Bladesmith, SASS 113085 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I’m reloading Winchester AA shells with CB 0178-12 wads on Mec 600 Jr press. I’m getting this slight cut line (see photo) on the hull, I believe at the final crimp station. I’m not entirely sure why. The crimp itself looks good. Tried it with red and gray AA hulls with the same result Any ideas/solutions are appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Scalped Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I basically load the same as you and have never seen that. Is it possible the cut happened before you reloaded? Sorry I’m no help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Timber SASS #19724Life Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I’ve seen some of those marks and I don’t load with a Mec . Some guys used to use sandpaper to rough up the shells for a better grip . I’ve wondered it that’s how the marks get there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladesmith, SASS 113085 Posted October 13, 2023 Author Share Posted October 13, 2023 21 minutes ago, Ben Scalped said: I basically load the same as you and have never seen that. Is it possible the cut happened before you reloaded? Sorry I’m no help. I wondered that too so I checked the shells pre-loading and they weren’t there to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Load a shell and inspect it closely between each stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Get some different hulls. To many issues with the red Winny's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladesmith, SASS 113085 Posted October 13, 2023 Author Share Posted October 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: Load a shell and inspect it closely between each stage. I did do that; that’s what led me to believe it was happening at the final stage, but I haven’t figured out the why part yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, Bladesmith, SASS 113085 said: I did do that; that’s what led me to believe it was happening at the final stage, but I haven’t figured out the why part yet. 2 piece hulls, that mark is where the 2 parts meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 15 minutes ago, Bladesmith, SASS 113085 said: I did do that; that’s what led me to believe it was happening at the final stage, but I haven’t figured out the why part yet. Pull the hull at every stage of the process and inspect it. You should be able to see where it occurs and what's causing it, especially with a Mec jr. Are you sure the hulls aren't damaged before loading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 1 minute ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: 2 piece hulls, that mark is where the 2 parts meet. I've been loading the 2-piece AA hulls for eons and have never seen that. Doubt it's the hulls. I'm also seeing score marks above the cut, which suggests a problem with the press and/or its adjustments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladesmith, SASS 113085 Posted October 13, 2023 Author Share Posted October 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said: Pull the hull at every stage of the process and inspect it. You should be able to see where it occurs and what's causing it, especially with a Mec jr. I know that prior to the last stage, it’s not there, and after the last stage it is, but that part of the hull disappears inside the final crimp tube and then presto, it appears. I can’t feel anything particularly sharp inside, but I can’t see exactly what’s coming in contact with it in the moment and wasn’t sure if there was an adjustment I could make to correct it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, Bladesmith, SASS 113085 said: I know that prior to the last stage, it’s not there, and after the last stage it is, but that part of the hull disappears inside the final crimp tube and then presto, it appears. I can’t feel anything particularly sharp inside, but I can’t see exactly what’s coming in contact with it in the moment and wasn’t sure if there was an adjustment I could make to correct it. You shouldn't be feeling anything inside as it's supposed to be totally smooth. Check the mouth of the die for roughness. Even so, I can't conceive of anything that would make a radial cut like that, especially with the final crimp die. That would require some sort of a clamp or twisting movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladesmith, SASS 113085 Posted October 13, 2023 Author Share Posted October 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said: You shouldn't be feeling anything inside as it's supposed to be totally smooth. Check the mouth of the die for roughness. Even so, I can't conceive of anything that would make a radial cut like that, especially with the final crimp die. That would require some sort of a clamp or twisting movement. Me neither! I was just hoping someone would say they had the same problem and that it was an was an easy thing to tweak. I shall investigate further tomorrow and report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Eagle Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I have gotten this a few times, it happened intermittently, maybe from using older hulls that had been loaded several times. I backed off on the final crimp about 1/4 to 1/2 turn and the problem went away. You may want to try that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 May want to try adjusting the crimp die. Found this on another forum. https://www.ballisticproducts.com/bpi/articleindex/articles/mecadjust/mecadj.