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Quigley vs Hartford


Bisley Joe

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Looking at the Shiloh site, was wondering the differences between the Hartford Sharps and the Quigley.

 

The Quigley brings the following:

  • Military Buttstock
  • Patch Box
  • No Cheek rest
  • No Pistol Grip
  • Standard Grade Wood
  • 34” Heavy Octagon Barrel
  • 45-70 or 45-110 Caliber
  • Pewter Tip
  • Hartford Collar
  • Double Set Triggers
  • Semi Buckhorn Rear Sight
  • Midrange Vernier Tang Sight
  • #111 Globe Aperture Front Sight
  • Antique or Std Color Finish (specify)
  • 2 or 3 Gold Inlay Initials in Gold Oval (please specify initials in the comments box)

 

Don't care about the Patch Box, or the gold inlay initials.

Would get it in 45/110.

 

Is it sensible to get a Hartford with the rest of the stuff other than gold inlay and patch box and lower the price? Sorry if I am missing the obvious.

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4 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

What are your goals with the rifle?

The military buttstock is brutal on recoil, and not the best for real long range(500+ yds).

Goals with rifle is doing long range shooting.

So the shotgun stock is better? Or another type?

 

4 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OP, have you ever fired a. 45-110?

I have not, but have fired 45-70. But I guess likes saying I've fired a shotgun but not a 500 Nitro Express.

Still, I will shoot black powder exclusively. Probably with paper patched bullets.

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I suggest either a #1 or Montana Roughrider with hvy octagon bbl.

I do STRONGLY urge you to fire a .45-2 7/8(110)before buying one. 

Look hard at the .45-90 cartridge. 

Love my Shiloh #1 in that caliber w/30" hvy bbl.

And yes, I have fired several Sharps in .45-110.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I suggest either a #1 or Montana Roughrider with hvy octagon bbl.

I do STRONGLY urge you to fire a .45-2 7/8(110)before buying one. 

Look hard at the .45-90 cartridge. 

Love my Shiloh #1 in that caliber w/30" hvy bbl.

And yes, I have fired several Sharps in .45-110.

 

 

 

Thanks again!

 

Why the Montana Roughrider? What's the benefit/s?

 

I was also looking at the 1874 Creedmoor Target Rifle.

I love the rifle in Quigley since I saw it in the theater, but I don't want to just copy what he had either. Did you find the 45-110 particularly punishing to shoot?

 

I don't want a show rifle that I will be worried about scratching: I want something that will be shot and, although I will treat it well and not toss it down embankments etc. I am not one to worry too much about some dings and scratches. To me its a working rifle and, like everything else, you can;t take it with you so enjoy the hell out of it.

 

Below are the two I was looking at with configuration. Any idea why the price difference?

My goal is to do long distance shoots and I want good accuracy. Will be using black powder loads, likely with paper patched bullets.

Takes so damn long to get these I figure I can put down the deposit and have enough time to save up by the time its finished, probably at a few hundred more than when I started the process.

I appreciate your advice!

  • 1874 MONTANA ROUGHRIDER
    1 x $2,889.00
    CALIBER: 45-110 
  • BARREL LENGTH: 34" 
  • BARREL WEIGHT: HVY.OCT 
  • BARREL FEATURES: NONE 
  • WOOD UPGRADES: STANDARD 
  • WOOD FINISHES: NONE 
  • LENGTH OF PULL - SHOTGUN BUTTSTOCKS ONLY!: NONE  
  • BUTTPLATE: TRADITIONAL STEEL (+$96.00
  • METAL FINISHES: STANDARD COLOR CASED 
  • BACKGROUND FILL - (ENGRAVED FRENCH GRAY ONLY): NONE 
  • BRASS ESCUTCHEONS: BRASS (+$25.00
  • CUSTOM BEDDING: CUSTOM BED (+$50.00
  • SLING SWIVELS: NONE 
  • TRADITIONAL CHECKERING: NONE 
  • FOREARM TIPS: NONE 
  • HARTFORD COLLAR: HARTFORD COLLAR (+$62.00
  • POLISHED SCREWS: NONE 
  • SCHNABBLE ON PISTOL GRIP: NONE 
  • REAR BARREL SIGHT: SEMI-BUCKHORN 
  • VERNIER TANG SIGHTS: #103 - LR BUFFALO SOULE (+$485.00
  • FRONT SIGHT: BLADE - STANDARD 
  • DRILL AND TAP MVA SCOPE: NONE 

