Ford lightning holding me up from getting my car

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

2 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

People whine about the limits of EVs and then ridicule solutions.

I'm certainly not whining. The limitations are what they are. When the tech catches up with the need, there won't be anything to say about it. 

A big part of the solution is more infrastructure, to consist of more and better charging stations, better batteries, and more power generating facilities. Another poster mentioned a better battery is being developed. I'm sure that the people who make charging stations are working to improve them, which leaves power generation.

The big problem there is that the same people that taut the EV as the solution to "global warming", "climate change", or whatever they call it next, are the same people preventing the building of new power plants. You can't replace ICE vehicles with EVs and NOT have the infrastructure to power them. Which may be an integral part of their plan.

Another problem is the disposal of expended batteries and the replacement of them in the vehicle. I've heard that it can cost $10,000 or more just to replace the battery, a cost so high that most older EVs just get junked, and then have to be stored in their own spaces just in case they catch fire. NOT my opinion, just what junkyards are doing. My Jeep is 21 years old, and barring an accident that leaves it a pile of scrap metal, I'll probably have it until I die, or my wife and daughter have to have me carried out of the house, either because my mind is too far gone to fight it anymore, or because I've reached room temperature.

Again, if someone wants an EV they can get one. You have one that works for you and that's fine. Others here have said that there might be one in their future, and THAT'S fine. Some have said that they're the future of transportation. Maybe they are. But not for me. As long as I have a choice, I'll happily drive my Jeep. 

   

The "solution" I presented amused me is all. It would kind of defeat the purpose of HAVING an EV.  If I'm not mistaken, some Hybrid vehicles have an ICE under the hood to keep their batteries charged, or to power the vehicle when the battery goes dead.

[Texas Joker]

I don't understand why pure battery powered electric is THE answer. Trains use diesel electric to move freight at great efficiencies. Why not use a small diesel gennie hybrids to power a car? 150 mpg no real changes to infrastructure needed and no depleted batteries

[Still hand Bill]

Couple of things, first, I would expect ice vehicles as a fleet to have more fires even when normalized than EV’s.  Simply due to the fact that gasoline fires in cars tend to happen on older cars and the ice vehicles are far older on average than the ev’s.   What would be a more valid comparison is only look at vehicles less than 5 years old.  Fwiw my Bolt is the only car where the mfg (gm) told me not to park it in my garage as it may burn down the house.  They had bad batteries.  
 

EV’s offer a great driving experience and anyone who has driven them knows this.  The problem is batteries have a very poor energy density compared to liquid fuels.  Even the 3-4x efficiency of electric power over gas/diesel is not enough to overcome the poor energy storage of batteries.  Until this issue is solved they are not a viable replacement for many use cases.  It’s always about the range.  
 

published ranges are complete BS for portions of the country.  To get those you need to drive at slower speeds, preferably stop and go traffic in moderate temperatures.  Also they publish range for 100% battery usage which is not feasible and very bad for battery life.  Best battery life is achieved when batteries are kept between 15% and 85% soc.  Which means you really only have 75% of the published range available.  Then derate that 30-50% depending on speed, wind, and temperature.   The problem is you never know what temperature and how windy it will be on a trip.  You might make a drive one day and then next time you won’t.  I would be driving an ev still if they offered a 400 mile epa range, 4wd, and a suv or truck body style for less than $50k.  That vehicle doesn’t exist and probably never will unless we have another battery breakthrough similar to going from nimh to lithium. 

[Warden Callaway]

Son has a Toyota hybrid. Uses it to drive to/from work that's some miles away.  Says he gets over 50 mpg. No charging because charges as it goes.

[Still hand Bill]

6 minutes ago, Texas Joker said:

I don't understand why pure battery powered electric is THE answer. Trains use diesel electric to move freight at great efficiencies. Why not use a small diesel gennie hybrids to power a car? 150 mpg no real changes to infrastructure needed and no depleted batteries

Not possible even with diesel over electric.  It simply takes too much energy to move a reasonable sized vehicle down the highway at speed.  It takes about 35kw to run 80 mph in a Bolt sized car, ie small.  A pickup might take closer to 70.  

