Rifle Ammo on Shotgun Loop

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

I'm making a new shotgun belt for a fellow cowboy shooter. He asked if it would be possible to put a loop for a rifle/pistol round on the outside of a shotgun loop. Below is the section from the Shooter's Handbook that covers shell loops. It say nothing about loops on the outside of shotgun loops. I know of one local shooter who uses this arrangement.

 

The shotgun belt I am making will be used by a shooter who attends bigger shoots. Neither he, or I, want to make him something that is going to get him DQed at a big match.

 

Any of you "black badges" are welcome to offer your opinions.

 

 

From the Shooter's Handbook

Ammunition required for loading/reloading during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooter‘s person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shotshell belt loop, pouch, holster, or pocket or be safely staged as required by stage instructions. Leather belt slide ammo loops are acceptable; however, shotgun shell slides may not be worn over shotgun loops on an ammo belt. Shotgun loops must be in a single row. Rifle and revolver ammunition may not be carried in a shotshell loop. No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose, cleavage, or any other bodily orifice.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

For years I have seen shotshell slides with a row of cartridge loops in front. Personally I hate the gamey look, but I do believe they are legal.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Funny look'n maybe. But don't think it's 'illegal' for SASS.

PWB will be along to provide the final answer.

OLG

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

REF: Post #19

🔫

Edited December 2, 2016 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...

 

Any of you "black badges" are welcome to offer your opinions.

 

 

 

What do EoT winners have to do with the inquiry??

 

Or do you mean "black PIN" RO Instructors??

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

Yes, PaleWolf, I meant "Black Pin" RO Instructors.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to attend an EOT event. I was not aware that winners were awarded a black badge.

 

Thank you for your help.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

Yes its legal.

I use a bandoler with shotgun and rifle loops all on one .

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

It would be perfectly legal to put a slide containing say 10 rounds on a shotgun belt. This slide could then be positioned anywhere on the belt including over empty shotgun loops. I have two slides, one for pistol belt, other for shotgun belt. I also have 10 pistol/rifle loops at top of my shotgun belt sewn in place. For a stage with no shotgun targets and 10 reloads on either pistol or rifle, I can move my empty shotgun belt (but has pistol/rifle loads) as high as it will go on my body.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Gold Canyon Kid #43974

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...

I can move my empty shotgun belt (but has pistol/rifle loads) as high as it will go on my body.

Really??

 

Ammo belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button.

SHB p. 11

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Really??

 

Ammo belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button.

SHB p. 11

Has that always been in the rules or did it used to say just shotgun belts? I have clearly missed that. How does that relate to belts worn over the shoulder?

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

deleted

Edited November 29, 2016 by Gold Canyon Kid #43974

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Has that always been in the rules or did it used to say just shotgun belts? I have clearly missed that. How does that relate to belts worn over the shoulder?

Over the shoulder - makes it a bandoleer rather than a belt. Rules treat the two very differently.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Rye Miles #13621]

I have a shotgun belt that takes 10 doubles and 4 singles plus 8 pistol loops. I believe it's a Evil Roy shotgun belt. I've never been told this was illegal!

[Diamond S Doug]

My shotgun belt has 10 rifle/pistol reloads on a strip mounted on the outside of the shotgun loops. Absolutely legal and has been used at both WR and EOT.

[Hellbender]

I had two loops on the right side of my canvas shotgun belt sewn together in the middle around a .38 special cartridge case. That formed a small, perfectly sized loop to keep a cartridge and also two additional small spaces on each side of that loop where I can keep two more cartridges. I had the same thing done to the next two loops. I would think this is SASS legal because the spaces between the sewn loops never were shotgun loops to begin with and the two additional cartridge spaces formed on both sides of the sewn area, although they used to be shotgun shell loops, are now compressed down to the size of a .38 cartridge and therefore are no longer shotgun loops. Is this shotgun belt modification SASS legal?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I had two loops on the right side of my canvas shotgun belt sewn together in the middle around a .38 special cartridge case. That formed a small, perfectly sized loop to keep a cartridge and also two additional small spaces on each side of that loop where I can keep two more cartridges. I had the same thing done to the next two loops. I would think this is SASS legal because the spaces between the sewn loops never were shotgun loops to begin with and the two additional cartridge spaces formed on both sides of the sewn area, although they used to be shotgun shell loops, are now compressed down to the size of a .38 cartridge and therefore are no longer shotgun loops. Is this shotgun belt modification SASS legal?

YES

[Hellbender]

YES

Great, thanks for the confirmation!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Stand by for a ruling on the OP question by the ROC. Edited December 1, 2016 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

ROC RULING re Sewing R/P AMMO LOOPS ON SG LOOPS:

NOT "TRADITIONAL DESIGN"

NOT ON THE LIST OF APPROVED "METHODS OF CARRY" (SHB p.11)

= NOT LEGAL.

Applicable rule = P+misses for "Use of illegally acquired ammo"

This will be codified in the next edit of the SHB.

Edited December 2, 2016 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

[Hellbender]

Oh well.......but wait, I was talking about sewing two shotgun loops together, not sewing a P/R loop onto a shotgun loop so it looks like this ruling does not apply to my situation, only to the original posted question, right?

