Married Old Cowboy Seeking Lightest Red Dot 357 Load Suggestions

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

Hey, this could be Tinder for reloaders! , though I have no idea which direction to "swipe" 

Bullion Rose shoots 357 Mag in both her Ruger NMVs and her Marlin 1894CB.  I've been loading 3.2 gr of Red Dot under a 130 gr RNFP bullet for her use in all guns, for the sake of simplicity (for both of us).  How much lower than 3.2 gr can I go and still meet the SASS minimum Power Factor (60) and minimum muzzle velocity (400fps) requirements yet still produce a cartridge that will work reasonably well (and reliably) in both her rifle and pistols under that 130 gr bullet?  Thanks in advance.

[Michigan Slim]

Not much left to cut down using the .357 case. In .38 I'd say about 2.8 grains is lowest but that can still be inconsistent that low. Your at the bottom now pretty much. If you have Unique, try the same charge. Big difference. 

[Rip Snorter]

Why not just load 38 Special if the rifle will cycle them?

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

No one can answer your question.  The only way to know is to take your loads and shoot them over a chronograph with your guns.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

OK, thanks -- I do feel it is pretty light already, but was just wondering how low is too low.

26 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

Why not just load 38 Special if the rifle will cycle them?

Because I have a XL750 tool head set up to load 357Mag with my bullet of choice, and a boxcar load of 357 brass.  Plus, I shoot the same ammo in my 357Mag Browning B92 when I'm shooting B-Western, and that rifle absolutely will not feed 38SPL.  (It took a bunch of experimenting to find the right bullet shape and COAL combination that would reliably feed in the notoriously finicky B92, but once I got it right, the gun has run great ever since.)

[Rough 'N Ready Rob]

8 minutes ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

OK, thanks -- I do feel it is pretty light already, but was just wondering how low is too low.

Because I have a XL750 tool head set up to load 357Mag with my bullet of choice, and a boxcar load of 357 brass.  Plus, I shoot the same ammo in my 357Mag Browning B92 when I'm shooting B-Western, and that rifle absolutely will not feed 38SPL.  (It took a bunch of experimenting to find the right bullet shape and COAL combination that would reliably feed in the notoriously finicky B92, but once I got it right, the gun has run great ever since.)

I think you just answered your own question.  

[Flat Top Okie]

Hi Nostrum Damus,

Why not load a different bullet for pistol (say a 105). You can still use .357 brass but her pistols will be more pleasant to shoot. You can still use the same head.

Flat Top 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

24 minutes ago, Flat Top Okie said:

Hi Nostrum Damus,

Why not load a different bullet for pistol (say a 105). You can still use .357 brass but her pistols will be more pleasant to shoot. You can still use the same head.

Flat Top 

Of course, but one of the requirements of my little world is that she doesn't want to keep track of different cartridges for different guns -- not even when loading her soon-to-be-brand-new loading strips.  I also find that the smaller lighter bullets do not seat as reliably and result in more crushed cases, though that's almost certainly operator inexperience/error (though others have said exactly the same thing to me in the past).

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

33 minutes ago, Flat Top Okie said:

Hi Nostrum Damus,

Why not load a different bullet for pistol (say a 105). You can still use .357 brass but her pistols will be more pleasant to shoot. You can still use the same head.

Flat Top 

It's called KISS 

[Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646]

I have a tool head for my .357 cowboy loads and a toolhead for her .38 cowboy loads. I use the same amount of Cleanshot in both. I no longer load Red Dot because of availability.

 

Imis

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

I load slightly lower than your loads but I shoot with 38 spl cases.  With the longer 357 cases, IMO you are good to go.  If it works in your firearms with no problem, why change. 

["Big Boston"]

Calibre	357 Mag			Date Loaded		2018-08-31
Powder	Red Dot			Weight in Grains		4.25
Bullet	Xmetal Comanchero Hi-Tek			Weight in Grains		125
Primer	Fed 100			Loaded OAL
Case	Federal 357 Magnum			Weight in Grains
Velocity Av	866/890	Es	49.6/60.6	Sd	19.9/26.9	Shots	5>/5<
Comments	Abandoned Red Dot as a powder of interest.

 

My hat's off to you, it sure didn't work for me. IIRC it got even worse as I went down. Chronographing was mentioned and I definitely agree, it is the easiest way to find out what is happening. For this particular load you can see that the average velocity difference for powder position was 24 fps, Extreme spread 50+, and Standard deviation 20+. I have fairly loose standards for cowboy, but IMO Red Dot does not work at low powder density and a light bullet. I only tried a couple of primers and no magnum ones. 

 

Calibre	357 Magnum			Date Loaded		2022-04-08
Powder	452AA (Ontario Keg)			Weight in Grains		3.3 (Dillon)
Bullet	148-358-WC LEE (.358)			Weight in Grains		148 - 150
Primer	WW SP			Loaded OAL		1.37
Case	FEDERAL 357 MAGNUM			Weight in Grains
Velocity Av	805/808	Es	29/20.7	Sd	11/8.12	Shots	5>/5<

 

These are numbers more to my liking. The WC bullet reduces the powder chamber considerably. But these will not feed in a rifle, strictly handgun. This load shows no ignition issues IMO.

