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Cutthroat Cody

default position

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8 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Good to know.  

 

I had no idea that it was SOP for LEO’s to approach armed men, who they know plan to shoot at them, with their hands hanging loosely near their sidearms.  I think if I was a LEO approaching an aggressive armed man, like Matt did at the beginning of the show, I would like to have my weapon drawn.

 

I always thought if you found yourself in a fair fight your tactics suck.

 

I never knew LEO’s like to make it a fair fight. No wonder they get shot way to often. 

You missed my point Captain.  Calling LEO's idiots for approaching a given situation from a more neutral position is what I take umbrage to.  Nowhere did I say the LEO was approaching an armed or aggressive subject with a neutral posture nor did I say it was SOP as every situation is fluid.  

 

LEO's are trained to engage from both neutral and aggressive stances to be able to react efficiently as the situation dictates.  Many of the LEO shootings have occurred while contacting non-threatening subjects so they need to be prepared to react under any circumstance.

 

Reacting from a neutral position (SASS default) is a skill set some folks are discounting as useless because it seems like you aren't prepared.  My impression is that it takes more skill to react from a neutral position since you must be able to move large muscle groups and employ fine motor skills at the same time to make the move to a firing position efficiently.

 

Gunsmoke is a TV show and is a fantasy experience.  SASS is a game and is a fantasy experience.  The steel targets are not going to shoot back at you so it is possible to begin the stage in a neutral state.

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Shooter starts hiding in the shadows with Thompson in both hands pointing at the targets. Engage the 7 targets in any order but Mob boss must be last. 

 

 

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Oh great, now we have the Mobster category! lol

We have to have a "house" full-auto Tommy Gun then. 

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1 hour ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

You missed my point Captain.  Calling LEO's idiots for approaching a given situation from a more neutral position is what I take umbrage to.  Nowhere did I say the LEO was approaching an armed or aggressive subject with a neutral posture nor did I say it was SOP as every situation is fluid.  

 

LEO's are trained to engage from both neutral and aggressive stances to be able to react efficiently as the situation dictates.  Many of the LEO shootings have occurred while contacting non-threatening subjects so they need to be prepared to react under any circumstance.

 

Reacting from a neutral position (SASS default) is a skill set some folks are discounting as useless because it seems like you aren't prepared.  My impression is that it takes more skill to react from a neutral position since you must be able to move large muscle groups and employ fine motor skills at the same time to make the move to a firing position efficiently.

 

Gunsmoke is a TV show and is a fantasy experience.  SASS is a game and is a fantasy experience.  The steel targets are not going to shoot back at you so it is possible to begin the stage in a neutral state.

Come on Jim, you're going pretty far afield here.  Nobody came close to calling LEO's idiots.  Creeker called the SASS default starting position idiotic and you said that since that's the way Matt Dillon starts every Gunsmoke issue he was calling Matt an idiot.  That right there is a stretch.  To then take that and stretch it even farther and claim you're taking umbrage to LEO's being called idiots isn't even close to the reality of what was said in this thread.  Please cite a post from this thread where a LEO was called an idiot.  James Arness doesn't count, he was an actor. 

 

You defended the default by citing movies you had watched where they were basically in that position.  I responded by citing movies where they weren't in that position. 

 

Nobody discounted reacting from a neutral position either, nor was it discussed as a necessary skill set. 

 

Yes, it's certainly possible to start from a neutral position, but I would rather not for my own reasons which have nothing to do with targets shooting back at me and everything to do with rules being consistently applied without subjective interpretation of what is fully erect, where my eyes are looking or any other clearly irrelevant criteria. 

 

If you think SASS's default position is great because that's the way traffic stops are conducted you're certainly free to have that opinion though the connection between the two isn't clear to me.  If you think SASS default is great because every western you've ever seen had gunfights start that way then I suggest you may have missed quite a few good westerns. 