[Buckshot Bob]

1 minute ago, Texas Joker said:

I don't understand why pure battery powered electric is THE answer. Trains use diesel electric to move freight at great efficiencies. Why not use a small diesel gennie hybrids to power a car? 150 mpg no real changes to infrastructure needed and no depleted batteries

Because that’s not what the people in power want. They have an agenda and they are going to force you to comply. They are interested is doing what’s good for them, not the American people. If they were we would be utilizing all forms of energy for what makes the most sense in the region you live in. They have regulated nuclear energy to death. If it can be done safely in a sub or ship it certainly can be done in a land based plant. 

 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

24 minutes ago, Still hand Bill said:

Not possible even with diesel over electric.  It simply takes too much energy to move a reasonable sized vehicle down the highway at speed.  It takes about 35kw to run 80 mph in a Bolt sized car, ie small.  A pickup might take closer to 70.  

So you’re saying a generator/electric setup like locomotives is too unwieldy to move a passenger car/pickup at 80 mph? I find it hard to believe that a 90-year-old technology can’t be adapted. 
 

That’s a straight-up question, not a snarky response to your post. 

[Texas Joker]

31 minutes ago, Still hand Bill said:

Not possible even with diesel over electric.  It simply takes too much energy to move a reasonable sized vehicle down the highway at speed.  It takes about 35kw to run 80 mph in a Bolt sized car, ie small.  A pickup might take closer to 70.  

F150 lightning has a 100 kwh battery and goes approx 250-300 miles. 1800 pound battery. To go 300 miles would take about 4 hours  at highway speeds. Using 25 kw an hour rough math. A 20 kw genie weighs 1138 pounds with the diesel motor. Off the shelf. 100% load gets 1.5 gallons an hour. 4 hours 6 gallons 300 miles. Only 75 mpg 

 

Tell me again why it's impossible please. You have to charge that battery somehow. Energy in energy out.

[Still hand Bill]

3 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

So you’re saying a generator/electric setup like locomotives is too unwieldy to move a passenger car/pickup at 80 mph? I find it hard to believe that a 90-year-old technology can’t be adapted. 
 

That’s a straight-up question, not a snarky response to your post. 

It can be done physically, look at the Chevy Volt. It has a system like that.  The problem is it takes so much energy to go down the highway at 80 mph, that 150 mpg is not physically possible.  Gasoline only has about 33kwh of energy per gallon.   Diesel maybe 10% more, so let’s call is 37kwh.   Which means to get to 150 mpg, you can’t use more than 15kw or so to go 80 mph or about 20 hp.  Btw quick google search says a lightning is getting 1.6m/kwh at 80.   Which means it takes about 50kw or 66hp.  
 

 People are saying they get 1.6m/kw at80 mph with a Lightning, so that’s 50kw consumed to go that fast.   Based on the other user that 20kw gen set uses 1.5g/hr,  which seems a bit low.  But might be about right when you figure 20kw is really only 16 kw usable.  Most electrical circuits are derated to 80% of rated for continuous use.  So to do 50 kw you would be burning roughly 4.5 gal per hour or 18mpg.   Perfectly reasonable number for a 1/2 ton pickup.  
 

 

[Ozark Huckleberry]

On 9/11/2023 at 3:33 PM, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

The average cost of an EV is $60,000 and up. If one can afford that, why do they need a subsidy? Isn't that the same as welfare for the buyer and the automakers?

The difference between EV subsidies and SNAP is that with SNAP, the government gives a handout to people who DON'T have enough money to buy something.

[Subdeacon Joe]

12 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

A big part of the solution is more infrastructure, to consist of more and better charging stations, better batteries, and more power generating facilities. Another poster mentioned a better battery is being developed.

12 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

When the tech catches up with the need, there won't be anything to say about it. 

