Stage writing primer

[Bad Bascomb, SASS # 47,494]

  Some of the newer shooters in our club are interested in beginning to write stages for our monthly matches.  I recall a concise and well-written Do's and Don't's article

from some time ago addressing that subject.  Darned if I can find it.  Don't want to reinvent the wheel.....

Anyone have a link or idea?

[Dilli GaHoot Galoot]

This maybe?

 

https://marauder.homestead.com/files/Stages.htm

 

ETA:   While I was reading through that I had another thought in mind and wouldn't you know it, I found this:

• Never try to affect the outcomes in favor of 'these guys' or 'those guys' by putting stuff into a stage to help or hinder. write 'em right and let 'em rock!

 

My opinion on that is not SASS related, just from years of shooting, but if you have match after match that caters to one or even a couple of The In Crowd shooters strengths folks will notice and start to lose interest.  Sure, it's fun for the folks winning and often times it's unintentional, but good shooters shouldn't need a cheat code and new shooters (at least the ones worth getting to know) shouldn't mind getting bested by better shooters if the stages are about shooting and not about something like an abnormal ability to remember a tortuous shooting sequence or 40 yard speed runs

 

 

Yeah, yeah, I know no one in SASS sets up stages with a 40 yard mad dash, I was just going for a hyperbolic example to make the point  

 

[Circuit Rider Jeff]

This is the best we found a while back and have been using ever since.

http://www.damascusiwla.org/dwr/SASSClasses/SASS%20Classes/Stage%20writing%20101/stage%20writing%20101.htm

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

9 hours ago, VinnieBoomBah said:

This maybe?

 

https://marauder.homestead.com/files/Stages.htm

 

ETA:   While I was reading through that I had another thought in mind and wouldn't you know it, I found this:

• Never try to affect the outcomes in favor of 'these guys' or 'those guys' by putting stuff into a stage to help or hinder. write 'em right and let 'em rock!

 

My opinion on that is not SASS related, just from years of shooting, but if you have match after match that caters to one or even a couple of The In Crowd shooters strengths folks will notice and start to lose interest.  Sure, it's fun for the folks winning and often times it's unintentional, but good shooters shouldn't need a cheat code and new shooters (at least the ones worth getting to know) shouldn't mind getting bested by better shooters if the stages are about shooting and not about something like an abnormal ability to remember a tortuous shooting sequence or 40 yard speed runs

 

 

Yeah, yeah, I know no one in SASS sets up stages with a 40 yard mad dash, I was just going for a hyperbolic example to make the point  

 

 

It's actually the other way around.

 

But anyway, if new shooters want to learn how to write stages, have them travel around to other matches for a few years...and learn.

 

Phantom

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Circuit Rider Jeff said:

This is the best we found a while back and have been using ever since.

http://www.damascusiwla.org/dwr/SASSClasses/SASS%20Classes/Stage%20writing%20101/stage%20writing%20101.htm

This is old stage writing...and there are a fair amount of things that are just not...good.

 

Traveling and experiencing other matches in other States...Regions...will help one recognize what's Good and what's Bad.

 

Phantom

[Circuit Rider Jeff]

Well what's great about this country is you're allowed to have an opinion. In match directing it works well around here to have flow and variety to keep it interesting and moving along. Moving along is important so you don't end up with a match that's to long and wears everybody out. There are some really good tips that can be had from all the match directors in SASS from all over. Vary your distances from stage to stage we found that the fast shooters will always be fast no matter the stage. So design for the masses and grow the game. Move safely, then give them a break with a stand and deliver, monthly matches need to be fun, most will never attend a state or national match and that's ok. We've got to compete with IDPA and 3 gun ect... so make it fun.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 minutes ago, Circuit Rider Jeff said:

Well what's great about this country is you're allowed to have an opinion. In match directing it works well around here to have flow and variety to keep it interesting and moving along.

Are you addressing these comments to me?

