Unburnt powder? Reloading issue

[Doc Moses]

Just switched away from Red dot when it went extinct and have been using n320. Measures the same no worries. I shoot 44 mag/special rugers and 357 rifle. This time when reloading I decided to do all Mag cases for my pistols so I would not get carbon build up in the end of the chamber.  Have been using all specials before. Several times my pistol spit fire like it was black powder! When cleaning there was some n320 sitting on the frame. Why did it not all burn?  My loads are light but very close to listed minimums. When I was shepherding my last red dot I shot much lighter.  With no chrono I am guessing about 700+ persecond. 200 grain bullet, solid crimp. Is it just the slightly longer case and more space in there?  Would a more serious crimp help? N320 is a tubular powder and red dot is a flake, does that effect it?  Sorry to bother everyone but I started reloading 30+ years ago and have never had this issue. 

Thanks

[Perro Del Diablo]

Are you loading to special minimum. The longer case and different powder can be the problem.  If using same crimp as before probably not issue. Sounds like not quite enough pressure to seal long enough for complete burn.

[Doc Moses]

After reading some other threads I think you are right. I need to up the powder or go back to specials

[Still hand Bill]

You could always just seat the bullets deeper.  That would up the pressure as well. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I think a magnum primer has been recommended for minimal loads of N320 as well, at least for .38's.

[Assassin]

More powder, better crimp, or heavier bullet. 

[Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646]

All the above

 

Imis

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

What you might be calling Unburnt powder may be burnt and just hanging around in the case, barrel or frame.

Gather up this unburnt powder and try lighting it with a match. Will usually have a brown color to it and not a shiny surface color.

==============================================================================

Powder equivalent chart by manufacturer.  http://www.adiworldclass.com.au/powder-equivalents/

 

Red Dot is not same as N320. Red Dot does not have a Vihtavuori equivalent.

 

Clays International

Green Dot   IMR

700X     Winchester

WST    Accurate Arms

AA 2

Vihtavuori N320 are equivalent powders.

[Doc Moses]

1 hour ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

What you might be calling Unburnt powder may be burnt and just hanging around in the case, barrel or frame.

Gather up this unburnt powder and try lighting it with a match. Will usually have a brown color to it and not a shiny surface color.

==============================================================================

Powder equivalent chart by manufacturer.  http://www.adiworldclass.com.au/powder-equivalents/

 

Red Dot is not same as N320. Red Dot does not have a Vihtavuori equivalent.

 

Clays International

Green Dot   IMR

700X     Winchester

WST    Accurate Arms

AA 2

Vihtavuori N320 are equivalent powders.

What I meant by equivalent is that I am using the same volume of n320 as I did Red Dot. Different velicities but both on the bottom of the listed loads.

[Doc Fill 'Em 67797]

So what’s the problem? Unburnt powder is no big deal and fire out the barrel is cool! 

[Trailrider #896]

57 minutes ago, Doc Moses said:

What I meant by equivalent is that I am using the same volume of n320 as I did Red Dot. Different velicities but both on the bottom of the listed loads.

Smokeless powders, especially from different manufacturers, CANNOT be substituted volume for volume! In addition, increasing the case volume reduces the pressure, which reduces the burning rate of progressive-burning powders, which virtually all small arms powders are. You definitely need to increase the charge WEIGHT, but you need to consult the recommended charge weights for the particular powders and manufacturers, and bullet weights. Don't know if you have a chronograph, but that can be very helpful. 

 

To give you an example of what different case volumes can result in changes to the powder charges, I wanted to produce the same velocities with the same bullet weight, but using .44-40 and .44 Magnum cartridges in my convertible Ruger Old Model Vaqueros. Because the internal volume of the .44 Magnum brass is LESS than that of the .44-40 brass, I had to reduce the charge weight for Universal powder by about 7 percent in the magnum case to obtain the same muzzle velocity in the 7-1/2 inch barrel. 

 

Unburned powder remaining is definitely an indication of too low combustion pressure, which can lead to problems you don't want to have. Follow the recommended load WEIGHTS in the appropriate manuals.

[Savvy Jack]

Quote

 

Phase two test results:

Six loads were selected to be loaded in both 44-40 and 44 Magnum cases for chronographing via the Oehler M35P using the Ruger OM Vaquero 7 ½” barrel revolver with both its original 44-40 cylinder and with the FTBH 44 magnum cylinder. I’ll also list the velocities chronographed with selected loads in the 44-40 Chiappa M92 carbine with 20” barrel.