 

BB 

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Big Boston mentioned something that should be considered.  In any kind of case, if you are trying to go lighter and results start getting iffy, try a magnum primer.  I've switched to mag primers for my V-V powder .38's because it was recommended by Long Hunter who developed the loads, but I'll be buying magnum primers for all my loads now as there is really no good reason not to for medium and lower power cowboy loads.

[bgavin]

OP,
In my published data, I have the lowest recoil in 3.0 lb handgun with 125~130 grain bullets, in ascending order.

 

125 grains
Unique
Trail Boss
Blue Dot
Bullseye
Herco
No. 5
Clays
HS-6
Titegroup
Universal
HP-38
231
700-X

 

130 grains
700-x

 

The published data indicates Red Dot is not the right choice for low charge and light bullets.

[Kirk James]

ND-As suggested earlier, try 2.8 grains of Red Dot with your 130 grain bullet.  As Larsen suggested, use a chronograph to check for consistency.  You should be fine on your power factor.  Always best to test your loads in your own firearms.  Good luck with your results.

["Big Boston"]

I'm not a ballistic engineer, so a lot of what I think is happening is just me trying to rationalize the results I'm seeing on the chronograph and target. I bought a Uberti 1851 Masson-Richards conversion in 38 Spl and it had issues that required me to build some ammunition specifically for it. It was used, supposedly unfired, but in fact someone had fired a cylinder or two in it and then set it aside and stored it in the safe for many years. The first half inch of the barrel was crud'd up with powder residue and when I removed the crud, the corrosion was very noticeable. My regular ammunition would lead this area something severe. I tried just about every combo that was at my disposal and ended up using Lyman 358477 cast on the hard side, at least 14 BHN. It also didn't like anything fast so I ran the powder as light as I felt it could go. After firing a fair number of cylinders the action started hanging up, and the problem was diagnosed to  needing a new hand. In addition I had a primer piercing issue that I had to work out. I got around to replacing the hand two days ago and i set up the Dillon 550 to load some ammo for chronographing. Until you chronograph a load, you really don't have a clue as to what is really happening. 

 

Calibre	38 S&W Special			Date Loaded		2023-05-03
Powder	452AA (Ontario Keg)			Weight in Grains		3.3 gr (Dillon)
Bullet	358477 (BHN 14 +, 0.358”)			Weight in Grains		154 (-1/+0.5)
Primer	WSP			Loaded OAL		1.45
Case	R- P 38 SPL			Weight in Grains		66 avg.
Velocity Av	699/706	Es	44/16.3	Sd	15.9/7.48	Shots	5>/5<

 

 The results were not as good as I had hoped, but the pluses outweighed the minuses IMHO. It shot to the sights, hitting steel was not an issue, the average velocity for powder position was only 7 fps apart. Standard deviation for powder position rearward was 7.5 fps, with only the powder forward Standard deviation being a bit more than I like. I'll just be taking the easy way and just shoot the load. 

 

The 358477 is a bit long in the shank, it cuts down the volume of the powder chamber which helps with the ignition of small quantities of powder. If you look back at my previous post that has the 357 wadcutter load, the powder chamber volume is just about identical, so I used the same load. I would have guessed that my velocity would have been about the same, but it was not. That is why you need to chronograph. 

 

Igniting such small amounts of powder gets a bit tricky. It is a bit of a balancing act. Too much brisance and usually the powder forward gets better at the expense of the powder rearward. And sometimes the results are unpredictable. In addition, I've seen differences in results with different brands of brass. If you examine the the inside of the case, the area at the bottom around the flash hole is made differently in some brass. This sometimes is a factor, it has been for me with 38/357 with 452 powder. 

 

Our club is small, I only know of one other shooter that uses a chronograph to develop loads. I don't like setting up and shooting over a chronograph, quite frankly I find it to be a bit of a task, but IMHO I know of a better way to test loads.

 

BB 

 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

To wrap this up, I decided to stick with the 3.2 gr charge.  This all started because a pard told me that I was fighting the recoil and muzzle flip in my .45 Colt OMVs for which I have been loading 5.5 gr of Red Dot under .452 Chey-Cast 200 gr coated RNFP bullets.  (Again, following the KISS Principle, I use the same .45 Colt ammo in both pistols and rifle.)  At said pard's recommendation, I reduced the charge to 4.0 gr and tested them yesterday.  They all went bang in both my Ruger OMVs and Uberti Yellow Boy Winchester 1866 and knocked down plates on the pistol plate rack without any problem at all.  The difference in recoil between the 4.0 gr rounds and the previously loaded ones (with 5.5 gr) was obvious and substantial.  However, in view of a lot of the comments from y'all, I think that dropping down lower than 3.2 gr in the .357Mag rounds (with 130 gr RNFP bullets) could be problematic, all things considered, so I'm just going to leave them at 3.2 gr.  They are quite manageable for the Mrs. -- so if it ain't broke, why fix it (thanks for reminding me, I.M. Crossdraw)?