 

First...assuming you were...my comments didn't reference any one point on the...holy list...that you linked to. So why bring up only two points?

 

Secondly, it would be far more beneficial to perhaps ask why I said what I said. I'd be glad to bring up a few issues that are just...not that great when writing stages.

 

Phantom

[Circuit Rider Jeff]

No Phantom sorry I am not responding to your comments, just looking to help out some new friends to the game. You can pm me with more info though I'd like to know your opinion to help me make our shoots better.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

13 minutes ago, Circuit Rider Jeff said:

No Phantom sorry I am not responding to your comments, just looking to help out some new friends to the game. You can pm me with more info though I'd like to know your opinion to help me make our shoots better.

Many of the items on the list are handled with SASS "Conventions" If folks would take the time to understand what these Conventions are, stage writing/explaining would be much simpler. For example, folks will write into a stage "make rifle/shotgun safe". Well, there are SASS rules on how a long gun is "safe". Secondly, what is the alternative?? Make rifle/shotgun unsafe??

 

Here's one from your list: Keep movement laterally, toward the unloading table. So if your Unloading Table is always on the right side, you should then write only left to right stages?? This is silly. And what if your club has berms...are you supposed to not have downrange movement...only lateral movement?

 

It's all good to have things that one can read to get an idea of what stage writing is all about. But if you don't travel...experience...ask questions...take notes...then you'll probably never be a good stage writer. It's kinda like all those folks that take ROI and ROII classes and then think that they're ready to take the timer.

 

Phantom

 

 

[Circuit Rider Jeff]

That is a good example Phantom, I was told early on to read the stage out loud to myself before finalizing it for the match. It has to make sense and be safe all around to avoid issues. The other thing to consider is some folks will hear what your read and be on the same wavelength as you and others are going to be confused, so it is best to spell it out very plainly even simpler than you think it must be to take away and questioners that will pick apart your scenarios. I have seen a few ruckus' between shooters caused by just this, so I would say keep it simple to be safe.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 minutes ago, Circuit Rider Jeff said:

That is a good example Phantom, I was told early on to read the stage out loud to myself before finalizing it for the match. It has to make sense and be safe all around to avoid issues. The other thing to consider is some folks will hear what your read and be on the same wavelength as you and others are going to be confused, so it is best to spell it out very plainly even simpler than you think it must be to take away and questioners that will pick apart your scenarios. I have seen a few ruckus' between shooters caused by just this, so I would say keep it simple to be safe.

So making a stage as open as possible is, in my opinion, the way to go. Write in only those things that you as the write want...leave the rest up to the shooter to decide. Makes the game far more interesting than defining every little thing so that everyone pretty much as to engage the Stage in exactly the same way...ugh...hate that!

 

Good on you for trying to be a better Stage Writer. Wish more Stage Writers would take this philosophy.

 

Phantom

[Texas Maverick]

13 hours ago, VinnieBoomBah said:

 

Yeah, yeah, I know no one in SASS sets up stages with a 40 yard mad dash, I was just going for a hyperbolic example to make the point  

 

You evidently haven't shot HOW (Hell on Wheels) in Cheyenne, WY. LOL They use up all the land available for their stages and you best have you best running boots on. The match is great but you do get a complete workout.

 

TM

[Assassin]

4 hours ago, Texas Maverick said:

You evidently haven't shot HOW (Hell on Wheels) in Cheyenne, WY. LOL They use up all the land available for their stages and you best have you best running boots on. The match is great but you do get a complete workout.

 

TM

If you've got big bays, use them. Hell On Wheels is a shooters match, it's not for everyone. However, no one has to run, they can mosey. Even with the movement the times are equivalent to those matches with little to no movement. And, best of all it's in Wyoming. 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

13 minutes ago, Assassin said:

If you've got big bays, use them. Hell On Wheels is a shooters match, it's not for everyone. However, no one has to run, they can mosey. Even with the movement the times are equivalent to those matches with little to no movement. And, best of all it's in Wyoming. 

