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Plainsman question


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I enjoy shooting Plainsman side matches 2-3 time/year.  I use a Trapdoor Carbine. 
 

Every Plainsman match I’ve been to has 2 categories, modern and traditional. The difference being ejectors on rifle are considered modern. The Handi Rifle being the gun of choice for Modern. The ejector kick the brass out further than the bullet goes to target! 

 

per SASS handbook pg 29

THE PLAINSMAN
This event requires two .36 caliber or larger Frontiersman Category style percussion revolvers, shot Duelist style.
 - Must use a SASS legal single shot rifle firing a traditional blackpowder rifle or revolver caliber cartridge (e.g., not a .30-.30). The rifle may have spring actuated ejectors if they are standard for that rifle. .38 Special is legal.

the SASS handbook dies not list  a modern or traditional division. 


My question, would a trapdoor be modern or traditional? Seems I’ve had it called both ways. The ejector would likely make it modern, yet its a very old system. Just seems odd to call it modern. 
 

What sayeth the wire?

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Hoss,

 

The Trapdoor is Traditional or Eastern (without extractors), Western being with extractors or modern.

 

Tully

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One answer to the original question. Shooters who use a traditional rifle do not want to have to compete against Handi-Rifles. It is a wonder that Ruger Old Army's are not classed as modern for the same reason. JMHO. Castalia.

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Depends.  NO!!  Not the ones in the plastic package.  Depends on your specific Match Director.  An Ejector is an Ejector no matter the age of the design.  Rifles may have Spring Ejectors.  If the specific match director called it a certain way, there you are.

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27 minutes ago, Irish-Pat said:

Hey, Hoss, I can’t find the rules for Cody-Dixon rifles. Where are they listed?

Sent a pm

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12 minutes ago, Irish-Pat said:

Hey, Hoss, I can’t find the rules for Cody-Dixon rifles. Where are they listed?

 

Cody Dixon is not an official SASS category. Rules are club specific. 

 

Here are some rules that tend to be the same across all clubs

 

Rifle must be in a traditional Pre 1900 Rifle caliber. Minimum caliber is 30. No cartridge that is SASS main match legal may be used except 56-50.

Typical calibers used are 30-30, 30-40, 38-55, 40-65, 45-70, 56-50, and similar cartridges.

Some clubs allow gas checks

Most clubs have 4 categories. Single shot and Lever action / Black Powder and Smokeless. No ejectors allowed. Trapdoor rifles are legal.

Some clubs may allow the Savage model 99. Most do not.

Most clubs do not allow Handi-Rifles. The few that do put them in their own category.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Like Castalia, I  wonder why handi-rifles are not in their own category for Plainsman.

 

I have seen a Handi-Rifle without ejectors outrun misses when competing against more traditional single shots.

 

A shooter with a handi-rifle can get off two to 3 shots in the same time it takes a shooter shooting a Sharps or Trapdoor to fire one.

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4 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Cody Dixon is not an official SASS category. Rules are club specific. 

 

Here are some rules that tend to be the same across all clubs

 

Rifle must be in a traditional Pre 1900 Rifle caliber. Minimum caliber is 30. No cartridge that is SASS main match legal may be used except 56-50.

Typical calibers used are 30-30, 30-40, 38-55, 40-65, 45-70, 56-50, and similar cartridges.

Some clubs allow gas checks

Most clubs have 4 categories. Single shot and Lever action / Black Powder and Smokeless. No ejectors allowed. Trapdoor rifles are legal.

Some clubs may allow the Savage model 99. Most do not.

Most clubs do not allow Handi-Rifles. The few that do put them in their own category.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most in Texas go by the rules as written by the Texas Historical Shooting Society as they are the group that started it in Texas 

 

https://www.thss.org/rules/cody-dixon-rules/

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2 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Like Castalia, I  wonder why handi-rifles are not in their own category for Plainsman.

 

I have seen a Handi-Rifle without ejectors outrun misses when competing against more traditional single shots.

 

A shooter with a handi-rifle can get off two to 3 shots in the same time it takes a shooter shooting a Sharps or Trapdoor to fire one.

I tried using my rolling block for plainsman a few time, real heavy. 

Rafe 

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4 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Like Castalia, I  wonder why handi-rifles are not in their own category for Plainsman.

 

I have seen a Handi-Rifle without ejectors outrun misses when competing against more traditional single shots.

 

A shooter with a handi-rifle can get off two to 3 shots in the same time it takes a shooter shooting a Sharps or Trapdoor to fire one.

