Wild bunch shotgun

[Bad Hand]

Before you ask, yes I've read the rule book. My question is, may you use a Winchester Model 25 (non-takedown Model 12) in wild bunch matches?

[Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388]

No

[Bad Hand]

So I can use a model 12, but not the same shotgun because it's marked Model 25. Yet you allow the 93/97s a gun that never existed?

[Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388]

Yep

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

No model 25's. Them's the rules.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Cowboy Junky]

I wonder why they felt the need to change the model number just because it was a takedown? They didn't do that for the 94 rifle or the mod 97 shotgun........is that the only diff?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I wonder why they felt the need to change the model number just because it was a takedown? They didn't do that for the 94 rifle or the mod 97 shotgun........is that the only diff?

Model 25 - Shorter mag tube. No takedown on the 25. Plain barrels only (no ribs). Plainer wood. Almost as if they are making a catalog-store model.

 

"Economy model" - probably did not want to ruin the sales of the Model 12 by having a variant with same model number.

 

As history can now tell, not everything Winchester did as a gun company was a great idea.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Let 'em shoot the thing. Having to load the last two or so off the body will soon have 'em looking for an M12 or a good 97.

 

Now the 87 -- that's the one they shoot let in. Holds 6 easy and tons of fun wild bunching with that one, I know I've done it and intend to do it some more. Around these parts we will even let 870s in. Model 25? Sure why not.

 

The real question is why we started out and still stay with loading six in the shotgun. JMB designed the 97 mag to hold 5 not 6 so that is what stages should be written for and we would not have to change or chop the mag spring to compete.

[G W Wade]

Let 'em shoot the thing. Having to load the last two or so off the body will soon have 'em looking for an M12 or a good 97.

 

Now the 87 -- that's the one they shoot let in. Holds 6 easy and tons of fun wild bunching with that one, I know I've done it and intend to do it some more. Around these parts we will even let 870s in. Model 25? Sure why not.

 

The real question is why we started out and still stay with loading six in the shotgun. JMB designed the 97 mag to hold 5 not 6 so that is what stages should be written for and we would not have to change or chop the mag spring to compete.

 

Not meaning to fan the fire. But after putting 6 shells in the 97, we put 5 rounds in the 1911 that holds 7 Opps GW

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

 

Not meaning to fan the fire. But after putting 6 shells in the 97, we put 5 rounds in the 1911 that holds 7 Opps GW

 

My 97's won't take 6, only 5.

 

The only reason to load 5 in a 1911 is if you also allow revolvers, such as an M1917 to keep the playing field level. This was actually quite common in Wild Bunch before SASS came up with official rules that severely limited how the game is played. As the rules now exist, loading 5 in a 1911 is silly.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

...As the rules now exist, loading 5 in a 1911 is silly.

Well, I think you're silly.

[Bad Hand]

Thank you for the timely response to my question.

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

I like the SASS Wild Bunch forum😀

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I really like the Wild Bunch forum. And the game.

 

Come on in, the water's fine!

 

Good luck, GJ

[Awful Close]

Winchester came out with the 25 to try to offer something in the 870 Remington price range. It didn't work out that well and they only made them for 3 years.

[J. Frank Norfleet]

The real question is why we started out and still stay with loading six in the shotgun. JMB designed the 97 mag to hold 5 not 6 so that is what stages should be written for and we would not have to change or chop the mag spring to compete.

Short answer: the first '97's had a shorter chamber and took shorter shells therefore in the beginning they held 6 rounds. When shotgun shells were lengthened, Winchester didn't bother to add a .25" to the magazine so it would still hold six.

 

 

Not meaning to fan the fire. But after putting 6 shells in the 97, we put 5 rounds in the 1911 that holds 7 Opps GW

 

The great fear is that Cowboy Shooters who also shoot Wild Bunch can't mentally deal with 7 rounds. They might get confused and do something unsafe. Now don't scream at me, I'm just repeating what I have been told several times by the Wild Bunch Rules Committee when I have questioned the logic of limiting the magazines to 5 rounds. All those discussions are on the Wild Bunch wire.

JFN

[Red Cent]

How about a solid frame Model 12

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Well, I think you're silly.

 

Ah, my secret is out...

 

I am one of the most silly people that you will ever meet.

 

Silly, silly, silly, silly, silly.

 

I mean, I don't put milk in my cereal. Nor to I put butter or syrup on my pancakes.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

How about a solid frame Model 12

 

Some Mod 25s were built using Mod 12 marked barrels. Doesn't make it a solid frame Model 12. Has been asked and answered a couple years ago on the Wild Bunch forum.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Rex M Rugers #6621]

Short answer: the first '97's had a shorter chamber and took shorter shells therefore in the beginning they held 6 rounds. When shotgun shells were lengthened, Winchester didn't bother to add a .25" to the magazine so it would still hold six.