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Monger Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 That split looks to be just about where the tapered base wad ends inside the hull. I have seen a light crease in the same spot when my crimp die was out of adjustment. I think you are over crimping the shell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jack Black Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I have the same press Make sure the rim is in the holder all the way and check to make sure no dirt or lead snuck into the the shell holders on the press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Big Tree Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 It looks like a similar mark right at your thumb only not as long or deep. I don't know what could be causing it other than maybe to much pressure at the final crimp. I could bring you some Remington STS hulls at the next shoot to see it they do the same thing. I'll be at Hidden Valley (Sturgis Michigan) this Sunday (10-15-2023) or Paradise Pass next month let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladesmith, SASS 113085 Posted October 13, 2023 Author Share Posted October 13, 2023 14 minutes ago, Ya Big Tree said: It looks like a similar mark right at your thumb only not as long or deep. I don't know what could be causing it other than maybe to much pressure at the final crimp. I could bring you some Remington STS hulls at the next shoot to see it they do the same thing. I'll be at Hidden Valley (Sturgis Michigan) this Sunday (10-15-2023) or Paradise Pass next month let me know. Thank you kindly! I’m planning to be at Hidden Valley Sunday. I’m going to play with it some more today. If I don’t get it sorted I’ll let you know and try a few of the Remingtons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Big Tree Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 34 minutes ago, Bladesmith, SASS 113085 said: Thank you kindly! I’m planning to be at Hidden Valley Sunday. I’m going to play with it some more today. If I don’t get it sorted I’ll let you know and try a few of the Remingtons. I'll throw 25 in the truck incase you need them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 How much wad seating pressure do you use? Show us a picture looking sideways across the crimp to see how much tapering (if any) you are getting in the crimp die. How old and what type of AA hulls are these? The old compression formed (CF) or the new two-piece hull with an inserted base wad, called High Strength {HS) Measured before applying any crimp starting (AKA pre-crimp forming) - How far below the mouth (tip of petals) is the level of shot? Got a picture looking down into the hull mouth at an angle? If the hulls are old, this could be a batch of tube plastic that is not aging well. Does this cut go through the hull wall? Stick a razor blade knife, box cutter blade, etc into the cut and just barely press in and see how much the tip will slide into the hull wall) On first glance, I'd say the main crimp station die is biting or tearing the hull wall. That die body support arm can get bent. Has that die been removed and reinstalled recently (since you started seeing this problem)? Tried looking for the cut spot on the hull after placing crimp? Is the cut in the same "O'clock" position as the hull releases from the die? Where is that cut on the clock face (straight back, away from you being 12 o'clock)? good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I've loaded thousands of SG shells on my MEC Jr with that wad/hull combination and never had that problem. Have you contacted the MEC Help Line? E-mail your photos to MEC and ask for an evaluation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Big Tree Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I have found this website helpful from time to time. https://mendonconservation.org/adjusting-the-mec-reloading-machine.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladesmith, SASS 113085 Posted October 13, 2023 Author Share Posted October 13, 2023 3 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: How much wad seating pressure do you use? Show us a picture looking sideways across the crimp to see how much tapering (if any) you are getting in the crimp die. How old and what type of AA hulls are these? The old compression formed (CF) or the new two-piece hull with an inserted base wad, called High Strength {HS) Measured before applying any crimp starting (AKA pre-crimp forming) - How far below the mouth (tip of petals) is the level of shot? Got a picture looking down into the hull mouth at an angle? If the hulls are old, this could be a batch of tube plastic that is not aging well. Does this cut go through the hull wall? Stick a razor blade knife, box cutter blade, etc into the cut and just barely press in and see how much the tip will