It’s on my bucket list to shoot someday.

[Texas Maverick]

21 minutes ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

It’s on my bucket list to shoot someday.

You won't be sorry.

 

TM

[Texas Maverick]

35 minutes ago, Assassin said:

If you've got big bays, use them. Hell On Wheels is a shooters match, it's not for everyone. However, no one has to run, they can mosey. Even with the movement the times are equivalent to those matches with little to no movement. And, best of all it's in Wyoming. 

Not a negative, I just haven't had to move as much as I have anywhere else as I did at HOW. True, run or walk, it is up to the shooter but when you get into the match adrenalin takes over and you move as fast as your body will allow.

 

TM

[Assassin]

2 hours ago, Texas Maverick said:

Not a negative, I just haven't had to move as much as I have anywhere else as I did at HOW. True, run or walk, it is up to the shooter but when you get into the match adrenalin takes over and you move as fast as your body will allow.

 

TM

Didn't take it as a negative, more of a positive. I'll  be a Silver Senior in June, and not ready to mosey. Movement will attract new and younger shooters. 

 

 

[Bad Bascomb, SASS # 47,494]

  Thanks for all the positive input and additional links.  One of our club members found 'stage writing 101' by Chuckaroo, which is the article I was trying to remember.

Appreciate all the helpful discussion.

 

BB

[Sixgun Seamus]

22 minutes ago, Bad Bascomb, SASS # 47,494 said:

  Thanks for all the positive input and additional links.  One of our club members found 'stage writing 101' by Chuckaroo, which is the article I was trying to remember.

Appreciate all the helpful discussion.

 

BB

I attended a stage writing seminar put on by Chuckaroo at a SASS Convention. I picked up a lot of good info and direction there. The best advice is still what Phantom said, go to bigger matches or at least try to get copies of shooters handbooks from State and above shoots. See how those are written. A lot of things can be covered by your stage conventions and cover those before the match. Keep instructions concise yet as brief as possible. Have an experienced shooter read your stages to see if the are easily understood. Use the KISS method - Keep It Simple Stupid.

[Kid Rich]

I like stages that are written so the shooter has the latitude to shoot it the way they want.

kR

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

7 hours ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

I attended a stage writing seminar put on by Chuckaroo at a SASS Convention. I picked up a lot of good info and direction there. The best advice is still what Phantom said, go to bigger matches or at least try to get copies of shooters handbooks from State and above shoots. See how those are written. A lot of things can be covered by your stage conventions and cover those before the match. Keep instructions concise yet as brief as possible. Have an experienced shooter read your stages to see if the are easily understood. Use the KISS method - Keep It Simple Stupid.

I would add a caveat - just because a stage is written and present in a larger match DOES NOT mean they are good stages or WELL written.

 

I shot EOT (a few years ago) and experienced some of the poorest stage writing I have ever encountered.

 

I would make the same statement for certain Winter Ranges, Regionals, State Matches and various annuals as well.

 

And before my nose gets too far in the air - I have written my fair share of questionable stages as well.

 

The best tool I can give you is examine other peoples stages - ask someone whose stage writing you enjoy to look at the shooters book from other matches.

 

Give your opinion of each stsge and let them guide you thru each stage to see if you missed anything.

 

This critical eye method allows you to pick up on clunky wording - unclear instruction and weird flow.

 

I am not a fan of brevity when it comes to stage writing - you don't need to write a book; but you are allowed to use as many words as you feel necessary to ensure a complete understanding of your expectations of the stage engagement.

 

Allow for some creativity on the shooters part - but every stage should not be a wide open free for all affair.

Shooters choice stages are nicely offset with a bit of regimentation on the next.

 

There is nothing wrong with a round count stage - there is nothing wrong with a specific sequence of engagement.

But keep in mind - the more wide open the stage; the more variance you have to accept from your shooters and the more opportunity they have to do something you did not expect or predict.