 

  • 1874 CREEDMOOR TARGET RIFLE
    1 x $4,161.00
    CALIBER: 45-110 
  • BARREL LENGTH: 34" 
  • BARREL WEIGHT: HVY.OCT 
  • BARREL FEATURES: POLISHED - Standard 
  • WOOD UPGRADES: EXTRA FANCY - Standard 
  • WOOD FINISHES: AA - Standard 
  • LENGTH OF PULL - SHOTGUN BUTTSTOCKS ONLY!: NONE  
  • BUTTPLATE: TRADITIONAL STEEL (+$96.00
  • METAL FINISHES: STANDARD COLOR CASED 
  • BACKGROUND FILL - (ENGRAVED FRENCH GRAY ONLY): FILL (+$33.00
  • BRASS ESCUTCHEONS: BRASS (+$25.00
  • CUSTOM BEDDING: CUSTOM BED (+$50.00
  • SLING SWIVELS: NONE 
  • TRADITIONAL CHECKERING: NONE 
  • FOREARM TIPS: PEWTER TIP - Standard 
  • POLISHED SCREWS: FIREBLUED - Standard 
  • REAR BARREL SIGHT: SEMI-BUCKHORN (+$80.00
  • VERNIER TANG SIGHTS: #103 - LR BUFFALO SOULE (+$485.00
  • FRONT SIGHT: SHILOH #111 (+$80.00
  • DRILL AND TAP MVA SCOPE: NONE 
 
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On the MR, very easy to add a strap on cheek rest for extreme long range(800 yds+)when using a tang sight.

The Creedmoor only has a single trigger, as per Creedmoor rules.

MR-Go with semi-fancy wood and AAA finish.

You want a MVA #113 front sight.

Stay with a 30" hvy bbl. 34" gets real muzzle heavy for any off-hand shooting.

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49 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

On the MR, very easy to add a strap on cheek rest for extreme long range(800 yds+)when using a tang sight.

The Creedmoor only has a single trigger, as per Creedmoor rules.

MR-Go with semi-fancy wood and AAA finish.

You want a MVA #113 front sight.

Stay with a 30" hvy bbl. 34" gets real muzzle heavy for any off-hand shooting.

Great information! Thank you!

The single trigger is a deal breaker, so thanks for pointing that out!

 

  • Why the MVA #113 front sight? I trust your advice, but would like to know why.
  • Also, I am thinking of the semi-buckhorn rear sight. Do you think that's good, or full buckhorn? Why?
  • As far as the semi-fancy wood and AAA, is it just for looks? Adds abut $700 to it.

 

Thank you again sir!

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For target use. The inserts are nice to have. Plus a more repeatable sight picture.

BTW, you want a Hadley Eye Cup to go with the tang sight.

Stay away from the adjustable front sights. They're a PITA.

Stay with the semi-buck sight. Less sight interference when using a tang sight. 

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2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

For target use. The inserts are nice to have. Plus a more repeatable sight picture.

BTW, you want a Hadley Eye Cup to go with the tang sight.

Stay away from the adjustable front sights. They're a PITA.

Stay with the semi-buck sight. Less sight interference when using a tang sight. 

Great!

 Thanks!

 

Does the semi-fancy wood and AAA finish matter beyond looks? It adds over $700 to the rifle and I would be fine with something like plain walnut.

 

What say you?

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I shoot a 45-90 which really gets your attention.  My brother shot a 45-110.  That was a truly brutal cartridge.  He sold it and quit BPCR.  He did win most events that he entered so it was a very accurate cartridge but it wrecked his shoulder.
 

My suggestion is 45-70.  

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Howdy

 

A buddy of mine had a Quigely chambered for 45-110. It was brutal to shoot.

 

If you absolutely have to have a 45-110, be aware that shells for 45-70 are much more easily available than for any of the longer 45 cartridges.

 

If you are going to be loading Smokeless there is no point getting anything longer than 45-70, you can put enough Smokeless in a 45-70 to do anything.