slide into the hull wall) On first glance, I'd say the main crimp station die is biting or tearing the hull wall. That die body support arm can get bent. Has that die been removed and reinstalled recently (since you started seeing this problem)? Tried looking for the cut spot on the hull after placing crimp? Is the cut in the same "O'clock" position as the hull releases from the die? Where is that cut on the clock face (straight back, away from you being 12 o'clock)? good luck, GJ Thanks for all the suggestions! Wad pressure was at 50, backed it down to 30 with no change. Photos are attached. I don’t know the age, they are supposed to be once fired and that looks to be true. They don’t look too “vintage”. I’ve mostly been using grey, but tried the red one pictured initially to see if I got a different result (I didn’t). Shot is pretty much level with the top of the petals. The cuts don’t penetrate the shells and some are deeper than others. It doesn’t appear to be happening in just one section of the shell. What’s more, occasionally I have shell that doesn’t do it at all. Attached is a photo of what I think you mean by the die body support. If so, it looks straight and I haven’t removed it. I did back off on the crimp pressure until was no longer adequate and snugged it up from there without a change. I appreciate the time you put into your suggestions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Is there a CRACKED WELD on the support arm at the bottom, both on the arm side and on the die side? Just above the yellow handle section of the highest screwdriver shown in the pic just above? Or is this just lighting that highlights weld undercutting with a black shadow from a not-real-fully-filled weld from MEC? The hull base you show definitely says it is the newer AA HS hull, so the hulls can't be ancient. Anymore, ESPECIALLY when loading cowboy type loads that use smaller amounts of powder, there is NO need for more wad seating pressure than you need to get the bottom of the wad touching the powder. Certainly not 30 or 50 pounds. If you are having to put that much pressure on modern wads and powder just to get the wad low enough for the crimp to close, you have too "tall" a wad. I know years ago shotshell loading instructions USED to urge 30 to 50 pounds. NOW they recommend to use little to no pressure when seating modern wads. If you slide your finger and thumb up and down the hull around where the fissure occurs in the outside of the wall, do you feel a bump or ridge? Some small-volume (light charge) powder drops let the wad get down in the hull so far, that the skirt on the bottom of the wad jams into the top part of the base wad insert in the hull. That can bulge out the hull wall and that bulge might be causing the torn surface when the shell is being crimped. What powder, powder weight, wad and shot weight are you dropping? I've loaded a lot of Win AA HS hulls for cowboy and can USUALLY tell if you might be way off on the recipe. good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 A couple of things: Your final crimp is too shallow. It also appears your wad isn't seated deep enough into the hull. Either you've too much powder in the hull for the wad, making your stack height too tall, or you don't have enough wad pressure. (Caution: see GJs post above.) Win AA two-piece hulls have a bit of lip inside at the top of the base wad where a plastic shot cup/wad can hang up. I found I had to up the wad pressure a bit to push it past that lip. Otherwise my hulls crumpled at the final crimp. Again, I've never seen a cut like that, but your hull does show signs of crumpling which typically happens at the final crimp when the overall shell height is too tall. A finished hull should measure 2 1/4", and I'm betting yours exceeds that. I highly recommend downloading this manual and starting from scratch on setting up your press. There's an image of a properly formed crimp (page 9 Fig. 21) and four more images in the troubleshooting section (page 11). Also double check your recipe to be sure you have the correct component combo. https://www.mecoutdoors.com/images/uploaded/Operating Manuals/1008455 600 JR Mark V manual.pdf Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 As GJ pointed out this area sure looks like it is cracked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 Cracks on the support arm weld will let the die body move around, perhaps binding on the hull wall and tearing it. There's a fair amount of force applied when crimping is being done. I'd take off the die with it's support arm, center plunger and any other parts that may be damaged and replace with new parts from MEC. Added: A close look at the side views of your loads shows a ton of rub marks toward the mouth of the hull and some very small surface marks that look like the die is chattering and vibrating as it travels either down (more likely) or up the hull. They appear as very faint partial "tear rings," lined up exactly with the main tear you are concerned with, but higher up towards the mouth of the hull. Having the same circumferential placement, just not deep like your main tear. Is that press kind of "grabbing" as you stroke the arm down to put the crimp into the