 

 

The great fear is that Cowboy Shooters who also shoot Wild Bunch can't mentally deal with 7 rounds. They might get confused and do something unsafe. Now don't scream at me, I'm just repeating what I have been told several times by the Wild Bunch Rules Committee when I have questioned the logic of limiting the magazines to 5 rounds. All those discussions are on the Wild Bunch wire.

JFN

Forgive me for taking this a bit OT from Bad Hand's original intent , but the 5 rnd vs 7 rnd in the 1911 being too confusing sounds like BS to me. The same people could also be shooting some IDPA , USPSA , or 3-Gun matches , with 10 rnd limits or no limits at all. Besides , if you always run to slide-lock why would it matter how many rounds? Reasoning just sounds lame to me , but there are no WB matches in reasonable distance to where I live , so it is just a curiousity to me.

I am glad there is WB for those that shoot it , no matter the rules. Rex

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

J. Frank, not to dispute your knowledge but all the literature I have ever read in the past 55 or so years says JMB designed the 93 and the 97 to hold 5 in the mag not 6 no matter the shell length then and now. 5 was considered plenty sufficient for even the most dire of situations. Be that as it may, most stock originals and clones only hold 5 so why oh why not write the stages for 5 sg shells. Why the insistence on writing them for 6, makes no sense and I cannot understand why it has been that way from the start. I mean no doubles are allowed so there is no mandate to have the shell count an even number

[Red Cent]

Nuts, I thought the solid frame M12 was legal. You only have to load three from the belt

 

Yeah, the gun will usually start "discussions" especially with the M12 purists ( gun snobs). The gun is a half breed using the M25 receiver and barrel but it runs like a M12, feels like my other M12s, and is too light. My reloads are good but it would not be my choice for a day of clays.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Let 'em shoot the thing. Having to load the last two or so off the body will soon have 'em looking for an M12 or a good 97.

 

Now the 87 -- that's the one they shoot let in. Holds 6 easy and tons of fun wild bunching with that one, I know I've done it and intend to do it some more. Around these parts we will even let 870s in. Model 25? Sure why not.

 

The real question is why we started out and still stay with loading six in the shotgun. JMB designed the 97 mag to hold 5 not 6 so that is what stages should be written for and we would not have to change or chop the mag spring to compete.

I used my 87 once and loved. I like it even better for wild bunch than sass because I get to run it full speed like it was meant to

[Bullett Sass 19707]

The reason for five in the 1911 was to have Wild Bunch as a category of cowboy action shooting. Then someone realized this would not work and many cowboy shooters unhappy. Bullett 19707

[Boggus Deal #64218]

J. Frank, not to dispute your knowledge but all the literature I have ever read in the past 55 or so years says JMB designed the 93 and the 97 to hold 5 in the mag not 6 no matter the shell length then and now. 5 was considered plenty sufficient for even the most dire of situations. Be that as it may, most stock originals and clones only hold 5 so why oh why not write the stages for 5 sg shells. Why the insistence on writing them for 6, makes no sense and I cannot understand why it has been that way from the start. I mean no doubles are allowed so there is no mandate to have the shell count an even number

Not all WB stage writers write them for 6 rounds of shotgun. For example,the NM state match this year has several more than 6 and several less than 6. It should be very fun!

[J. Frank Norfleet]

J. Frank, not to dispute your knowledge but all the literature I have ever read in the past 55 or so years says JMB designed the 93 and the 97 to hold 5 in the mag not 6 no matter the shell length then and now. 5 was considered plenty sufficient for even the most dire of situations. Be that as it may, most stock originals and clones only hold 5 so why oh why not write the stages for 5 sg shells. Why the insistence on writing them for 6, makes no sense and I cannot understand why it has been that way from the start. I mean no doubles are allowed so there is no mandate to have the shell count an even number

Lone Dog, I am always skeptical of anything in print. Just because it is in a gun magazine doesn't make it true. I am just putting two and two together so I too could be wrong. Many of the early '97s had short chambers before Winchester transitioned from 2 5/8" shells to 2 3/4" shells. I used to buy 2 5/8" shells and load 2 of them and 4 of the 2 3/4" to get 6 in my '97. So, I find it hard to believe that JMB designed the magazines of the '93 and '97 to hold five when they were first manufactured with a 2 9/16" chamber and six of the 2 5/8" shells could be easily loaded in the magazine.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

That's what I do -- load one or two of the short BandP shells and four or five featherlites in the pumps, some just need the one some need two. Funny thing is that my newest, the touted CB IAC two digit earliest get it now as only 400 will be built yeah right ha ha fooled me needs two of the shorties. Aerostar Outdoors sometimes runs the BandP shorties with free shipping and I will order a few cases. Really great shells