 

The only point to the longer cartridges is if you are going to be loading Black Powder. Then you can stuff a little bit more powder into the longer cartridges.

 

I strongly suggest you stay away from a deep crescent butt plate, as I can see is on the Quigley model. That is the reason my friend's rifle was so brutal.

 

Shooting off hand you can mount a rifle with a deep crescent butt plate the way it was designed to be shot, with the rifle hiked out a little bit so the crescent is encircling the shoulder joint. Shooting prone or from a bench this is more awkward, and if you mount the rifle to the meaty part of your shoulder you are going to see stars as the points dig into your flesh on recoil.

 

When I was shopping for a Sharps a whole bunch of years ago I went with the 45-70 Pedersoli Silhouette model.

 

Plain Jane wood, no checkering, no fancy fore end cap. It did have everything I wanted, straight shotgun style butt plate, pistol grip, and double set triggers. Notice how flat this buttplate is even compared to the flatter Shiloh butt plates. 45-70 does everything I want in a Sharps. I have not fired it for a few years now, I gave up when I could not see targets out about 200 yards. Now that I have had my catacract operations I should be able to see targets that far out and I should try it again.

 

pn2cgMmrj

 

 

 

 

Just so you know, I bought this rifle through Dixie Gunworks a bunch of years ago and it was on sale for $800. The price has gone up a bit since then.

 

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/page/product/product_id/8340/category_id/314/product_name/CR0415+PEDERSOLI+SHARPS+M1874+SILHOUETTE+RIFLE%2C+.45-70

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Listen to "The Original Lumpy Gritz "  he has given you great advise!  

I shoot a 45-90  in my Shiloh.  And, at 1000 yards, it does the job nicely.   If you want  a long range target rifle then buy a heavy rifle.   Recoil is not your friend..  After a 50 round match, you will appreciate a heavy rifle.   If you want a hunting rifle  then buy a lighter rifle.   Neither rifle will do the job very well.

 

 

 

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i appreciate the post , its been enlightening reading through it , mine is 4570 quigly , ive not been disappointed but then i was not looking at it quite like you are when i bought it , hope you enjoy whatever you get 

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It’s been great to read the comments. You all have much more experience than I in this-especially since I have zero. Thank you!!!

 

Lumpy Gritz’s advice especially has been really helpful...

 

Thank you Lumpy Gritz!

 

So far what I am leaning towards is LG’s advice of a shotgun type stock. I am, however, pretty decided on the 110.

Years ago, not long after seeing Quigley in he theater, there was a man in a Tandy Leather shop and we started talking. I mentioned CAS/SASS and that I loved the Quigley rifle. He said he had one and we walked to his truck. I got to hold the rifle and also a couple of paper patched 45-110. I was captivated by the whole combo. The rifle just felt rig1ht, and the cartridge had a certain mis toque to it.

 

I will be loading only with BP. I find BP to have a far less punishing recoil than smokeless-less of a snap and more of a push. However, have not felt either in 45-110.

 

Are recoil pads allowed in the long range shoots? I’m thinking like a leather pad that I can throw over my shoulder.

 

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Joe,

Lumpy is spot on. I shoot a lot of BPTR. Regular matches have about 42 shots fired.  Championship matches average over 80 shots fired in one day.  Even with the recoil pad I’ll have bruising shooting my 45/70.  The majority of competitors are using 45/70.  There will be a couple using 40/65 or 40/82.  There are usually a couple using 45/90.  It’s pretty rare to see someone shooting the 45/110 rounds.  I shoot mid range matches which go out to 600 yards and my 45/70 from Shiloh is a tack driver.  One additional comment, if you intend to shoot long range competitions I will recommend that you cast your own heads. 
 

good luck

Gringo

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10 hours ago, Bisley Joe said:

Great!

 Thanks!

 

Does the semi-fancy wood and AAA finish matter beyond looks? It adds over $700 to the rifle and I would be fine with something like plain walnut.

 

What say you?

Yes, it's worth the smiles, vs cost!

Don't let your ego get the best of you here, the 110

Is brutal on recoil(BTDT). The brass is stupid expensive, when you can even find any. ;)

Match grade BPCR ammo loading, is the PHD in the reloading world.