 

 

In China one, or maybe more than one, company changes the battery.  Yeah, battery swap stations.  Takes something like 15 minutes.  Look it up.   
Disposal of batteries: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a44022888/electric-car-battery-recycling/

 

https://www.investcanada.ca/industries/ev-supply-chain?creative=656727718264&keyword=electric car battery recycling&matchtype=e&network=g&device=c&gad=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwu4WoBhBkEiwAojNdXuFxDMmFdbBCC9xkMcSwJdE6EYNxsNturOOWd5v-SLyX8rEQD8Xy9RoCT2IQAvD_BwE

 

Another NEW technology that the nay-sayers expect to be 100% developed instantly.  

Yes, "when tech catches up" but too many people demand that everything be perfect before anything hits the market.  If that attitude had prevailed in, let's say 1900, there would be no ICE vehicles today.  

Sounds REAL familiar, doesn't it?

What, I think, has most of the people who pick apart every little thing about EVs and denounce them as spawn of Satan it the politics of forcing an all electric world on us.  I agree that it is pie-in-the-sky idiocy driven by power hungry morons.  Especially stupid because the reject nuclear power out of hand.

But that doesn't blind me to the fact that EVs can fill a significant niche in our transportation needs, or that I acknowledge that it's a developing technology, much like ICE vehicles once were. 

 

Interesting how me calling BS on the  "meanwhile his driver is tied up driving to Alabama to pick up a f150 lightning for another customer.  That dealer didn’t charge it so their driver had to rent a motel room so it can charge overnight, THEN drive four hours and charge it for four hours and drive the other four. "  line TM was fed by pointing out that it doesn't take 4 hours to recharge an EV has led to so much discussion.
 

 

[Texas Joker]

When that ad was posted there were electric cars and drayage trucks. Stanley steamers, gas and diesel combustion, central rail street cars and trains as well as animal draft, canals and dirigibles moving people and freight.  

 

I don't care what people buy and drive, if you want a thing do it. I always question the motive and money. In branson mo at the outlet mall there is a double bank of ev chargers right at the front near a group of stores that I assume attract people with disposable income. Big signs about not blocking the chargers but primo parking spots.

 

History showed at the time it was easier to fill a tank with fuel and IC engines won the travel awards for years. If tech changes maybe a new way to move about happens.

 

I see Tx power grid struggle in summer and Cali says be careful when you charge, power has to come from somewhere.  That 50kw mentioned above was stored power frome some form of generation. 

 

Folks seem to take both side very personal. I never see people argue so much over say chocolate or vanilla.

 

I'm still waiting for my flying car:

 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

2 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

In China one, or maybe more than one, company changes the battery.  Yeah, battery swap stations.  Takes something like 15 minutes.  Look it up.   

 

I saw something about this on The Discovery Channel probably 25 years ago. I thought then that that was how EVs were going to be "recharged" I don't know WHY they aren't. That's one of the smartest idesa for EVs I've seen yet.

 

Another NEW technology that the nay-sayers expect to be 100% developed instantly.  

Yes, "when tech catches up" but too many people demand that everything be perfect before anything hits the market.  If that attitude had prevailed in, let's say 1900, there would be no ICE vehicles today.  

 

The difference is that the EV doesn't do anything "better" than the ICE vehicles do. They just do it different. And EVs don't do road trips as well. Even if everything went perfect on a road trip, an EV can't do what a lot of people would want to do on a road trip. If the above system of switching out the battery were available, that would go a long way towards negating that . Other than that, it's a matter of personal choice. 

What, I think, has most of the people who pick apart every little thing about EVs and denounce them as spawn of Satan it the politics of forcing an all electric world on us.  I agree that it is pie-in-the-sky idiocy driven by power hungry morons.  Especially stupid because the reject nuclear power out of hand.

But that doesn't blind me to the fact that EVs can fill a significant niche in our transportation needs, or that I acknowledge that it's a developing technology, much like ICE vehicles once were. 

 

Completely agree. I'm NOT picking apart every little thing, I'm just saying that not everybody needs or wants one. 

