I have a serious EV question

[Alpo]

How much does running stuff on the car lower the mileage?

 

There's a video in another thread of a Ford pickup. And the guy says at the beginning of the video that he's got 90 something percent charge which gives him 270 miles range. Okay.

 

But it's raining. That means he's got to run the windshield wipers. And he's got to have the headlights on. Both of those use electricity. How much does that shorten that 270 mile range?

 

And I'm going to assume since it's summer time that he's running the air conditioner. Maybe even playing the radio. Those two also use electricity.

 

Now with my gas powered truck, my radio and wipers and horn and headlights and all that other stuff also use electricity. But my gasoline engine's alternator produces way more electricity than I use. And it produces that electricity whether I'm using it or not, so having the headlights on or the wipers working or the radio playing is not going to change my mileage.

 

It would be a terrible thing to know that I can go 270 miles, and the next charging station is 190 miles away, but it's night and it's raining and I got the AC on, and my truck only goes 180 miles on that charge.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

As to your original question > I have no clue.  However, if you are aware enough to have a Tesla adaptor handy, it won't matter as a charging station is no more than 100 or so miles apart when considering all the choices.

[Yul Lose]

Running the AC, lights and wipers does lower the range but most of the e vehicles now show where the charging stations are up ahead and there are more and more charging stations being built every day. That being said a few years ago some friends of mine that bought one of the Tesla early models and decided to take a road trip back east in June. They got to about a mile out of Quartzsite, Az. and the car ran out of juice. They could see the Carls Junior sign where the charging stations were but had to wait a couple of hours for the tow truck to get them there. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if there weren’t charging stations at most fast food restaurants and grocery stores and other businesses in the not to distant future. In Escondido they’re cropping up everywhere, even out in the small town where I live they are in a number of locations.

 

Personally if I were going to buy an e vehicle, I’d buy a plug in hybrid. The gasoline engine would still get you there if the batteries wouldn’t.

[Subdeacon Joe]

The answer is "not very much."  I would sit in my Leaf (which doesn't have the greatest of batteries available) on lunch and breaks at work, car powered up (basically idling), A/C going and radio on.  2 15 minute breaks and about a 50 minute lunch break.  In a week that would cost me maybe two miles of range.  That's sitting in 90 degrees, partial shade, and having the AC set to 70.

Remember a year or two ago, that huge storm that stranded thousands of drivers on the freeway outside of DC?  The one that made every "EVs are Satan Incarnate" type making claims that in an EV you would freeze to death in just minutes?  And that every EV would instantly be drained of all power and so clog the roads and prevent them from being cleared?  Even though no EV driver or passenger died, no EVs were without power and all made it to charging stations with power to spare? 

 

One guy did his own, admittedly unscientific, test with his EV.  Temperatures were in the single digits to I think about -20.  Started with I think an 80% charge.  Set the temperature controls to 75F front and back.  72 hours later he still had about a 40% charge.

Norway, which has a very high percentage of EVs doesn't seem to have a problem.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Also bear in mind that the EV (most anyways) uses regenerative systems to augment their charge - so while using the wipers, AC, etc. the charge being depleted is being somewhat offset by the electrical regen of using the brakes.

 

Additionally, AC and electrical use does affect your range in a gasoline vehicle as well - drag on the engine from an AC compressor or alternator lowers your gas mileage.

 

AAA says about 17% decrease in range running heat or AC.

But they also claim ICE vehicles lose 25% running AC (no real losses for heat as heat is a free byproduct of internal combustion) - so take their numbers with a grain of salt.

Tesla claims AC is around 2-3% (Anything Musk claims needs a deer lick sized BLOCK of salt) (couldnt find anything from them on heating).

Car & Driver says about 17% decrease for heating (they also claim a 50% decrease if you use every electrical heating aid at full blast {heater, defrosters, seat heaters}).  I couldn't find a C&D test for AC decreases.

[Gungadin]

We have a 2 year old base Nissan Leaf.  I have not geeked out on how the software 'adjusts'  but it starts with 160 miles full.  then I think it adjusts the prediction based on current/recent behaviors.  a few things are powered of the small 12v battery.  When that battery dies you are DITW (dead in the water).  It is to dumb to get power from the high voltage system.  The 12v battery must run a lot of low power stuff like the radio, computer etc.  Yes, the heat and AC come from the Li battery and reduce mileage.  I can tell mine to charge overnight and to be 70F at 7AM when I leave so the car is preheated/cooled and does use battery to get room temperature.