I have a Shiloh 34" hvy bbl Hartford in .45-70, and Shiloh #1, 30" hvy bbl in .45-90. The #1 has a mercury recoil reducer in the stock.......

BTW, get in touch with Bill Goodman out of Bozeman, MT. He deals in Shiloh's and can shorten the wait time.

 

 

 

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I have a Shiloh #1 in 45-70.

It is a Heck of a Rifle.

Very accurite with a Shotgun Butt. When i was younger the recoil didn't bother me.

Now that i am getting older, i can feel it.

I am a big fan of the 45-70. Now thou i would probable go with a 40-60.

I had my Rifle chrino Frozen. 

Doing that the groups shrunk drematicly. 

I also had the reciever Frozen. If you don't know what that is.

The Barrel is frozen at 300 below zero. Then it is brot up to room temperatur.

Then it is put in a oven for 300 degrees above zero. Doing this takes all the stress out of the steel.

Really improved how the groups. 

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1 hour ago, Bailey Creek,5759 said:

I have a Shiloh #1 in 45-70.

It is a Heck of a Rifle.

Very accurite with a Shotgun Butt. When i was younger the recoil didn't bother me.

Now that i am getting older, i can feel it.

I am a big fan of the 45-70. Now thou i would probable go with a 40-60.

I had my Rifle chrino Frozen. 

Doing that the groups shrunk drematicly. 

I also had the reciever Frozen. If you don't know what that is.

The Barrel is frozen at 300 below zero. Then it is brot up to room temperatur.

Then it is put in a oven for 300 degrees above zero. Doing this takes all the stress out of the steel.

Really improved how the groups. 

Interesting.

where would one have a rifle frozen?

 

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2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Yes, it's worth the smiles, vs cost!

Don't let your ego get the best of you here, the 110

Is brutal on recoil(BTDT). The brass is stupid expensive, when you can even find any. ;)

Match grade BPCR ammo loading, is the PHD in the reloading world.

I have a Shiloh 34" hvy bbl Hartford in .45-70, and Shiloh #1, 30" hvy bbl in .45-90. The #1 has a mercury recoil reducer in the stock.......

BTW, get in touch with Bill Goodman out of Bozeman, MT. He deals in Shiloh's and can shorten the wait time.

 

 

 

I will look into that individual for the rifle.

I’ll also do some more thinking. 
We have long range matches out here so I’ll see about attending so as to get a better idea of the calibers.

I do appreciate all the advice!

 

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You've never said what you intend to shoot with the rifle! I've shot 60 rounds of 45-70 with a recoil pad for BPCR. My shoulder was hurting at the end of each match.

If you're thinking SASS long range side matches you can shoot those with an H&R 45-70 and save $2,500!

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

You've never said what you intend to shoot with the rifle! I've shot 60 rounds of 45-70 with a recoil pad for BPCR. My shoulder was hurting at the end of each match.

If you're thinking SASS long range side matches you can shoot those with an H&R 45-70 and save $2,500!

I would like to shoot SASS long range matches, yes.

 

The H&R is a nice little rifle, and for a 45-70 I'd likely get that.

But I still like the 110 and the Sharps.

I'll do more looking into this and work on getting to a match.

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22 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

I would like to shoot SASS long range matches, yes.

 

The H&R is a nice little rifle, and for a 45-70 I'd likely get that.

But I still like the 110 and the Sharps.

I'll do more looking into this and work on getting to a match.

SASS "long range" really isn't true long range.

In BPCR, long range starts at 800yds.

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I use the H&R Buffalo Classic 45-70 for SASS side match long range. After 40 or so full BP rounds with a 405 pill, my shoulder lets me know it wasn't having as much fun as me. Can't even imagine a 110 :lol:

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I have a Sharps that is 4 oz off max weight and find I have trouble holding it for freehand, also when I was young, a 100 rounds was nothing as there was a lot of muscle on my shoulder but today with an old mans shoulder I get some bruising.  I will tell you if my Sharps was a .45-110 I could not shoot it do to the bruising.  If you are only using in SASS you don't need a gun that kills from both ends.  For SASS I have went to a High Wall in .38-55.

