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Advice from a know-it-all.


Fallon Kid

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This last weekend I only got through one stage. I was using Mason Conversions 38 cal. The problem was one gun would roll through 5 cylinders and get stuck on the 6th cylinder. I was using 20 gn 3FFF.  I did some research and wouldn’t you know it, the one thing I did not know about these guns, LOL is the wedge for Umberti Masons are serialized. They fit a bit different from my other open tops.

I’m sure 99% of the folks here know how to properly install the wedge but for the 1% like me, maybe you don’t have to learn the hard way. I just assumed that installing the wedge, the tighter the better. Not so. To install the wedge correctly, after the wife is done cleaning the gun, and you are assembling. Install the wedge till the holding screw (with the flat side) can be tightened and is in the grooved out area in the wedge. Tighten the screw and then tap wedge from the right side to snugly touch the flat on the groove in the wedge.

I got this info fm a tech rep representing Uberti. The reason for the serialized wedges is when the wedge is snug against the holding screw, the correct head space is obtained (mine is about .020) and cylinder to frame interface is aligned.

And yes I did test fire prior to using. 

wedge.jpg

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18 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

The reason they do not fit correctly is because the arbors are too short.

I roiled up some alum foil into a ball, stuffed it in the arbor hole to get the proper fit! The “elegant” solution is to use a Dillon locator button. Attached to cylinder arbor, then grind it to proper thickness. 

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Lol I thought this was a post by Phantom  !

But I see he already chimed in and set things straight lol :D

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6 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I roiled up some alum foil into a ball, stuffed it in the arbor hole to get the proper fit! The “elegant” solution is to use a Dillon locator button. Attached to cylinder arbor, then grind it to proper thickness. 

Who do you think came up with that fix?

 

 

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1 minute ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Who do you think came up with that fix?

 

 

I couldn’t remember who did the article on the Dillon locator button. Certainly a neat solution. 

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Appreciate the feedback but having senior moment about why you would want to fit or alter the arbor. The Mason wedges are different. Most wedges on open tops have a spring clip interfacing on the right side and I understand how you would want to seek the correct wedge insertion for that type. The Mason wedge is machined in the factory and unique to the gun. The correct fit of the wedge is made when the wedge is tapped on the right side (like you are tapping it out) and rests against the holding screw.

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Hi Fallon,

 

Well, here we go.  Yes.  And.  No.  The Open Top (specific not a Cap Gun) and the Mason wedges are made differently from Cap Gun wedges.  Apparently you know that.  They do not fit correctly because they can't.  Depending on your view, either the Arbor is too short, or the bore in the barrel lug is too deep.  The parts DO NOT seat properly.

 

Now, the reason you received the answer you did from Uberti,  is because the fit (it is suppose to fit solid) of the Arbor to the Barrel is abominable.  Not even close.  Unless you correct the Arbor fit, the wedge fit will NEVER be correct.  You need to sit down and READ the information provided by Larsen E. Pettifogger.  Unless you correct the fit, EVERY time you take the gun down to clean, you get a "different" gun when you put it back together.  Did I mention "READ" the information from Larsen E Pettifogger?  Oh, well then, sit down and READ the information from Larsen E. Pettifogger.  There is another cheap seats way to fix the fit but I ain't gonna go into that here.

 

Oh yea, just for FYIs, Uberty built Cap Guns have exactly the same Abomnable Barrel to Arbor fit, and have for DECADES.  Uberti has never seen fit to fix it. 

Edited by Colorado Coffinmaker
Add an extra t=Tid Bit
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30 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

...  Uberti has never seen fit to fix it. 

 

On the other hand, the last two conversions I bought seem to have the proper arbor fit.  So maybe they did fix it?  I've heard of several other folks saying their newer guns were also correct.  Maybe it depends on when they were made.  On my older conversions, I did the "simple" fix (as suggested by Coffinmaker several years ago - thank you!) which is to drop a #10 split washer down the arbor hole.  Works fine.  Just remember it is there so when you take the gun apart to clean it, you don't lose it.

 

Pettifogger's articles on the opentops are great, but the method mentioned for checking the arbor length won't work on my guns because when you turn the barrel sideways the arbor is too tight and the barrel cannot be pushed on to the arbor all the way.  

 

Fallon Kid, you can find Pettifogger's articles in the (hard to find) FAQ section.  Here ya go:

 

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Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Thank you for the info. Wow, I had no idea. So much to take in right now so unable to even make an intelligent response or comment other than to take my ‘know it all’ ball cap and put in back in the closet. LOL The absent bit of data I did not put out initially is one of the guns out of the box was VERY difficult to remove barrel. At the time I attributed it to rough machining/dirt/no lube etc. I used wet paper to smooth surfaces and now able to pull apart but still I would say stiff as compared to other open tops. Is a NIB gun that is hard to separate indicative of this problem described in the file you gave me/us?   The other gun came apart without comment.

Again, Thank You. I am studying the PDF file tonight. I will let my oldest dog look at a copy and compare notes in the AM LOL.  I do have to give another WOW. Every time I have a problem, this site is remarkable in the wealth of knowledge and experience. Very humbling I must confess.  