 

Movement is fun - more positions to shoot from is better then fewer.

Track meets suck and movement that is more than 4-5 paces between positions is unnecessary and begins to favor certain groups over others.

 

Shotgun is a blast - but too many shotgun will slow your match and irritate the BP shooters.

 

Make sure to consider the time impact from everything in your stage and dont allow non shooting components (movement, prop manipulation, etc.) to have more impact on the time than the shooting.

 

Examine every stage, transition and movement as a Duelist, Gunfighter, Supported shooter.

Think about the effect certain actions will have on blackpowder vs smokeless shooters.

Think about how a stage design may affect left handers and right handers - look at your props, tables, windows, staging platforms and consider the differing heights of a 8 yr old Buckerette vs an adult.

 

And remember the best written stage means nothing if the steel is set poorly.

Size and distances matter.

 

Make it fun - if it comes down to a choice between complex and simple; simple is always preferable.

 

If it reads as a "P" trap - it is one.

If you have to justify your stage with, "It shoots better than it reads" - either change it or explain it better.

 

If I have to be standing in front of the stage for it to make sense - theres a problem.

And lastly - your steel set "drawing" should MATCH the reality of the bay actual steel set.

Your shooters should be able to use their book to prepare for the stage and match - If your drawings don't look like the steel set and too many items are needing changed or require differing directions to be added during posse marshal instructions; this tells me the match was poorly written, poorly reviewed and poorly set.

[Sixgun Seamus]

Creeker, Ten Bears said it best, "There is iron in your words".

 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

10 hours ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

I attended a stage writing seminar put on by Chuckaroo at a SASS Convention. I picked up a lot of good info and direction there. The best advice is still what Phantom said, go to bigger matches or at least try to get copies of shooters handbooks from State and above shoots. See how those are written. A lot of things can be covered by your stage conventions and cover those before the match. Keep instructions concise yet as brief as possible. Have an experienced shooter read your stages to see if the are easily understood. Use the KISS method - Keep It Simple Stupid.

See underlined above.  What looks good to you, may be iffy to someone else. Have a trusted pard (or two) take a look at your stages before you post em, have discussion and make edits accordingly.

[Texas Maverick]

11 hours ago, Assassin said:

Didn't take it as a negative, more of a positive. I'll  be a Silver Senior in June, and not ready to mosey. Movement will attract new and younger shooters. 

 

 

I shot it in 2021 and had a bad back. I have 5 bulging discs and just started pain treatment so had a rough time negotiating all the stages but I managed to do it and even have a clean match. I am looking forward to doing it again now that my back is under control. I am 73 and will be 74 when I hopefully make it back next year. Moving a lot better but will never be able to keep up with the younguns.

 

TM

[Too Tall Bob]

There’s lots of good advice here. Only 1 thing missing and that is:

You aren’t writing stages because you enjoy them - you are writing stages for your audience to enjoy. What you “personally” might enjoy may not necessarily be what your audience will. 

[wyliefoxEsquire]

Another thought.

Ask to read the stages for the posse.  Then answer the questions.  Learn from the questions that are asked.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Grow thick skin.  You will always catch criticism from somebody, especially any time you try something new.  Use critics as learning tools.  However, if you never try, you’ll never succeed.

[Bad Bascomb, SASS # 47,494]

  Thank you all for the great input.  It will be a solid base for our new writers. 

Our club has more traditional stages for the 3rd Saturday shoot, and a more "push the envelope" flavor for the 1st Saturday events.  Here we try out new props and different innovations to see if they work......or not.  Two different groups write for each event so as to help prevent burnout and spread the responsibilities around.  Makes for fresh and fun events.

We have 8 dedicated stages with 5 facades and all have berms. There is a maximum range of 85 yards, so we have lots to play with.   On the far berm we have life-size steel buffalo and bear targets.  Great fun for the occasional rifle, and even pistol shot.

 

Come see us some time.  Robbersroostvigilantes.com