 

If you plan on shooting the gun in your 70's or 80's I would recommend 30" hvy bbl, shotgun style butt plate with a pistol grip and double set triggers.  Get the best wood you can afford, 

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I looked for the H&R because it’d be nice to have the Buffalo classic one in the two calibers but damn if they are out of production!!

As far as long range, although SASS may be shorter ranges, I’d still like to be able to reach out as far as possible.

I think the recoil can be tamed with a good shoulder pad and a reducer in the stock. Those quicksliver things that dampen recoil.

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3 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

As has been said, SASS long range side matches are more like close range speed rifle. Most hits in the least time. Any black powder gun is tuff to deal with as a speed rifle.

That actually sounds like a fun challenge with a 45-110!!!

 

 

Maybe silly question:

but why is the military stock so much worse with recoil over the shotgun stock?

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14 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

That actually sounds like a fun challenge with a 45-110!!!

 

 

Maybe silly question:

but why is the military stock so much worse with recoil over the shotgun stock?

Shape, and small contact area.

The pistol grip stock is a great aid in controlling recoil torque.

Some of the club matches I have shot. I had to remove the recoil-reducer in the stock to make weight.

Remember that slip on recoil pads and shoulder pads add to the stocks LOP.

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16 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Shape, and small contact area.

The pistol grip stock is a great aid in controlling recoil torque.

Some of the club matches I have shot. I had to remove the recoil-reducer in the stock to make weight.

Remember that slip on recoil pads and shoulder pads add to the stocks LOP.

Makes sense.

Thanks!

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Lumpy Grits has givin you some great advise, unless your a big man and even if you are, that 110 will eventually wreck your neck and shoulder. I’m 5 ft 10 inches  weigh 180, not big by any standards and I have shot a Pedersoli in 45 -110 many times, ultra accurate but painfully brutal to shoot even with a shooters friend shooting pad, after a couple months of working up a good load for it I started having serious pain in my neck and shoulder along with bad headaches. I stopped shooting it and in a couple months was back to normal. 45-70 is my heavy rifle now but the 40- 65 is by far my favorite. You sound pretty decided on the 110, good luck to you, hope you fare well with it!

l

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I got one of these for my 3.5" turkey shotgun. It comes floppy but when exposed to the air it hardens. There is a pocket in the thin shirt to hold the recoil shield. The process is, put the shirt on, open the shield packet and put the shield in the pocket, then repeatedly should the gun like you would shooting it. The shield will form to you and the gun. I plan on trying it with my Sharps.

 

The thin shirt will be like a tee-shirt under your regular shirt.

 

https://www.evoshield.com/en-us/product/evoshield-men-s-protective-recoil-shoulder-guard-shooting-shirt-wb50200#colors=72523

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25 minutes ago, Silver Creek Jack said:

Lumpy Grits has givin you some great advise, unless your a big man and even if you are, that 110 will eventually wreck your neck and shoulder. I’m 5 ft 10 inches  weigh 180, not big by any standards and I have shot a Pedersoli in 45 -110 many times, ultra accurate but painfully brutal to shoot even with a shooters friend shooting pad, after a couple months of working up a good load for it I started having serious pain in my neck and shoulder along with bad headaches. I stopped shooting it and in a couple months was back to normal. 45-70 is my heavy rifle now but the 40- 65 is by far my favorite. You sound pretty decided on the 110, good luck to you, hope you fare well with it!

l

I hear you and lumpy.

I intend to visit a shoot and try one.

I am listening!

and thank you!

24 minutes ago, Cholla said:

I got one of these for my 3.5" turkey shotgun. It comes floppy but when exposed to the air it hardens. There is a pocket in the thin shirt to hold the recoil shield. The process is, put the shirt on, open the shield packet and put the shield in the pocket, then repeatedly should the gun like you would shooting it. The shield will form to you and the gun. I plan on trying it with my Sharps.

 

The thin shirt will be like a tee-shirt under your regular shirt.

 

https://www.evoshield.com/en-us/product/evoshield-men-s-protective-recoil-shoulder-guard-shooting-shirt-wb50200#colors=72523

Will look into that!

thanks!

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Regarding recoil pads adding length of pull..,

What about have the stock shortened let’s say an inch. Then have a removable section of 1 inch. This section can be used if needed when no recoil pad is available. But when it is, remove it and thus the LOP  remains the same.

 

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