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The barrel being difficult to remove when new is pretty common.  And being a conversion, you can't use the rammer to help separate the barrel like on a cap gun.  One trick I use is to take a dowel (5/16" will just fit in a .357 bore), put it down the barrel until it rests against the recoil shield, then tap the end of the dowel while holding the barrel with your other hand.  Be sure the frame of the gun is over your lap or something soft because it may drop off when the barrel separates.  A squib rod would probably work for this as well.

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im thankful you all know it and are willing to share it so i can know it too , one day i might be able to say i know it all , but i doubt ill live that long , seriously thamks for all the info i get here 

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The reason the barrel is hard to remove is slip shod machining of the Arbor and the Bore in the Barrel.  There are burrs in there that need removed as well as on the Arbor.  Use a home-made flap sander with 320 Wet Dry in the Barrel bore and same same 320 to smooth the slot edges on the Arbor.

 

To remove a recalcitrant barrel assembly, take a spring Clothes Pin apart, stick em back to front in the lower Barrel/Cylinder gap and tap them together.  The opposing wedges will separate the barrel really easy.  Then do the above polishing.

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Beginning to understand the problem about the arbor problem with Uberti open tops. Been trying different fixes. I appreciate the ‘locator pin’ fix but a bit complex to perform in my situation. I also noticed the bottom of the arbor channel in the barrel assy is not flat but concaved. This does not make for a good interface for a flat surface IE: locator pin against a curved surface(bottom of arbor channel). This is not a big problem as when the gun is being fired this interface is in tension and no stresses are being imparted.  What does alert me is removing any parent material in the arbor (drilling hole for locator pin).  Drilling a hole in the end of the arbor weakens the area between wedge hole and fwd end of arbor. When gun is fired this area is in compression and I’m pretty sure there is enough material there to withstand pressures of normal BP forces but rather not remove any material if can be avoided.

What I have concluded as the main problem is there is space between the arbor and bottom of the arbor channel/barrel assy. To fix, this space needs to be taken up or shimmed so that there is a positive stop when the barrel assy is fitted to the receiver.

I tried several ideas but the one that works for me is a fitted lock washer. I tried a flat washer initially but a lock washer appears to work best. I filed a washer the approximate diameter so that it would wedge in place with minimal force. I then filed the flat surface of the lock washer to about the premeasurements taken with depth gage. Repeated until barrel assy rested correctly against  receiver as shown in your PDF files. I tested by assembling gun and installing wedge. And then tapping wedge in to determine if there was any slack and cylinder binding. There was none. By chance the wedge cutout interfaced with the wedge holding screw were almost line-on-line and holding screw tightened as designed.

Again, thank you as I would not have been on right track had not the good folk here gave me the advice I needed. I do appreciate.

 

washer1.jpg

washer2.jpg

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There ya go.  The "Cheap Seats" trick I lauded to earlier was to drop a #10 Stainless split washer down the Barrel Bore then seat the Arbor against it.  Then the Barrel to Cylinder gap doesn't change every time you seat the wedge.

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I use a thick flat washer. Put it on a long maching screw secured with a couple of nuts. Chuck it into my drill and then "turn" it down to the proper diameter. Test fit it to make sure it is thicker than needed. I then clean both it and the arbor with a good dereaser. I then glue it to the end of the arbor using Windshield rear view mirror adhesive. be sure to follow the directions on the package.

 

Allow to dry for 24 hours and then using a flat file I adjust it until the barrel properly fits the receiver.

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On 11/17/2023 at 3:03 PM, Fallon Kid said:

 

........................... after the wife is done cleaning the gun...........................

 

 

 

Yap, yap, yap, talk, talk, talk..................................Isn't anybody going to chime in on this^? :ph34r:

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‘After the wife done cleaning gun’

Just thought that was applicable to most other shooters. Been alone with my little dogs a long time. Dogs are more interesting and better company. If fact me and the mutts did a research study last evening.

Did you know that if you drop a grilled 7oz hamburger patty, a 24lb Carine Terrier can  pick it up and devour it while running down the hall in under 5 seconds.

CONCLUSION: Grilled mushrooms, swiss cheese and  bacon on a hamburger bun w/secret sauce not too bad for supper.

mister1.jpg

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PLUS ONE for Sedalia Dave you betcha.

 

I also do that method, with JB Weld.  Works a treat.  Gluing to the end of the Arbor also makes it easy(er) to swap barrels on an Open Top.

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In 26 years of shooting C&B revolvers in SASS I've never concerned myself about the barrel to arbor fit.   It's never been a problem in my revolvers, caps back in the hammer channel, yes... broken springs, yes... cylinder gap, no.  I must be doing something wrong.  

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16 hours ago, Griff said:

In 26 years of shooting C&B revolvers in SASS I've never concerned myself about the barrel to arbor fit.   It's never been a problem in my revolvers, caps back in the hammer channel, yes... broken springs, yes... cylinder gap, no.  I must be doing something wrong.  

I also never had any problems with my Navy conversions, but after 20 years the wedges were getting loose in a couple of them, so I dropped the washer down the hole and it tightened the wedge fit a bit.  It is not as "mandatory" as some folks say.

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