round? That could be more indication that the crimp die is loose enough to move around laterally. good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladesmith, SASS 113085 Posted October 14, 2023 Author Share Posted October 14, 2023 Hi Gang, @Garrison Joe, SASS #60708, @Sedalia Dave Sharp eyes! Best I can determine, the highlighted areas represent areas of finish loss without a discernible gap. The loss does make one wonder if it is flexing at the joint, however. I loaded one, watching that area and couldn’t see that happening, but I wouldn’t rule it out. I would say crimping doesn’t feel as smooth as I might imagine it should when I dream of loading shells at night, but this is my first shot shell press so I don’t have much of a baseline. @Abilene Slim SASS 81783Regarding seating the wad, the press shows 30lbs, but that’s also where the grid stops. I have it set as low as it will go now. I’m not sure how one checks if it’s fully seated, but I seated the wad and gave it the ol’ shake-a-roo and couldn’t hear any powder moving if that counts. I’m only the loading about 12.6 grn of Extra-Lite, which is below the published minimum, so I can’t imagine that’s taking up too much space in the hull. I was crimping a bit deeper initially than the latest photos show, but I tried backing off as much as I could to see if that helped. Prior shell OAL was coming out to about 2.26-2.27”, the latest are about 2.3”. I did also take @Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971’s advice and contacted Mec. They got back with me super fast. Have to appreciate that these days. The fellow I talked to said: “Many of the old metal dies fit to tight on these shells. I then recommend obtaining a current crimp die #721CA as these dies are smoother and make a better crimp.” For the $20 the new part cost, I thought it was worth not finding out if I could smooth or tighten every square millimeter of this one. I’ll update once the new part is installed, but feel free to share any additional thoughts. I’ve learned a lot from the conversation even if I haven’t fixed it yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 I've loaded Winchester AA hulls on a MEC 600Jr since 1986 and haven't seen that horizontal split in the case. I've had a few bulge slightly and backing off the seating tension on the wad has always eliminated this. Generally, I've load BP with a CB-1138-R wad. Most of my cases are range pickups from guys that don't reload or my new LNLR I use in SB. After loading w/BP I don't reload them, and just toss 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 Quote I’m not sure how one checks if it’s fully seated, Here's a foolproof way to check wad seating depth and that it is down on the powder (and you don't really need it to be much lower than this - powder no longer needs compression in the hull). Prime a hull and add powder. Just barely start a wad into the hull and pull hull off of machine. Take a wooden rod or carpenter's pencil with a flat end on it, and press by hand with about 5 pounds of pressure. When wad stops, it is touching the powder. Now, compare this wad position (you can measure down from the petal tips to the bottom of the shot cup of the wad and be pretty precise) with the wad position you get with your press seating the wad. Then you can adjust the press's wad inserting rammer/drop tube to match that hand seated wad position. You loosen the clamp screw that runs horizontally at the top of the rammer tube and slide that tube up and down to get the correct seating depth. That "30 pound" bottom of the scale on old Mec loaders dates way back to when folks loaded with Black Powder and with fiber wads. Seating to where the scale shows 30 pounds anymore is clearly too much pressure - especially with the very dense ball powders that are on the market, and small charge weights used in cowboy loads. About the only way that the nickel plating flakes off in big chunks from loading press parts is that there is a crack in the part (or the weld) allowing the metal to flex. Solid metal allows nickel plate stay put for a long time. good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladesmith, SASS 113085 Posted October 14, 2023 Author Share Posted October 14, 2023 Thanks @Garrison Joe, SASS #60708, that’s helpful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Crimp looks good, just right for an STS. Have you tried any STS hulls to see if does the same thing. I got rid of all my Win hulls, only got about 3000 STS left. Very little gets past GJ's eagle eyes. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watab kid Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 wow - learned a lot about reloaders and things that go wrong here in this thread , so far ive not suffered any of this but i see why it might be an issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Presidio Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 8 hours ago, watab kid said: wow - learned a lot about reloaders and things that go wrong here in this thread , so far ive not suffered any of this but i see why it might be an issue You and me both, Kid ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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