Edited December 3, 2016 by Hellbender

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Oh well.......but wait, I was talking about sewing two shotgun loops together, not sewing a P/R loop onto a shotgun loop so it looks like this ruling does not apply to my situation, only to the original posted question, right?

YES...your proposal is not the same as sewing R/P loops on the front of SG ammo loops.

You are simply modifying shotgun loops into R/P loops as I understand it.

Edited December 3, 2016 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

[Hellbender]

YES...your proposal is not the same as sewing R/P loops on the front of SG ammo loopslide.

You are simply modifying shotgun loops into R/P loops as I understand it.

 

Yep, that's all I'm doing. Legal after all....Yahoo!

[Ventura Slim, SASS #35690]

So, does this mean that a belt to hold shotgun rounds cannot also hold cartridges for rifle/pistol?

[StirrupTrouble]

So, does this mean that a belt to hold shotgun rounds cannot also hold cartridges for rifle/pistol?

No. The ruling refers to the loops not the belt. Having rifle rounds on the belt is ok, but attaching the rifle loops to the outside of a shotgun loop is not ok

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

My shotgun belt has 10 rifle/pistol reloads on a strip mounted on the outside of the shotgun loops. Absolutely legal and has been used at both WR and EOT.

If they are mounted similar to this:

it is NOT LEGAL

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

My shotgun belt has 10 rifle/pistol reloads on a strip mounted on the outside of the shotgun loops. Absolutely legal and has been used at both WR and EOT.

Just because no one noticed it at EOT or WR, doesn't make it legal. Show us a photo.

[Diamond S Doug]

Just because no one noticed it at EOT or WR, doesn't make it legal. Show us a photo.

First off I am not complaining and my belt has been modified to conform. I was merely passing on info that I thought was correct. It was noticed and discussed prior to purchase.

 

The photo that Palewolf showed is a good representation, except that it was a 10 reload strip covering 5 shotgun loops. Before I bought my belt in 2010 I asked at my RO1 class and was told it was legal and I will not name names. They referenced the statement in SHB P11 listed below.

 

Leather belt slide ammo loops are acceptable; however, shotgun shell slides may not be worn over shotgun loops on an ammo belt. Shotgun loops must be in a single row. Rifle and revolver ammunition may not be carried in a shotshell loop.

 

My shotgun belt has undergone significant surgery to allow it to conform to the clarification. Before it held 10 pairs of SG and 10 reloads, now it holds 5 pairs and 2 reload slides not over loops.

 

Besides, after 6 1/2 years it's probably time for a new belt anyway....now you know what to get me for Christmas....

[Blackey Cole]

As I understand it you can still position a r/p ammo slide over the loops on a sh belt

[Warden Callaway]

I have to keep reminding myself this is a fantasy sport not a reenactment. To raise a dust over a trivial variation that provides no competitive advantage is really picking the fly specks out of the pepper when the most competitive guns would be unrecognizable to a gunsmith and leather totally impractical for the working cowboy of the old west era.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I have to keep reminding myself this is a fantasy sport not a reenactment. To raise a dust over a trivial variation that provides no competitive advantage is really picking the fly specks out of the pepper when the most competitive guns would be unrecognizable to a gunsmith and leather totally impractical for the working cowboy of the old west era.

The question regarding equipment was asked and taken to the ROC for the answer.

Regardless of any individual opinion to the contrary, it is a function of that Committee to make such rulings based on the parameters codified in the SHB.

BTW - Failure to recognize the competitive advantage of having rifle reload ammo placed out in front & away from the shooter's body (as it would be using the method in question) doesn't negate that advantage.

[Barry Sloe]

As I understand it you can still position a r/p ammo slide over the loops on a sh belt

If, by positioning the slide over the SG loops, it causes the slide to be "wedged" out from your body I believe it would be illegal.

Reading the SHB I find that it is illegal to have a SG slide over SG loops. Is there any reason to assume that a pistol/rifle slide over SG loops would be legal?

 

BS

Edited December 10, 2016 by Barry Sloe

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

If, by positioning the slide over the SG loops, it causes the slide to be "wedged" out from your body I believe it would be illegal.

Reading the SHB I find that it is illegal to have a SG slide over SG loops. Is there any reason to assume that a pistol/rifle slide over SG loops would be legal?

BS

The ROC also discussed that and other related practices.

Currently working on a comprehensive clarification on those and other recent rulings to be included in the next edit of the SHB.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I you PWB and know you don't make decisions in a vacuum. So do not take this personally or a statement of intent to not follow the rules.

 

I do believe this rule is carrying things too far as I feel about the rule not allowing "tie-down" bandoleers.

 

Both look good, anyone can cheaply take advantage of them, they could have been an early design for some enterprising cowboy.

 

Not to mention, they look much more likely to be period appropriate than one of the following, from 1875. BTW, is this SASS legal?

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Do you mean the rule against sewing R/P loops on to SG loops?

 

...and there is no prohibition re using suspenders to hold up ammo or gunbelts.

(Although a navel check might be in order for the gentleman in the ad)

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Do you mean the rule against sewing R/P loops on to SG loops?

 

...and there is no prohibition re using suspenders to hold up ammo or gunbelts.

(Although a navel check might be in order for the gentleman in the ad)

I was thinking about the rotating belt part of the design.