DEF deleted truck

[Trigger Mike]

I found a used f250 that the previous owner deleted and tuned the DEF .  Wondering what consequences I may get entail driving it in areas more civilized than South Georgia 

[JD Lud]

If you don’t have to emissions test and do all the work yourself probably not an issue….heck you probably didn’t even notice when you bought it and had no idea it had been modified…..

 

If you took it to a dealer, I don’t know how it is for on road but for off road they are required to return it to its original state…or face very large fines if caught.  Even if they detect an ECU flash they should wipe and reload original.  

 

 

[Arkansas Jim 107095]

Local mechanic told me a fellow from AR got caught in CO with a converted truck. Cost him in the neighborhood of 10 grand. I decided not to mess with my truck 

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

My 2008 F-350 has the DPF delete. My cousins F-250 same. My neighbor across the street as well with a Ram 2500. Several others in my immediate neighborhood. This side of the mountain no emissions test required. Some areas close to the front range also. Go over to the east slope fairly frequently, see plenty of deleted trucks over there. Guess the police have more important stuff to deal with. No problems dealing with independent shops, don’t know about the dealers since I don’t go there. 
YMMV

Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[Texas Joker]

07 was def on class 7/8 trucks I thought 2011 was when pickups got the def/dpf treatment

[Trigger Mike]

3 hours ago, JD Lud said:

If you don’t have to emissions test and do all the work yourself probably not an issue….heck you probably didn’t even notice when you bought it and had no idea it had been modified…..

 

If you took it to a dealer, I don’t know how it is for on road but for off road they are required to return it to its original state…or face very large fines if caught.  Even if they detect an ECU flash they should wipe and reload original.  

 

 

I haven’t bought it yet, it is for sale at a local dealer.  The ford lot couldn’t sell it so they sent it to their dodge lot.  A 2022 f250 tuned and Def deleted.  Wonderful truck with ton of power but they want too much for it.  

[sassnetguy50]

2 hours ago, Arkansas Jim 107095 said:

Local mechanic told me a fellow from AR got caught in CO with a converted truck. Cost him in the neighborhood of 10 grand. I decided not to mess with my truck 

What was he doing that he got pulled over and checked?  I don't doubt the fines but there has to be more to the story.

[sassnetguy50]

1 hour ago, Texas Joker said:

07 was def on class 7/8 trucks I thought 2011 was when pickups got the def/dpf treatment

2010 f350 had dpf.  2011 f350 had def and dpf.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

59 minutes ago, Texas Joker said:

07 was def on class 7/8 trucks I thought 2011 was when pickups got the def/dpf treatment

Just the Diesel Particulate Filter system was required on 2007 to 2010 vehicles, though manufacturors used the time to implement various various emission reduction systems, mostly aimed at reducing NOx and particulate emission. January 1, 2010 DEF usage became mandatory under EPA guidelines and Federal regulations on all diesel trucks rated 3/4 ton or heavier. Ford used the transition time and tried several different emission control systems culminating in their current (POS) system. Some models of the Chevy/GM trucks using Duramax engines were first seen with DEF systems in 2007. Dodge/Ram was the first to fully implement DEF usage in 2008-2009. 

Typical DEF usage is supposed to be 2% of fuel, or put another way about 2-3 gallons DEF per 800 miles. In theory DEF trucks get better fuel mileage than non-DEF counterparts however there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that removing the DPF and DEF systems can improve fuel mileage by about 15-20 percent. You also have an additional fluid tank to fill that if low or empty will default to limp mode or even shut the engine off. DEF systems are also prone to clogging if the DEF level is consistently run low which again can cause limp mode or engine stop situation.

If you accidently mix fuel in the DEF tank or DEF in the fuel tank do NOT start the engine. It will destroy the SCR catalyst in the DPF ($$$ and non warranty), infiltrate your fuel lines (which are not compatable with DEF) and they will corrode, and can destroy the engine itself.

Penalties for modifying or removing an emissions control system:

https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/clean-air-act-vehicle-and-engine-enforcement-case-resolutions

Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[JD Lud]

Any warranty would be void most likely….

[Texas Joker]

Thanks @Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life I play in the heavy truck arena, never really paid attention to the light truck side. International tried to come up with their own method and those maxxforce motors almost put em out of business. 

 

@JD Lud if its deleted and you take it to the dealer mechanic they are required by reg to return it to proper configuration at your expense. 

[Still hand Bill]

Had a 08 tdi that had a dpf delete due to plugging the dpf and no way to clean it at the time. Was almost $6 k to replace it.  Did the dpf delete for $800 ish.  Ran far better without the dpf.  Picked up 5% on milage.   Had the dealer Re flash it by mistake, would not run.  Had to send out the ecu to get flashed again (dealer did it on their dime).   Probably won’t ever run a diesel again due to how much dpf and def choke the engines.  

[LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L]

I specifically looked for and bought a diesel tractor without the DPF (2007 Kubota L2800).  My 2002 K3500 Silverado doesn't use DEF or have DPF.  I'll go back to a gas burner if I have to buy new.  

[Texas Joker]

Just get an old one overhauled

[Warden Callaway]

3 hours ago, Texas Joker said:

Thanks @Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life I play in the heavy truck arena, never really paid attention to the light truck side. International tried to come up with their own method and those maxxforce motors almost put em out of business. 

 

@JD Lud if its deleted and you take it to the dealer mechanic they are required by reg to return it to proper configuration at your expense. 

 

Had an International Terrastar with no DEF.  Had some kind of space age exhaust system and some quirky running habits. 

[Trigger Mike]

Sounds to me like we need to get rid of the epa and a few other nonessential agencies 

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

My diesel mechanic will only delete for cash and leaving gutted components in place, so on appearance it looks like its all there. They'd have to disassemble the truck to tell, and they won't/can't do that. A shop or two around here got busted and fined in the 5 figure range.