 

The other negative about them people don't mention is that they are heavy.  Consequently they are hard on tires.  My first set of tires were probably junk but surely the weight also contributed to the 20,000 mile life.

 

The Tesla semi truck is a bit of a joke.  A truck and its load can only weigh so much and the truck itself weighs a lot due to the batteries.  So it has limited applications like hauling light stuff locally.

 

I kind of like the Leaf and if you are a multi car family it isn't bad.  Especially when the government gives you $7000 to take it.  My son has a high end Tesla an dit can go good distances but you still have to plan your recharges around lunch and where there is a charger

[Subdeacon Joe]

3 hours ago, Gungadin said:

The Tesla semi truck is a bit of a joke.  A truck and its load can only weigh so much and the truck itself weighs a lot due to the batteries.  So it has limited applications like hauling light stuff locally.

 

A lot of freight is local.   Railhead or port to final customer, round trip of under 250 miles.  Distribution from a district hub to a local terminals and from the terminals to the destination.  

Test runs here in California between somewhere in the Los Angeles air basin and Sacramento make the round trip - over the Grapevine both ways - on a single charge and, I think, carrying 65,000 pounds.  Likewise tests from near Reno to Sacramento.

https://jalopnik.com/pepsi-tesla-semi-electric-big-rig-state-federal-grant-1850327480

 

https://www.electrive.com/2023/08/15/pepsico-cites-consumption-of-1-1-kwh-km-for-tesla-semi/

 

https://insideevs.com/news/681061/here-how-pepsi-runs-its-21-tesla-semi-trucks-at-sacramento-depot/

 

 

All that said, they are still in the development and testing stage.  Are there, or will there be, issues?  Yes.  Expecting perfection right out of the blocks is unrealistic.  Even though that is exactly what the nay-sayers expect.  Sort of like expecting the automobiles of 1900 to be at the same level as whatever the top of the line production car is today.  
 

 

 

[Gungadin]

Agree Subdeacon, like my car it has limits.  Distance and materials that are not dense.  And yes we are at the front end of the learning curve.  

 

Milk runs with food distribution would be a good application.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

One thing on the EV pickup trucks, just like gas or diesel engine trucks I haven't heard about is what are the true ranges when there are more then one passenger and loads in the beds of pickups? I know even the fossil fuels get less mileage or distance with loads.

So in EV cars, what will the range be if your taking a family of 4 on a trip?

What will be the range of EV trucks be with the bed loaded with their capacity or pulling trailers?

[Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme]

Ever see a EV with a roof rack and kayaks, or snow boards or luggage carrier? Yeah, me neither.........

[Dirty Dog Doug]

just like gas cars speed cuts the range 

At 70-80  my tesla can make 300 miles but running alot faster range is about cut in half  

It does 0-60 in 3 second  no power lose at 5000 ft 

the tax credits where great and  I get to cheat Gavin out $1000s in road taxes and Ca very high cales tax on gas of 10%

PGE gives very cheap power with no income limits , with solar panels the scam pays even more 

from what I have heard ford and Gm battery cars pieces of junk 

Yes I do have gas power truck for boat towing and trips to the range with gun carts 

[Cypress Sun]

1 hour ago, Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme said:

Ever see a EV with a roof rack and kayaks, or snow boards or luggage carrier? Yeah, me neither.........

 

Most EV's are designed to be as aerodynamically efficient as possible. Roof racks, luggage carriers, exposed antennas, raised door openers and the like are parasitic drag and decrease range. Same thing happens on ICE vehicles. I've heard that roof racks alone will reduce milage by 1 - 2 mpg at highway speeds.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

22 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

Running the AC, lights and wipers does lower the range but most of the e vehicles now show where the charging stations are up ahead and there are more and more charging stations being built every day. That being said a few years ago some friends of mine that bought one of the Tesla early models and decided to take a road trip back east in June. They got to about a mile out of Quartzsite, Az. and the car ran out of juice. They could see the Carls Junior sign where the charging stations were but had to wait a couple of hours for the tow truck to get them there. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if there weren’t charging stations at most fast food restaurants and grocery stores and other businesses in the not to distant future. In Escondido they’re cropping up everywhere, even out in the small town where I live they are in a number of locations.