 

Interesting how me calling BS on the  "meanwhile his driver is tied up driving to Alabama to pick up a f150 lightning for another customer.  That dealer didn’t charge it so their driver had to rent a motel room so it can charge overnight, THEN drive four hours and charge it for four hours and drive the other four. "  line TM was fed by pointing out that it doesn't take 4 hours to recharge an EV has led to so much discussion.

 

Your comment was the explosive, and my smart alec comment was the fuse. HOW FUN!!
 

 

 

[Cypress Sun]

 

So Mike...did you get the friggen Expedition or not?

 

Asking for a friend.

[Subdeacon Joe]

3 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

Your comment was the explosive, and my smart alec comment was the fuse. HOW FUN!!

 

That was you?  Truthfully, I respond to the words I see on the screen, not the person.  I usually only notice the name in passing, or if I have to go back and reread a full post rather than a quote from a post.

 

 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

1 hour ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

That was you?  Truthfully, I respond to the words I see on the screen, not the person.  I usually only notice the name in passing, or if I have to go back and reread a full post rather than a quote from a post.

 

 

Yeah, that was me. Sometimes I see or hear something and the comment is just RIGHT THERE. Often as not, the comment is out before I even have time to think about it. 

I do enjoy these discussions. I learn things, and hopefully other readers, (and you), do too.

As I mentioned in our last exchange, I had seen a report about the "Battery Swap" YEARS ago, and am still surprised that that's not the way it's done. I guess it makes too much sense.

[Subdeacon Joe]

1 minute ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

As I mentioned in our last exchange, I had seen a report about the "Battery Swap" YEARS ago, and am still surprised that that's not the way it's done. I guess it makes too much sense.

 

I think it's the upfront cost to the industry.  I don't know what the ratio of extra batteries to vehicles is, but I would be surprised if it's less than 3:1.

 

Then there's the storage of batteries.  Throw in that there would have to be an industry standard that everyone could agree on. 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

1 minute ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

I think it's the upfront cost to the industry.  I don't know what the ratio of extra batteries to vehicles is, but I would be surprised if it's less than 3:1.

 

Then there's the storage of batteries.  Throw in that there would have to be an industry standard that everyone could agree on. 

The industry standard is what I thought about too.

Storage wouldn't be a problem, according to the report I saw. The would be stored in a charging rack of some sort, and when you pulled up to replace yours, an automatic system would take your discharged battery out, place it in the charging rack, and replace it. The rack put me in mind of a large bread rack.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

15 hours ago, Still hand Bill said:

It can be done physically, look at the Chevy Volt. It has a system like that.  The problem is it takes so much energy to go down the highway at 80 mph, that 150 mpg is not physically possible.  

 

I don't understand where 150 mpg came from. That's an extremely high bar. Why not 75?

[Subdeacon Joe]

4 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

I don't understand where 150 mpg came from. That's an extremely high bar. Why not 75?

 

It might be an extrapolation from the capabilities of that portable diesel powered recharger someone posted.

 

My WAG was 125 mpg assuming use of 2 gallons of fuel to provide 250 miles of charge.

[Rip Snorter]

Isn't it a better than $10K battery?

[Texas Joker]

Does 2 gallons of file or equivalent get you 250 miles in a current EV?

[Warden Callaway]

Lithium battery technology will soon be obsolete? 

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

2 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

Isn't it a better than $10K battery?

 

How much should the average person who doesn't do all their own work spend on oil changes, coolant changes, belt replacement, transmission fluid changes, tune ups, and fuel in 12 years? 

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

9 minutes ago, Texas Joker said:

Does 2 gallons of file or equivalent get you 250 miles in a current EV?

 

Based on the literature, yes.  Or very close.  Maybe "only" 220.  Common equivalents are between 115 & 125 miles per gallon.

 

Even if it's only 200 miles, show us an ICE that gets 100mpg.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

On 9/9/2023 at 8:14 PM, Trigger Mike said:

being she hates white and grey

So much overuse of an angry and exaggerated term, when "prefers blue" would be quite adequate. 

[Cypress Sun]

A bill has been introduced in Florida to address the loss of "road" taxes due to EVs. some general info below.