 

I think we've wondered pretty far from the OP's subject, so I'm going to leave it at that.  No hard feelings on my part, I just disagree with your position and the reasons you cited for it, respectfully.

 

 

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Maybe we should have the "default" position changed to both hands covering both eyes.  Peep eye!  Nobody can see anything, so everybody is equal.

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Yall ever go from the first page of a thread to the last page and think, "how in the world did we get here?" Yeah, thats me right now.

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16 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Yall ever go from the first page of a thread to the last page and think, "how in the world did we get here?" Yeah, thats me right now.

 

You need a DQ break..... maybe a Double Stuff Oreo Blizzard.

THEN..... put the empty cup under your pillow and maybe it will come to you in a dream..... :lol::D

 

..........Widder

 

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Since there was NO P given... and the T.O. started every shooter the same way... What's the problem?

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1 minute ago, McCandless said:

Since there was NO P given... and the T.O. started every shooter the same way... What's the problem?

Apparently, the TO doesnt know sass default position. I think thats the jist of it. That, and now I want ice cream.

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17 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

You need a DQ break..... maybe a Double Stuff Oreo Blizzard.

THEN..... put the empty cup under your pillow and maybe it will come to you in a dream..... :lol::D

 

..........Widder

 

Thanks for flinging that craving on me Widder. Im 25 miles from the nearest ice cream joint. Thats like letting an alcoholic smell your aftershave!

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Come on Jim, you're going pretty far afield here.  Nobody came close to calling LEO's idiots.  Creeker called the SASS default starting position idiotic and you said that since that's the way Matt Dillon starts every Gunsmoke issue he was calling Matt an idiot.  That right there is a stretch.  To then take that and stretch it even farther and claim you're taking umbrage to LEO's being called idiots isn't even close to the reality of what was said in this thread.  Please cite a post from this thread where a LEO was called an idiot.  James Arness doesn't count, he was an actor. 

 

You defended the default by citing movies you had watched where they were basically in that position.  I responded by citing movies where they weren't in that position. 

 

Nobody discounted reacting from a neutral position either, nor was it discussed as a necessary skill set. 

 

Yes, it's certainly possible to start from a neutral position, but I would rather not for my own reasons which have nothing to do with targets shooting back at me and everything to do with rules being consistently applied without subjective interpretation of what is fully erect, where my eyes are looking or any other clearly irrelevant criteria. 

 

If you think SASS's default position is great because that's the way traffic stops are conducted you're certainly free to have that opinion though the connection between the two isn't clear to me.  If you think SASS default is great because every western you've ever seen had gunfights start that way then I suggest you may have missed quite a few good westerns. 

 

I think we've wondered pretty far from the OP's subject, so I'm going to leave it at that.  No hard feelings on my part, I just disagree with your position and the reasons you cited for it, respectfully.

 

 

From your post Captain "but yes I would call a real life sheriff that did some of the things he did an idiot."

 

I did not say the default position was a GREAT! position.  I did give reasoning behind why it's not a standing up like an idiot position.

 

No hard feelings Captain.  You and I come from completely different worlds as far as real life gunfighting and fantasy gunfighting and I guess I shouldn't expect you to see things from my point of view given each others life experiences. 

 

You don't like the position, cool, you're entitled to your opinion.  I could take it or leave it as I don't see much difference between it and High Surrender or the like.  

 

Have a great day.

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11 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Thanks for flinging that craving on me Widder. Im 25 miles from the nearest ice cream joint. Thats like letting an alcoholic smell your aftershave!

 

It won't help, I just had a Strawberry shake and still don't know how we got here; not even sure what we were talking about. Wait, on second thought maybe it did help...

IMG_20190313_150142386-750x1000.thumb.jpg.d5365e6d4a592ca3da926a35c938147a.jpg

 

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20 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

It won't help, I just had a Strawberry shake and still don't know how we got here; not even sure what we were talking about. Wait, on second thought maybe it did help...