 

Personally if I were going to buy an e vehicle, I’d buy a plug in hybrid. The gasoline engine would still get you there if the batteries wouldn’t.

IMO, the hybrid technology is much more versatile for people travelling more than a small mileage radius.  TESLA is getting a lot of criticism over their EVs not achieving the advertised mileage.  I suspect the things Alpo mentioned are the reason.   I would love to be able to fuel up my cars right in my own garage, but only if my lifestyle only included short trips.  Unfortunately, the short trip lifestyle doesn't match with my needs.

 

Off Topic but related --electric tooling:

 

  Next year, it will be illegal to sell or buy a new gasoline powered lawn mower, leaf blower, chainsaw, etc.,  in CA.   I need to do heavy logging, so I gave in and bought a battery powered saw to give them a try. (It is my 13th chainsaw -- I do a lot of logging and fire fuel clearing work) 

 

I normally use gas-powered saws: Stihl 390 with a 28" bar, 490 with 36" bar, 660 with a 46" bar or 860 with a 56" bar, all using chisel tooth chains.   The largest battery model currently available has a 26" bar, so I was limited right off the starting block. 

 

I tested the saw yesterday, limbing and bucking a +- 33" dbh previously felled Jeffrey Pine about 140' in length.   Limbing went ok, but much slower than with a bigger, heavier, higher RPM gas saw.  It took three batteries to limb the fallen tree (about 30 large 12-16" limbs and many more small branches).  Normally, I walk the top of the log, reaching down and cutting limbs with longer saw bars -- i.e., not having to bend over.  The shorter bar necessitated bending over and finally dismounting the log and having to climb through branches and snakes on the ground to do the remaining limbing work.  

 

Log bucking to length was a different story.  2/3 of the way through the first bucking cut, using a fresh (4th) battery, the battery became exhausted.  While I paused to change batteries,  the log predictably settled and impinged the saw.   The fresh (5th) battery did not supply sufficient energy/torque to restart the impinged chain, and the high torquing effort exhausted the battery after a few minutes of  trying.  I hiked out to get a gas-powered saw to free the saw and finish the work.  

 

Net conclusion:  The $550 electric saw and FIVE batteries ($140 apiece) could not do the work that a gas-powered saw can do on a pint of fossil fuel.  Electric saws definitely have a place and are even impressive in lighter home maintenance and some commercial tree work.  They're lighter and less maintenance intensive and they can get a lot of light work accomplished with less effort.  But , their current development is insufficient for constant heavier work.  The electric tooling is not yet up to the work requirements of commercial or heavy logging.  I can't carry enough batteries and wedges in the field to keep them operating for a day.  And their lower RPM and slower cutting rate is a major production handicap. 

 

I guess I'll be driving my gas-powered pickups to Reno or Kingman for future gas-powered saw purchases.   

 

[Cypress Sun]

39 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

IMO, the hybrid technology is much more versatile for people travelling more than a small mileage radius.  TESLA is getting a lot of criticism over their EVs not achieving the advertised mileage.  I suspect the things Alpo mentioned are the reason.   I would love to be able to fuel up my cars right in my own garage, but only if my lifestyle only included short trips.  Unfortunately, the short trip lifestyle doesn't match with my needs.

 

Off Topic but related --electric tooling:

 

  Next year, it will be illegal to sell or buy a new gasoline powered lawn mower, leaf blower, chainsaw, etc.,  in CA.   I need to do heavy logging, so I gave in and bought a battery powered saw to give them a try. (It is my 13th chainsaw -- I do a lot of logging and fire fuel clearing work) 

 

I normally use gas-powered saws: Stihl 390 with a 28" bar, 490 with 36" bar, 660 with a 46" bar or 860 with a 56" bar, all using chisel tooth chains.   The largest battery model currently available has a 26" bar, so I was limited right off the starting block. 