 

Here’s why it may soon cost Floridians more to have an electric vehicle (fox13news.com)

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

10 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

A bill has been introduced in Florida to address the loss of "road" taxes due to EVs. some general info below.

 

Here’s why it may soon cost Floridians more to have an electric vehicle (fox13news.com)

 

 

 

And? Seems to take care of one of the big complaints about EVs and not add that much per-mile cost to owners.  Seems like a win-win.

[Cypress Sun]

4 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

And? Seems to take care of one of the big complaints about EVs and not add that much per-mile cost to owners.  Seems like a win-win.

 

I just read about it this morning so I don't think that it has been voted on yet.

 

You're right though, seems like a fair compromise to me but then again, I don't own an EV.

[Subdeacon Joe]

2 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

I just read about it this morning so I don't think that it has been voted on yet.

 

You're right though, seems like a fair compromise to me but then again, I don't own an EV.

 

Several states are doing this.  I think that the wethers and capons finally realized that they can't just keep on increasing gas taxes.

[Trigger Mike]

2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

So much overuse of an angry and exaggerated term, when "prefers blue" would be quite adequate. 

Actually if you knew how many times the same salesman shows her a white vehicle even after repeated reminders how much she hates it, then you’d know it’s not over used.  A purple passion hatred comes close

[Trigger Mike]

The driver who picked up the lightning told me how bad it was.  Not only did he pick it up with 20 minutes driving time left but barely made it to a charging station, THEN had to download an app to connect the car to the charger and pay a good amount for each minute.  Spent an hour and a half in Walmart and still not fully charged. Barely made it to GA.  

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

46 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

And? Seems to take care of one of the big complaints about EVs and not add that much per-mile cost to owners.  Seems like a win-win.

But still somebody will complain about it. 

Puts me in a mind of what happened with cigarette taxes about 20 years ago. One of the "agreements" to settle a "Big Tobacco" law suite was that the state would use a certain portion of cigarette taxes to pay for "Stop Smoking" promotions and programs. When these proved effective, and people stopped smoking as much, they complained that the state wasn't making enough money off of cigarette taxes.

[Subdeacon Joe]

17 minutes ago, Trigger Mike said:

The driver who picked up the lightning told me how bad it was.  Not only did he pick it up with 20 minutes driving time left but barely made it to a charging station, THEN had to download an app to connect the car to the charger and pay a good amount for each minute.  Spent an hour and a half in Walmart and still not fully charged. Barely made it to GA.  

 

Ok, so he's incompetent and couldn't figure out how to load the app, something that should take less than 5 minutes.  "A good amount," what was the total?  $25?  As opposed to maybe $150 to fill a tank?  

 

Chargers do slow down for the last 10% to prevent an overcharge event.   And most commercial chargers shut off at 60 minutes.  So that "four hours to charge" you were told was a load of manure.  

 

 

 

[Still hand Bill]

3 hours ago, Texas Joker said:

Does 2 gallons of file or equivalent get you 250 miles in a current EV?

Close.   If you look at a Chevy Volt which runs on gas or electric, it gets 40 ish mpg on gas and a fictitious gas equivalent of 120 ish on electric. The fallacy is that you could turn that gas into getting a car 120 miles.  You can’t as any process to convert the gas to electricity, put it in a battery and then drive will result in fewer mpg than just running a modern gasoline engine.  Imho it’s all a marketing scam pushed by people who want to sell EV’s. Yes EV use a lot less energy (1/3 to 1/4) or go further than ice on the same amount of energy.  This is   simply due to electric motors being 90+% efficient vs gasoline engines 25-30%.   In the real world, people either talk miles per kw or watt per mile (Tesla) as that is a useful metric in figuring how far you can go or how much it costs to drive.  
 

the problem is batteries have an energy density of about 300wh/kg, while gasoline is about 12000.  So gasoline weighs 40 times less for the same stored energy.   In use since gas in 1/4 as efficient, the end result is gas weighs 10x less to go the same distance.   Until batteries get better many use cases are not possible as the amount of energy required weighs too much or is too big.