this is not a WTC but still wondering. . .

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

The officers were taking a break from getting the range ready for the monthly match (yea, being an officer automatically makes us the major part of the grounds crew + a few other dedicated members but back to the question in hand):

 

how do you really tell when the shot is over the berm?  

 

Now I know if a bird falls out of the sky  or a cow eating grass on top of the bern drops like a stone at the same time the round goes off that can be a sign but with all the foliage and vegetation at our range that tends to hide shots into the berm, short of putting folks on the tops to listen for the passing of bullets what is it we look for?

 

 . . . Cause there is always going to be that cowboy that argues he didn't shoot over it, that he's gun barrel was below the berm when the round went off.

 

In the spirit of not getting my a$$ chewed on this post I am serious about the question but did phrase it in humorous terms.  Also I've been told my humor is more of an acquired taste rather than 'mainstream.'

 

cheyenne

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

TO usually sees it pretty clearly.  But if he missed seeing it, or is very unsure, we ask rest of posse.  If posse members agree it was "over the berm", we call it.     Usually someone saw a "edger hit" that caused a ricochet (no penalty) or a hit way up on berm (no penalty) , which explains why there should be no call.  Target stands getting hit can cause it if there is an upward facing angle on the stand.  

 

(When we go official for state or higher matches, then only the spotters contribute to the TO's decision)

 

In case of doubt, the benefit of it goes to ....... who?....... the shooter.

 

Remind the TO if they are not looking over the shoulder of the shooter, they may not be a in good position to either stop shooter or see  an unsafe direction of discharge or loss of muzzle control.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Chuckwagon McTaggart]

The only time I've seen it called, the Cowboy had the integrity to call it on himself.  The TO wasn't certain enough to make the call.  

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I've not seen it happen. However, once, as TO, someone called it on the shooter. I said no, I saw the impact on the berm.

 

I remember once when Hubby was TO, he grabbed the shooter's gun after seeing the muzzle pointed over the berm after firing. He gave shooter a MDQ per range rules.

 

It is really hard to see a bullet on the move. I think you have to go by where the muzzle is pointed when fired or where the bullet hits.

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

I think this call is more on the spotters then the TO. When I'm running the timer I'm concentrating and watching the firearms for squibs and/or firearm problems, shooter safety during gun transitions, as well as counting fired rounds, not watching downrange for hits, misses, or shooting over the berm. Unless I could see a blatant over the berm infraction happening while looking at the firearm muzzle I'll defer to the spotters.

[Sgt. Saywut]

5 minutes ago, High Spade Mikey Wilson said:

I think this call is more on the spotters then the TO. When I'm running the timer I'm concentrating and watching the firearms for squibs and/or firearm problems, shooter safety during gun transitions, as well as counting fired rounds, not watching downrange for hits, misses, or shooting over the berm. Unless I could see a blatant over the berm infraction happening while looking at the firearm muzzle I'll defer to the spotters.

 

OT, but how can one possibly be ready to stop a fast shooter in the case of a squib, the way they zip through the cycling of their firearms?   That was a recurring thought while I watched some YouTube videos of top CAS people. 

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

I've seen several over the berm, never seen anyone try to argue their way out of it. Actually the TO can/could/should be in the best position to help the shooter and see where the muzzle is pointed, as well as round over the berm or edge hits. Spotters are usually gonna be spread out a little more. A good TO can do several things at the same time if they are positioned correctly "behind and off to the strong side of the shooter." From this position you can watch the gun! , identify where the gun is pointing, what target, correct target engagement, anticipate the shooter’s next move, stop shooter from unsafe act and watch their hands. Good Luck

  RO I 4-5

3. Watch the Gun. Many shooters acting as the Timer Operator rarely know what or where to actually look. Often, you will see them counting misses or looking around at the spotters. If you want to really know how to make more exact calls and anticipate the shooter’s next move, watch the gun! By actually looking at the gun, you can identify where the gun is pointing and usually what target the shooter is engaging. This is critical if you have to make a call pertaining to correct target engagement. By watching the gun, you can also identify squib loads, warn the shooter if he or she is getting close to the 170 safety limit, or stop the shooter if there is a problem with the gun itself.
4. Stay Within Arm’s Length. In order to stop an unsafe act, the Chief Range Officer must be within arm’s length of the shooter. In fact, the appropriate position for the Chief Range Officer is behind and off to the strong side of the shooter. In other words, if the shooter is right handed, the Chief Range Officer should be within arm’s length of the shooter, to the rear and right of centerline.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

56 minutes ago, Sgt. Saywut said:

 

OT, but how can one possibly be ready to stop a fast shooter in the case of a squib, the way they zip through the cycling of their firearms?   That was a recurring thought while I watched some YouTube videos of top CAS people. 