 

I tested the saw yesterday, limbing and bucking a +- 33" dbh previously felled Jeffrey Pine about 140' in length.   Limbing went ok, but much slower than with a bigger, heavier, higher RPM gas saw.  It took three batteries to limb the fallen tree (about 30 large 12-16" limbs and many more small branches).  Normally, I walk the top of the log, reaching down and cutting limbs with longer saw bars -- i.e., not having to bend over.  The shorter bar necessitated bending over and finally dismounting the log and having to climb through branches and snakes on the ground to do the remaining limbing work.  

 

Log bucking to length was a different story.  2/3 of the way through the first bucking cut, using a fresh (4th) battery, the battery became exhausted.  While I paused to change batteries,  the log predictably settled and impinged the saw.   The fresh (5th) battery did not supply sufficient energy/torque to restart the impinged chain, and the high torquing effort exhausted the battery after a few minutes of  trying.  I hiked out to get a gas-powered saw to free the saw and finish the work.  

 

Net conclusion:  The $550 electric saw and FIVE batteries ($140 apiece) could not do the work that a gas-powered saw can do on a pint of fossil fuel.  Electric saws definitely have a place and are even impressive in lighter home maintenance and some commercial tree work.  They're lighter and less maintenance intensive and they can get a lot of light work accomplished with less effort.  But , their current development is insufficient for constant heavier work.  The electric tooling is not yet up to the work requirements of commercial or heavy logging.  I can't carry enough batteries and wedges in the field to keep them operating for a day.  And their lower RPM and slower cutting rate is a major production handicap. 

 

I guess I'll be driving my gas-powered pickups to Reno or Kingman for future gas-powered saw purchases.   

 

 

A very thoughtful and detailed assessment.

 

Thank You

 

 

[Texas Lizard]

Are there any EV 18 wheelers out there???? And are they doing any good???? Or are they a pipe dream of the Big Guy????

 

Texas Lizard

[Subdeacon Joe]

25 minutes ago, Texas Lizard said:

Are there any EV 18 wheelers out there???? And are they doing any good???? Or are they a pipe dream of the Big Guy????

 

Texas Lizard

 

Scroll up to about 18 hours ago.

[Still hand Bill]

7 hours ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

One thing on the EV pickup trucks, just like gas or diesel engine trucks I haven't heard about is what are the true ranges when there are more then one passenger and loads in the beds of pickups? I know even the fossil fuels get less mileage or distance with loads.

So in EV cars, what will the range be if your taking a family of 4 on a trip?

What will be the range of EV trucks be with the bed loaded with their capacity or pulling trailers?

The load has little effect unless going only up hill.  Fwiw my bolt got .5m/kwh when going up pikes peak with 4 passengers.   Normal warm weather, flat driving is 4-5 m/kwh.  
 

The lighting get 2-2.5m/kwh with one person, normal driving.  Pulling will drop rage a lot, so will driving fast or headwind or cold.   Most ev’s rely on improved aerodynamics to help with range so they suffer more when they have extra drag, ie trailer, roof racks, soft/wide tires.  
 

an easy back of the envelope way to calculate ev power usage, take a similar shaped/sized vehicle and just move the mpg decimal point one spot to the left.  Ie for a F150, they get 20 ish mpg.  So about 2.0 m/kwh.  A small compact car can get 40 mpg or about 4 m/kwh.  Then to get a usable range, take rated pattern capacity X .75, then multiply that by the m/kwh.  So for my Bolt, it had a 60 kwh battery, or 45 usable X 4 means in good conditions, it had a range of about 180 miles usable.  A lightning, it’s a 90 kwh (I think), so about 135 miles usable.  Start towing and it could drop to less than 50 miles for a big trailer.  

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

5 hours ago, Dirty Dog Doug said:

just like gas cars speed cuts the range 

At 70-80  my tesla can make 300 miles but running alot faster range is about cut in half  

It does 0-60 in 3 second  no power lose at 5000 ft 

the tax credits where great and  I get to cheat Gavin out $1000s in road taxes and Ca very high cales tax on gas of 10%

PGE gives very cheap power with no income limits , with solar panels the scam pays even more 

from what I have heard ford and Gm battery cars pieces of junk 

Yes I do have gas power truck for boat towing and trips to the range with gun carts 

Wait till the mileage tax comes out.