Handi Rifles are definitely the gamer gun in plainsman. Very quick rifles. Even without ejectors.  I like shooting the trapdoor. Sometimes I even shoot an 1880s 10 Guage with external hammers. My Pard Clueless Bob shoots a Maynard or a Burnside rifle, both of which are slow and require a percussion cap, but he gets all the style points, and everybody want to shoot them after the match. Nobody asks to shoot a Handi Rifle! 

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Just now, Hoss said:

Most in Texas go by the rules as written by the Texas Historical Shooting Society as they are the group that started it in Texas 

 

https://www.thss.org/rules/cody-dixon-rules/

 

Those are the rules I was given when I started shooting Cody Dixon.  

 

Now that I am Match Director for a couple of clubs I have deviated some to expand the number of shooters and level the playing field a little.

All the changes were made as a consensus amongst all the regular shooters at our Monthly matches. I have more fun at the monthly Cody Dixon match that almost any other. 

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54 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

I tried using my rolling block for plainsman a few time, real heavy. 

Rafe 

I found an original 50-45 rolling block Navy carbine. Nice short barrel. Its a cut down 50-70 case. A loaded round is only 1 1/4"

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I had the same question asked when I ran the Plainsman match at CAC a few years ago, after consulting with Palewolf, I went with traditional for the Trapdoor.

 

Ruger Old Armies were Modern guns unless their adjustable sights had been welded up... that is until the Modern category was eliminated. 

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3 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Cody Dixon is not an official SASS category. Rules are club specific. 

 

Here are some rules that tend to be the same across all clubs

 

Rifle must be in a traditional Pre 1900 Rifle caliber. Minimum caliber is 30. No cartridge that is SASS main match legal may be used except 56-50.

Typical calibers used are 30-30, 30-40, 38-55, 40-65, 45-70, 56-50, and similar cartridges.

Some clubs allow gas checks

Most clubs have 4 categories. Single shot and Lever action / Black Powder and Smokeless. No ejectors allowed. Trapdoor rifles are legal.

Some clubs may allow the Savage model 99. Most do not.

Most clubs do not allow Handi-Rifles. The few that do put them in their own category.

 

And per those rules, 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 should all be allowed in Cody Dixon.  They were introduced as a rifle caliber pre-1900 and are larger than .30.  And I did shoot CD-Lever for a season at Texican Rangers with a 44-40, but only at monthly matches.  Personally, though, I think that those CD rules should be amended to say that main-match-legal pistol calibers are excluded.  I rather think that was the intent, but it is not what (THSS's) rules say.

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3 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

 

And per those rules, 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 should all be allowed in Cody Dixon.  They were introduced as a rifle caliber pre-1900 and are larger than .30.  And I did shoot CD-Lever for a season at Texican Rangers with a 44-40, but only at monthly matches.  Personally, though, I think that those CD rules should be amended to say that main-match-legal pistol calibers are excluded.  I rather think that was the intent, but it is not what (THSS's) rules say.

I kinda thought 44-40 should be allowed. The reasoning was they take a large pistol primer. But you are correct, should have just said no main match legal caliber 

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Look again. I stated;

 

“no main match legal rifle cartridge allowed except 56-50”

 

 The problem with rounds like 44 WCF is that it is almost impossible to see hits at 100 plus yards. 

Edited by Sedalia Dave
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Hoss, I've been using the rule in the "Basic rules for the long range competitions" section, under the Buffalo Single Shot which states ejectors are prohibited, "EXCEPT FOR SPRINGFIELD TRAPDOOR RIFLES".

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I do not believe the modern and traditional sub categories in plainsman are in the official SASS regulations but have been adopted across the country by different match directors including at EOT and Winter Range.  Every one I have shot the trap doors have been in traditional. My browning blackpowder cartridge rifle in 45-70 has been ruled in both categories depending on the person running the match 

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5 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Look again. I stated;

 

“no main match legal rifle cartridge allowed except 56-50”

 

 The problem with rounds like 44 WCF is that it is almost impossible to see hits at 100 plus yards. 

 

Yes, you did state that.  But the THSS rules do not state it, and I think they should since their rules seem to be the standard.

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.357 Max would be a nice cartridge for plainsman if it were allowed, More power than the Mag, can run in .357's with a chamber reamer and your reloading components and dies are the same.  can be run in a Win 94 or a Handi-Rifle.

 

Edit: I haven't seen a plainsman match and I guess I don't know what it is since there are no match specific rules in the handbook, I think I was confusing it with Long Range...

Edited by El CupAJoe
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1 hour ago, El CupAJoe said:

.357 Max would be a nice cartridge for plainsman if it were allowed, More power than the Mag, can run in .357's with a chamber reamer and your reloading components and dies are the same.  can be run in a Win 94 or a Handi-Rifle.

 

Edit: I haven't seen a plainsman match and I guess I don't know what it is since there are no match specific rules in the handbook, I think I was confusing it with Long Range...