 

You can't with the fast shooters.  We have some very fast cowboys and there is no way to stop them even if you planned to do it vs. reacting to a squib you didn't know was going to happen--especially if they are breaking the space-time continuum (last part is meant to be a joke for those that have had a humor-ectomy)

 

cheyenne

[Shooting Bull]

1 hour ago, High Spade Mikey Wilson said:

I think this call is more on the spotters then the TO. When I'm running the timer I'm concentrating and watching the firearms for squibs and/or firearm problems, shooter safety during gun transitions, as well as counting fired rounds, not watching downrange for hits, misses, or shooting over the berm. Unless I could see a blatant over the berm infraction happening while looking at the firearm muzzle I'll defer to the spotters.

 

That's the reason I believe the TO is in the best position to determine a round over the berm, you're constantly watching the firearms.  You're not only watching them for the things you mentioned, but where they're pointed so you can possibly help them avoid a procedural, 170 rule violations, round over the berm, etc. But since the TO can't see everything, hopefully the spotters can chime in if necessary,

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

garrison joe and jethro are spot on!!  IF the TO is in the CORRECT position,,, they CAN see all!!!!

 

I've never had someone argue that call,,,  and yes I've had to call it more than a few times....

 

 

Too many TOs act like more of a spotter than TO.. just saying....

 

I actually stoop down for shorter shooters,,,  for tall shooters I try but can only get so far up on my tip toes,,,,

[Cole Younger Requlator]

Please remember- this "over the berm" call is not a blanket SASS Rule--it is a Range Rule.. Shooter does not automatically get a MDQ unless the Range has that rule.

[Cole Younger Requlator]

14. A round over the berm is always a bad idea but is worse on some ranges than others. Local match regulations establish the appropriate penalty, up to and including a Match Disqualification. 15. 

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

4 hours ago, Cole Younger Requlator said:

Please remember- this "over the berm" call is not a blanket SASS Rule--it is a Range Rule.. Shooter does not automatically get a MDQ unless the Range has that rule.

 

I understand that

 

my question was more on the lines of how do you determine if it went  over the berm--wasn't concerned with the penalty, if any, just how can you tell

 

cheyenne

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

by the angle of the barrel when the firearm discharged..

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

8 hours ago, Cole Younger Requlator said:

14. A round over the berm is always a bad idea but is worse on some ranges than others. Local match regulations establish the appropriate penalty, up to and including a Match Disqualification. 15. 

 

My first (since starting CAS in 1991) MDQ was a year ago for "hunting ducks out of season & without a non-resident license"...

The call was protested (I maintained that there was a squirrel up in that tree when my '87 inadvertently discharged over the back berm), but the call was upheld.

[Calico Mary]

5 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

My first (since starting CAS in 1991) MDQ was a year ago for "hunting ducks out of season & without a non-resident license"...

The call was protested (I maintained that there was a squirrel up in that tree when my '87 inadvertently discharged over the back berm), but the call was upheld.

 

hate ta tell ya PWB, but the only thing squirrely wuz tha nut holdin' tha shotgun....

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

We have had ranges closed for rounds over the berm.

The antis, here in Canada, salivate for rounds over the berm, hence some ranges have very strict rules about even racking the action with the muzzle pointed over the berm.

I have seen MDQs awarded for rounds over the berm and SDQs for racking the action with the muzzle pointed over the berm, after a couple of warnings.

[Ramblin Gambler]

2 Ps and a miss

 

Cheyenne, you aint gotta worry about a round over the berm.  You don't put enough powder in your bullets to make it that far.  Now, BlackPowderBurn might need to worry about shooting through the berm. 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

4 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

2 Ps and a miss

 

Cheyenne, you aint gotta worry about a round over the berm.  You don't put enough powder in your bullets to make it that far.  Now, BlackPowderBurn might need to worry about shooting through the berm. 

Hard to catch a 125 gr boolit at 825 fps