Load………………………44-40 fps…44 Mag fps…M92 fps

429-200-RF/6.0 gr BE……..947……… 1016………..1188
43-206H/6.0 gr BE………...903…………970………..1121
43-230G/6.0 gr BE………...881…………937
TL430-240-SWC/6.0 gr 700X..858……...937………..1061
429-200-RF/25 gr RL7……1053………..1130…… ..1428
43-230G/25 gr RL7………..1071……….1163
TL430-240-SWC/25 gr RL7..1157…........1204……….1488

All loads in 44-40 cases gave less fps than the same load in 44 magnum cases in the same revolver. The average difference is the 44-40 produced, on average, 93.4% as much velocity in the 44-40 cases as the same load did in the 44 Magnum cases. That does seem to suggest that what I had read years back about the 44-40 producing 95% +/- as much psi as with the same load in a 44 Magnum case is correct. So, is there a correlation we can use to determine safe pressure 44-40 loads with pressure testing being done in the 44 Magnum pressure test barrel? It appears so. Since all was equal in the revolver except the chambering and since velocity is directly related to pressure [all other equal as was in this test] I think we can safely conclude a load that produces so much pressure in the 44 Magnum will only produce 93 – 95% of that pressure in the 44-40 cartridge.

Note; nothing in this test is meant to imply any 44 magnum level psi is safe in any 44-40 chambered firearm. This test is only inferring we can find safe 44-40 level psi’s by testing 44-40 level loads in the 44 magnum test barrel.

Last edited by Larry Gibson; 08-12-2020 at 11:20 AM.

 

 

 

 

photo credit, Larry Gibson

44-40 and 44 magnum cases with 41.7 gr ball powder (case capacity check, not an actual load...geeeesh)

[Doc Moses]

1 hour ago, Trailrider #896 said:

Smokeless powders, especially from different manufacturers, CANNOT be substituted volume for volume! In addition, increasing the case volume reduces the pressure, which reduces the burning rate of progressive-burning powders, which virtually all small arms powders are. You definitely need to increase the charge WEIGHT, but you need to consult the recommended charge weights for the particular powders and manufacturers, and bullet weights. Don't know if you have a chronograph, but that can be very helpful. 

 

To give you an example of what different case volumes can result in changes to the powder charges, I wanted to produce the same velocities with the same bullet weight, but using .44-40 and .44 Magnum cartridges in my convertible Ruger Old Model Vaqueros. Because the internal volume of the .44 Magnum brass is LESS than that of the .44-40 brass, I had to reduce the charge weight for Universal powder by about 7 percent in the magnum case to obtain the same muzzle velocity in the 7-1/2 inch barrel. 

 

Unburned powder remaining is definitely an indication of too low combustion pressure, which can lead to problems you don't want to have. Follow the recommended load WEIGHTS in the appropriate manuals.

I don't just grab a powder measure and go to town. That is crazy. The powder measure I was using for Red Dot ended up being the same measure that the n330 uses for the same weight bullet.  (I was hoping a larger measure would be needed to avoid these kind of issues but no such luck.) This means that there is the same volume of powder in the case for both powders as stated above. I did switch to mag cases instead of specials. I will see about my crimps. If nothing works out I will switch back to specials when I shoot up the mags I have loaded. Thanks.

[Doc Moses]

2 hours ago, Doc Fill 'Em 67797 said:

So what’s the problem? Unburnt powder is no big deal and fire out the barrel is cool! 

It was kinda cool but...surprising and don't want a squib!

["Big Boston"]

From my experience the what looks like unburnt powder is just hat. I gathered some up and lit it, it burns. 

 

It's not unusual if you use slower burning powders and loads at or below book minimum. You mentioned a chronograph, using one would give you a bit more insight. I chrono my loads two groups, one powder position forward and one powder position rearward. It's not all that unusual to get 50 or even 100 fps difference. After that it a matter of trying different primers and regular and magnum to see if the load can be salvaged. Some can not be made to work. That's life. 

The only Viht powder I've worked with is Tin Star. I was able to go down to a bit over 7 gr and got about 850 fps with decent numbers. $$ mag, LEE 429-240 GC (not for cowboy). 

The powder that I found to be the best for the 44 Mag was Trail Boss. Red Dot from 3.5 to 5 or 6 worked decent. 3.5 with a 200 got me 750 fps. 