 

[Trigger Mike]

10 minutes ago, Dirty Dan Dawkins said:

My diesel mechanic will only delete for cash and leaving gutted components in place, so on appearance it looks like its all there. They'd have to disassemble the truck to tell, and they won't/can't do that. A shop or two around here got busted and fined in the 5 figure range.

 

Now that idea I like better 

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

43 minutes ago, Trigger Mike said:

Sounds to me like we need to get rid of the epa and a few other nonessential agencies 

They are all nonessential. States can handle the essentials. The few arguably essential federal agencies are either so inept or so corrupt that their absence would go unnoticed. Most agencies are not even seeking to fulfill their supposed targeted objectives anyway. Their sole function is the business of establishing reliable voting blocks, creating jobs, protecting those jobs and remedying supposed inequities.

 

A-Z index of U.S. government departments and agencies | USAGov

Just deleting those under the letter "D" would be a great start.

Eliminate the CIA, IRS, the Federal Reserve, and FBI while you're at it. Private contractors could fill most of those roles with added efficiency and reduced costs.

To heck with the DoD, too. This ain't the Army, Navy, Air Force of old. They aren't concerned about the sovereignty of our borders, only the sovereignty of select nations and the politically connected's financial interests in those select nations.

 

[Trigger Mike]

It’s dumb to send tax dollars to the department of education just for them to skim off the top and dole out back down to us what they want us to have to use as they see fit

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

4 minutes ago, Trigger Mike said:

It’s dumb to send tax dollars to the department of education just for them to skim off the top and dole out back down to us what they want us to have to use as they see fit

It's an extortion scheme, pushing ideologies rather than education, and the teachers union leaders, and their allies, are the beneficiaries.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

On 6/23/2023 at 9:04 AM, Warden Callaway said:

 

Had an International Terrastar with no DEF.  Had some kind of space age exhaust system and some quirky running habits. 

After 2003/2004, the IH trucks went to crap either from engine or electrical issues. Ford and Navistar parted ways for valid reasons, though in fairness, government emissions standards pushed manufactures to create technology that would essentially be overcomplicated and problematic, regardless of the approach.

[Texas Joker]

Navistar tried a different approach than DEF/DPF more of an exhaust recirculation approach. Most CMV drivers were used to long idling times and those Navistar motors specifically said no idling. 

 

The tech didn't pan out and old habits die hard so the motors dogged out. Saw several maxxforce equipped sleeper trucks go for 6k at auction cause of the motor.

 

Now they have red tops in em

[JP McLintock]

If you want a newer ford get one with the 7.3 gas engine,  good power ok mileage and the breakdowns dont cost 5 grand.

[Arkansas Jim 107095]

I don’t know the rest of the story. I was asking my mechanic about deleting the DEF stuff. That was his reply. 

[J.D. Daily]

On 6/23/2023 at 6:04 AM, Warden Callaway said:

 

Had an International Terrastar with no DEF.  Had some kind of space age exhaust system and some quirky running habits. 

Navistar used engine tuning & flex credits to meet the 2010 model year NOX limit.   Bad decision they engines were POS's.  That is why they use Cummins engines.

Because CAT couldn't find an OEM that would sell CAT's last on-highway engine was model year 2009.  Only an CAT owned OEM could provide truck engine sales volume necessary to have a return on investment including parts sales.  The EPA NOX limit (grams/bHP-hr) in 2010 is too low to meet wo/ SCR system.  The NO & NO2 are reduced to N2 & H20 by reacting with ammonia gas.  Ammonia gas is produced from high purity urea dissolved in H20.  The hot engine exhaust gas converts the urea into ammonia by pyrolysis.  For highest conversion efficiency & minimize ammonia slip the mixture urea to NOX must be stoichiometric.  If the engine is tuned to minimize NOX two expensive NOX sensors aren't needed.   Tuning for lower NOX &/or using EGR increases fuel consumption while increasing PM emissions.  Unless a fleet operator buys only one mfg's engines MD & HD  engines are sold based on fuel consumption most engine mfg's try to maximize their efficiencies.  So,  the main difference between 2009 & 2010 engines is the NOX at the turbo before the aftertreatment is higher in 2010 engine.  Beside better fuel consumption the PM emissions are lower so DPF regeneration rate is lower.

P.S.  If you drive in CA with a diesel pickup truck with the DPF deleted you are running a high risk of getting caught.  The opaque exhaust plum is a dead giveaway.  You used to see road signs that listed a toll free number to report smoking vehicles.  In the 2007-9's I narced on a couple of newish 3/4 & 1 tons that besides having the DPF removed had hot chips & black box in the boost sensor circuit.  These trucks emitted black clouds a 60's 70's era Grayhound bus w/ normally aspirated Driptroit engine.ascending a mountain road grade.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

On 6/23/2023 at 2:12 PM, Texas Joker said:

Navistar tried a different approach than DEF/DPF more of an exhaust recirculation approach. Most CMV drivers were used to long idling times and those Navistar motors specifically said no idling. 

 

The tech didn't pan out and old habits die hard so the motors dogged out. Saw several maxxforce equipped sleeper trucks go for 6k at auction cause of the motor.

 

Now they have red tops in em

Definitely not good for utility trucks running pto all day. Freightliner took a big share of that market 

[Blackwater 53393]

JD!! 60s and 70s Detroit engines were NEVER “normally aspirated”!  They couldn’t run without the “Roots” style supercharger because they were two stroke engines and had no intake valves!!

 

Detroit Diesel didn’t produce a four stroke engine until 1980.  Most of those were/are turbocharged!!