IMG_20190313_150142386-750x1000.thumb.jpg.d5365e6d4a592ca3da926a35c938147a.jpg

 

Dadgummit. That aint helpin!

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56 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

From your post Captain "but yes I would call a real life sheriff that did some of the things he did an idiot."

 

I did not say the default position was a GREAT! position.  I did give reasoning behind why it's not a standing up like an idiot position.

 

No hard feelings Captain.  You and I come from completely different worlds as far as real life gunfighting and fantasy gunfighting and I guess I shouldn't expect you to see things from my point of view given each others life experiences. 

 

You don't like the position, cool, you're entitled to your opinion.  I could take it or leave it as I don't see much difference between it and High Surrender or the like.  

 

Have a great day.

I see what you were referring to.  That was a hypothetical, but fair enough. I certainly didn't mean to offend you with that statement, though I have to say that I do think anyone who deliberately walks into the street to do a quick draw with his life on the line, when there were other options, ain't quite right in the head.

 

I don't mind high surrender, nor do I mind Texas surrender, hands on hat, holding stuff, all those are fine.  I really don't mind standing upright hands at sides as a starting position, I just don't like it as the default starting position.  

 

PS.  I have been involved in two armed confrontations over the last 30 years, both of which I 'won' (defined as they went to jail and I didn't) and I can assure you that in both cases my gun was in my hand(s) well before my opponents had any idea I was even around and I gave them absolutely no chance to 'win'.  They were both very 'unfair' confrontations. 

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

Apparently, the TO doesnt know sass default position. I think thats the jist of it. That, and now I want ice cream.

1)  Stage instructions stated to start at default;

2)  Shooter was standing with hands at sides with the butt of his palms touching the grips of his revolvers;

3)  As pointed out above, " - If no starting position is given, (or, I assume, if "Default" is the specified starting position)  the shooter shall stand upright with revolvers holstered, hands at the sides, and not touching any firearm.  (SASS default).";

4)  As TO I informed the shooter that he couldn't be touching his guns before I would start him;

5)  Shooter corrected stance by holding his hands away from his guns;

6)  Shooter was then started and shot the stage.

 

As the TO in question who "doesn't know the sass default position", perhaps you can explain your statement?

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13 minutes ago, Hollywood said:

1)  Stage instructions stated to start at default;

2)  Shooter was standing with hands at sides with the butt of his palms touching the grips of his revolvers;

3)  As pointed out above, " - If no starting position is given, (or, I assume, if "Default" is the specified starting position)  the shooter shall stand upright with revolvers holstered, hands at the sides, and not touching any firearm.  (SASS default).";

4)  As TO I informed the shooter that he couldn't be touching his guns before I would start him;

5)  Shooter corrected stance by holding his hands away from his guns;

6)  Shooter was then started and shot the stage.

 

As the TO in question who "doesn't know the sass default position", perhaps you can explain your statement?

Sure. I skipped after the first page, but the OP said his wrists may have touched his pistol. Did that story change somewhere?

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6 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Sure. I skipped after the first page, but the OP said his wrists may have touched his pistol. Did that story change somewhere?

Hell...it's the third page...all threads change by the third page.

 

And now I have Ice Cream cravings...thanks...

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11 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Hell...it's the third page...all threads change by the third page.

 

And now I have Ice Cream cravings...thanks...

It's widder and tyrels fault. Of course, thats usually the case.:ph34r:

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10 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Sure. I skipped after the first page, but the OP said his wrists may have touched his pistol. Did that story change somewhere?

O.K., I get it.  Shooter was actually not really aware that he was actually touching his guns at all.

 

Also, the way the rule is written I do not even assume that the "and not touching any firearm" only applies to the "hands".   My personal interpretation is that the shooter can't be touching any firearm, and "touch" does not only apply to the hands or fingers.

 

From Merriam-Webster touch is  "to bring a bodily part into contact with especially so as to perceive through the tactile sense." 