 

BB

[Doc Moses]

Thanks everyone for the input.  I have re-crimped all my remaining rounds.  If the problem persist I have a little heavier load I will try next before moving back to Special cases.  Again, I appreciate everyone taking out time to help me out with your experience!

Have a great night.

[Trailrider #896]

Savy Jack - Your data supports mine, just due to the larger volume of capacity of the .44-40 brass, versus the .44 Mangle-em cases. In my case, I used Winchester .44-40 brass and Remington .44 Magnum. The difference in pressure generated for a given load in the different cases is inversely proportional to the difference in case capacities. The difference in pressures will affect the burning rate of the progressive-burning smokeless powders.

Thanks for publishing your data.  Of course my advise to consult the handbooks and manufacturers' data holds. 

[Pb Mark]

Been looking at powders since about out of Unique and never tried VV320.  Reading this thread prompted me to take a look at it.

 

What I found interesting about the VV300 series of powders is from their website:

 

"We have recently undertaken some major improvements in the production of our high-quality N300 series powders. This newest change involves the application of graphite as a finishing step in production. As always, our smokeless powders undergo a stringent series of quality control checks throughout the manufacturing process. Before it ever ends up in a reloading bottle, we’ve checked and rechecked it at every step of the way. Our goal is to continuously improve our powders to give our reloading customers every possible competitive advantage in any shooting discipline.

In this latest improvement, we have changed the manner in which the nearly completed powder is given its final coating. Graphite is added to the surface of these powders during the vacuum drying stage. The graphite serves to eliminate static electricity, and makes the finished powder flow smoothly and evenly through loading machines and powder measures."

 

Did this recent change in the formulation make it a bit dirty like my low charge weights of Unique are?  No clue just thought this was interesting, so posted it.

 

 

[Griff]

On 3/14/2023 at 5:04 PM, Doc Moses said:

... Red dot when it went extinct...

Where is this?  As far as I can tell Red Dot is still available, even if it is in short supply.  

[Doc Moses]

PB Mark, it seems to burn cleaner than my Red Dot did but I never used it before to know if it burns dirtier now.

Griff: from abou June 2020 until the end of 2021 I looked for Red Dot and couldn't find any. Where I live I haven't discovered any stores that sell reloading supplies so we rely on online people. When I finally gave up on finding Red Dot I bought the n320 at the beginning of 2022. I haven't looked 4 Red Dot since. I have kind of committed to N320 now. Hopefully when I am down to 1 pound there will be some options. I bought 3 pounds. As a 12-14 match a year guy, most of them local, that should last me awhile.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

3 hours ago, Doc Moses said:

PB Mark, it seems to burn cleaner than my Red Dot did but I never used it before to know if it burns dirtier now.

Griff: from abou June 2020 until the end of 2021 I looked for Red Dot and couldn't find any. Where I live I haven't discovered any stores that sell reloading supplies so we rely on online people. When I finally gave up on finding Red Dot I bought the n320 at the beginning of 2022. I haven't looked 4 Red Dot since. I have kind of committed to N320 now. Hopefully when I am down to 1 pound there will be some options. I bought 3 pounds. As a 12-14 match a year guy, most of them local, that should last me awhile.

On January 26 I posted that Natchez had lots of Alliant powders in stock.  Red Dot, Unique, American Select, Clay Dot, etc.  Gone now.  Sorry you missed it.  But N320 is great, that's what I'm using now for my .38's and am very happy with it. (3.2gr with 125gr bullet and mag primer).

[Pb Mark]

I just have been shooting Unique for a long time and did not keep up on all the powders.  It is difficult to meter and also needs larger charges, better crimp and heavier bullets to burn cleaner, but definitely not a clean powder.  Use it from light 45-70 at 13.5 grains and 300 grain lead, to hot 9mm using 147 grain lead. When I go to the local store for powder, lots of products I know nothing about without reading.  All my fault.  Just needing to get up to date with the modern factory reloading data available from the powder manufacturers.  For 38 caliber light indoor bullseye loads, used to use AA#2.  It's a fast, clean powder that fits CAS 38 caliber applications too.  Still have a few pounds.  No reason I've stuck with Unique.  Probably the same reason we stick with a certain old vehicle or worn-out shirt, etc.  Just because we like it.  For the same reason, I only shoot lead.  It's a symptom of getting older and set in my ways, I guess.  Seems like n320 is also a fitting choice should one prefer it.