsprint. (You could dispense with that, little effect)
5. Expand slightly - the case will chamber, and accept the bullet. That’s takes trial and error to get right.
6. Used a drop tube. 64 gr 2F, you want to compress the powder .05 - .10”
7. Vegetable wads, topped with newsprint wads (prevents the wad from sticking).
8. Used a compression die. Don’t use the bullet to compressed the powder.
9. Seat the bullet. I only have to use the straight line seated on 1 in 50.
10. I generally will you the cartridges in a box, bullet side up, for two weeks to a month. That way the lube sticks so I can withdraw them, and not lose the bullet.

 

For years I use a blow tube on the 45-70. Had to go to wiping with the 38-50. If you go to the blow tube, deep breaths. The air in the lungs are 100% humidity, the air in the airway is not. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Better choices than that 405.

Look at Postell and Creedmoor profile. 

Load with black until you compress the powder about 1/8" when the bullet is seated.

What do you call long range?

What rifle are you looking at? 

[Slow Poke]

5 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Better choices than that 405.

Look at Postell and Creedmoor profile. 

Load with black until you compress the powder about 1/8" when the bullet is seated.

What do you call long range?

What rifle are you looking at? 

He has a 74 sharps (iab manufacturer)

I am looking at a rolling block possibly.

200 to 500 yards I anticipate.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Just now, slow poke gear said:

He has a 74 sharps (iab manufacturer)

I am looking at a rolling block possibly.

200 to 500 yards I anticipate.

Get rid of that IAB.

Can't get any parts for them.

You want a barrel R.O.T. of at least 1/18.

Do not use smokeless powder bullet lube with BP.

[Cholla]

IAB had good years and bad years. Taylor's used to sell them. The bad years were towards the end of their run. Many have come to feel IAB stands for It's Always Broken.

[Artemus Von Schutze]

2F, I started with a brass powder measure that worked fine (like for muzzle loaders). Compression die is awesome, can be made from Lee die and plug from track of the wolf. If you are casting, you might look at the Lee 405 HB mold. SPG lube. If you get the mold and want the most fun version, go for a Springfield trap door. You guys are welcome to try mine. It might be taller then Jed....

 

I don't know that I would even consider a primer card, but using a 3/32 drill bit to oversize the flash hole would be good. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

7 hours ago, Artemus Von Schutze said:

2F, I started with a brass powder measure that worked fine (like for muzzle loaders). Compression die is awesome, can be made from Lee die and plug from track of the wolf. If you are casting, you might look at the Lee 405 HB mold. SPG lube. If you get the mold and want the most fun version, go for a Springfield trap door. You guys are welcome to try mine. It might be taller then Jed....

 

I don't know that I would even consider a primer card, but using a 3/32 drill bit to oversize the flash hole would be good. 

Lots of us use a over primer wad of paper at the bottom of the case.

Montana Vintage Arms makes a fantastic powder measure.

Always 'listen' to your target. 

[Silver Creek Jack]

Good advice above, I highly recommend the book “Shooting Buffalo Rifles of The Old West” by Mike Venturino. Read it then read it again, it answers all the questions you have and a lot more!

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

 

No one has mentioned sights. 500 yards you will need a good vernier sight. Adjusts for wind and elevation. Front sight . a hooded sight that has inserts for various light conditions and a spirit level to keep the rifle square to the target.  About $500. See Montana Vintage Arms for sights.

 

You didn't say if you were wanting to just bang steel, plinking, or get your hits down to 1 or 2 MOA.  

 

405 bullets loose accuracy after about 300 yards.

 

 

[Slow Poke]

16 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

 

No one has mentioned sights. 500 yards you will need a good vernier sight. Adjusts for wind and elevation. Front sight . a hooded sight that has inserts for various light conditions and a spirit level to keep the rifle square to the target.  About $500. See Montana Vintage Arms for sights.

 

You didn't say if you were wanting to just bang steel, plinking, or get your hits down to 1 or 2 MOA.  

 

405 bullets loose accuracy after about 300 yards.

 

 

The shoot we are looking at has knock down buffalo targets. Not planing on shooting for group size

[Bailey Creek,5759]

I like 500 Gr, RCBS BULLET MOLD.

With SPG Lube. 0.30 wad. Compression die.

Drop tube. 

Powder Swiss 1 1/2 72 Grains.

Pull Rifle tight into Shoulder.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 hours ago, slow poke gear said:

The shoot we are looking at has knock down buffalo targets. Not planing on shooting for group size

What sights are on the Sharps?

You want Soule type for easy windage and elevation.

Also, a Hadley Eye Cup is good to have.

[Slow Poke]

18 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

What sights are on the Sharps?

You want Soule type for easy windage and elevation.

Also, a Hadley Eye Cup is good to have.

We are going make a trip to lee shavers place to get the sight for the sharps 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 minute ago, slow poke gear said:

We are going make a trip to lee shavers place to get the sight for the sharps 

Where are you located. 

I'm in SW, SGF, Mo.

[Uriah, SASS # 53822]

54 minutes ago, Bailey Creek,5759 said:

I like 500 Gr, RCBS BULLET MOLD.

With SPG Lube. 0.30 wad. Compression die.

Drop tube. 

Powder Swiss 1 1/2 72 Grains.

Pull Rifle tight into Shoulder.

Winchester cases?

I get 63.5 1.5F Swiss and just touch it, .012-.02”, with Jones 535gr 45001

1180 fps with of a REM or Starline cases. Like smokeless, the smaller the case the more efficient it is.

 

Uriah

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

Fill it up and Squeeze it in.

That's all there is to it 

[Slow Poke]

4 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Where are you located. 

I'm in SW, SGF, Mo.

Between st. Loius and columbia 

[Slow Poke]

12 hours ago, Silver Creek Jack said:

Good advice above, I highly recommend the book “Shooting Buffalo Rifles of The Old West” by Mike Venturino. Read it then read it again, it answers all the questions you have and a lot more!

Just got it on order.

Thanks for the tip jack

[ORNERY OAF]

SPG Black Powder Cartridge Reloading Primer,

revised 9th edition, 20 plus new pages

by Mike Venturino & Steve Garbe

 

[Silver Creek Jack]

43 minutes ago, slow poke gear said:

Just got it on order.

Thanks for the tip jack

Anytime, let me know what you think of it.

[sarcasmn]

Paul A Matthews also has some good books on the subject. 

[Slow Poke]

On 3/15/2024 at 8:09 PM, Silver Creek Jack said:

Anytime, let me know what you think of it.

I am about half way through, it's actually a really good read looking forward to trying some black powder rounds out .

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

@slow poke gear All the smoke we made at Booneville got to ya, didn't it?

Do not try to resist the Dark Side. 

[Burn Through]

I think maybe you should load a days worth for him to try the f c category .. 

[Slow Poke]

5 hours ago, Burn Through said:

I think maybe you should load a days worth for him to try the f c category .. 

Actually just did that 2 weeks ago. 

44-40s 2.3 Cc diper 

44 Russians 1.6 diper 

12 ga brass hulls 100 grains black 

Damn we were making some smoke

[Burn Through]

good deal bet that was a hoot

[Slow Poke]

59 minutes ago, Burn Through said:

good deal bet that was a hoot