 

Once again, my personal interpretation is that any touching of the firearm(s) (even with wrist or arm) might give a shooter an advantage over another by allowing them to know exactly where their gun butts are, for a faster draw.  Especially true for a shooter who wishes to start while looking at the first target, as opposed to one who starts while looking down at their gun.

 

Perhaps my assumptions and personal interpretations are incorrect.  In this case it would not have mattered as the shooter was actually touching his firearms with the base, fatty part of the hand, above the wrist.

 

Perhaps PWB can chime in again and let us know whether the intent of the rule was only applicable to "the hand" or if it was any touching by the hand, wrist or arm.

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1 minute ago, Hollywood said:

O.K., I get it.  Shooter was actually not really aware that he was actually touching his guns at all.

 

Also, the way the rule is written I do not even assume that the "and not touching any firearm" only applies to the "hands".   My personal interpretation is that the shooter can't be touching any firearm, and "touch" does not only apply to the hands or fingers.

 

From Merriam-Webster touch is  "to bring a bodily part into contact with especially so as to perceive through the tactile sense." 

 

Once again, my personal interpretation is that any touching of the firearm(s) (even with wrist or arm) might give a shooter an advantage over another by allowing them to know exactly where their gun butts are, for a faster draw.  Especially true for a shooter who wishes to start while looking at the first target, as opposed to one who starts while looking down at their gun.

 

Perhaps my assumptions and personal interpretations are incorrect.  In this case it would not have mattered as the shooter was actually touching his firearms with the base, fatty part of the hand, above the wrist.

 

Perhaps PWB can chime in again and let us know whether the intent of the rule was only applicable to "the hand" or if it was any touching by the hand, wrist or arm.

I think I can find it. One sec....

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
14 minutes ago, Hollywood said:

O.K., I get it.  Shooter was actually not really aware that he was actually touching his guns at all.

 

Also, the way the rule is written I do not even assume that the "and not touching any firearm" only applies to the "hands".   My personal interpretation is that the shooter can't be touching any firearm, and "touch" does not only apply to the hands or fingers.

 

From Merriam-Webster touch is  "to bring a bodily part into contact with especially so as to perceive through the tactile sense." 

 

Once again, my personal interpretation is that any touching of the firearm(s) (even with wrist or arm) might give a shooter an advantage over another by allowing them to know exactly where their gun butts are, for a faster draw.  Especially true for a shooter who wishes to start while looking at the first target, as opposed to one who starts while looking down at their gun.

 

Perhaps my assumptions and personal interpretations are incorrect.  In this case it would not have mattered as the shooter was actually touching his firearms with the base, fatty part of the hand, above the wrist.

 

Perhaps PWB can chime in again and let us know whether the intent of the rule was only applicable to "the hand" or if it was any touching by the hand, wrist or arm.

 

 

  YUP! and this is  one more example . :blink: :FlagAm:  This can not be real and must be a winter joke.

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9 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Sorry in advance pwb for quoting you from social media.

Screenshot_20190313-160036_Facebook.jpg

While I don't agree with the assertion that "the rule states "HANDS". " based on the way the sentence in the rule book is structured, I do agree that we all must enforce the rules consistently, and accepting PWB's assertion will ensure that. 

 

I stand edumicated.

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I'm wondering where the hell this game is going if we are going to call folks for having the hair on their arms touching their gun(s).

 

I mean...come on...

 

oy!

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12 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm wondering where the hell this game is going if we are going to call folks for having the hair on their arms touching their gun(s).

 

I mean...come on...

 

oy!

 

We might have to initiate a 'Hairless' category..... :D

Kinda rules me out.

 

Even Borgs have hair!  ;)

 

..........Widder

 

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17 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

We might have to initiate a 'Hairless' category..... :D

Kinda rules me out.

 

Even Borgs have hair!  ;)

 

..........Widder

 

 

Sign me up! :D

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6 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Sign me up! :D

 

Ain't never seen a Hairless Bull.....  :D

 

..........Widder

 

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