 

Look again. Plainsman rules are there. Unlike the main match, Plainsman still has rules reminiscent of SASS before the rule book had to cover every possible scenario. Plainsman is about having fun with firearms you don't get to shoot every day.

 

You really need to attend a Plainsman match to understand the subtle nuances. It would take way to long to type out here.

 

BTW 357 max would not be a good choice for Plainsman. Attend a match and you'll soon learn why.

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2 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Look again. Plainsman rules are there. Unlike the main match, Plainsman still has rules reminiscent of SASS before the rule book had to cover every possible scenario. Plainsman is about having fun with firearms you don't get to shoot every day.

 

You really need to attend a Plainsman match to understand the subtle nuances. It would take way to long to type out here.

 

BTW 357 max would not be a good choice for Plainsman. Attend a match and you'll soon learn why.

I guess all I see are the equipment requirements without a description of what the match is... is it a normal match just shot with single shot rifles?  are the targets further out?  do you still take 10 shots with the rifle?  I can imagine what most of the other side matches involve, I just don't understand what a plainsman match is...

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12 minutes ago, El CupAJoe said:

I guess all I see are the equipment requirements without a description of what the match is... is it a normal match just shot with single shot rifles?  are the targets further out?  do you still take 10 shots with the rifle?  I can imagine what most of the other side matches involve, I just don't understand what a plainsman match is...

Plainsman is typically 6 rifle rounds. Targets from 30-100 yds. Whatever the range has available. Most like the larger cartridges like 45-70 or 38-55 because they are easier to grab and manipulate. Plus you get the big BOOM!  

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20 minutes ago, El CupAJoe said:

I guess all I see are the equipment requirements without a description of what the match is... is it a normal match just shot with single shot rifles?  are the targets further out?  do you still take 10 shots with the rifle?  I can imagine what most of the other side matches involve, I just don't understand what a plainsman match is...

 

Like other side matches the format is up to the Match Director.  The venue has a lot to do with target placement. 

 

The format of Long Range side matches also varies a lot and is up to the Match Director.

 

BTW if you look you'll see that the format of a SASS main match is not really defined either. # of targets, round count, etc is not defined in the SHB.

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5 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Plainsman is typically 6 rifle rounds. Targets from 30-100 yds. Whatever the range has available. Most like the larger cartridges like 45-70 or 38-55 because they are easier to grab and manipulate. Plus you get the big BOOM!  

At a BP match a couple of years ago, we had a Plainsman on our posse.  Pistol and shotgun targets engaged same as stage instructions.  Rifle varied from 4-6 rounds, depending on the stage and available space for the distant targets that were much further out than regular rifle.  The shooter used a Handi-rifle in one of the smaller calibers, spent a fair bit of time manipulating the rounds, as Hoss says.

 

CS

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3 hours ago, Count Sandor, SASS #74075 said:

At a BP match a couple of years ago, we had a Plainsman on our posse.  Pistol and shotgun targets engaged same as stage instructions.  Rifle varied from 4-6 rounds, depending on the stage and available space for the distant targets that were much further out than regular rifle.  The shooter used a Handi-rifle in one of the smaller calibers, spent a fair bit of time manipulating the rounds, as Hoss says.

 

CS

Some places in Texas call that Cody Dixon and can be shot with a single shot or repeating rifle and it can be shot integrated into a regular Posse like you described. I have not see plainsman shot integrated with a posse before. But all that is really needed are different rifle targets much further out.

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5 minutes ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

Some places in Texas call that Cody Dixon and can be shot with a single shot or repeating rifle and it can be shot integrated into a regular Posse like you described. I have not see plainsman shot integrated with a posse before. But all that is really needed are different rifle targets much further out.

Cody Dixon is not Plainsman. Don’t have to shoot BP, or percussion revolvers. (Allthogh you could if you wanted too, and I certainly encourage everybody else to do so :D

only real difference in CD and main match is a set of targets further out that are shot with a rifle caliber like 45-70, 38-55, 30-30 etc. can shoot Lever action or Single Shot. Typically 6 rounds. Pistols & shotgun are same as everyone else. 

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14 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Cody Dixon is not Plainsman. Don’t have to shoot BP, or percussion revolvers. (Allthogh you could if you wanted too, and I certainly encourage everybody else to do so :D

only real difference in CD and main match is a set of targets further out that are shot with a rifle caliber like 45-70, 38-55, 30-30 etc. can shoot Lever action or Single Shot. Typically 6 rounds. Pistols & shotgun are same as everyone else. 

Absolutely correct, I was just trying (not very well) to state that it is shot integrated within a regular Posse and not as a separate side match like plainsman is normally done. 

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