ROC Clarifications

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

These have been posted over on the TG wire for over a week. There is a note that these clarifications are effective immediately. I'm surprised no one has posted them on the wire so here they are:

 

CLARIFICATIONS FROM the ROC:

1) Definition of “Designer Jeans” (Outlawed item) - “Designer Jeans” refers to those modern jeans that have slogans or logos embroidered, silk screened and such, saying things like “PINK” or “BABY”. (Jeans with fancy or flashy adornments are acceptable)

2) Welding the firing pin in the bolt of a rifle so as to cause a “slam-fire” situation when levering the action (without the need to manipulate the trigger or hammer) is an ILLEGAL MODIFICATION subject to DISQUALIFICATION PENALTIES. REF: SHB p.4

3) Definition of “short sleeve shirt” for men’s clothing:

A shirt with sleeves that do NOT extend to the wrist.

Note: Rolling up a long sleeve shirt is acceptable, but fastening a rolled up shirt sleeve in place is the same as short sleeve; either of which are Outlawed/Prohibitedand subject to DQ penalties.

4) Regarding the CRO/TO’s command of “CEASE FIRE” or “STOP”, and a failure of the shooter to comply with this command, the language will be changed to read “…..the shooter WILL receive a MDQ ……”. Should the voting item be passed the shooter WILL receive a SDQ for not complying with the CRO/TO “cease fire” or “stop command”.

The Range Command of “Cease Fire” or “Stop” as given by the CRO/TO must be followed by the shooter, as it may have serious safety consequences.

5) The point at which the “failure to adhere to loading/unloading procedure” SDQ applies is as follows: “Once control of the firearm(s) is relinquished, be it in a rack on the stage or at the shooter’s gun cart. (i.e. leaves the shooter’s hands)”

6) The only ammunition you can use on the stage is ammunition you initially bring to the line – you can’t run to your cart for ammunition or even to get another firearm. In other words, you can’t leave the "firing line" (as defined in the RO1 "Glossary of Terms") once you start the stage, and until all firearms have been verified as clear.

7) The action of a CRO/TO saving a long gun from falling over, still results in a penalty for the shooter. Basically if the CRO/TO had not been present to save the shooter from a penalty such as this, and the long gun would have fallen over regardless, then the penalty would still apply. The CRO/TO was just there to save the firearm from getting dirt on it!

Note: This is the only way to apply a penalty such as this, as some TOs may not be able to save the rifle from falling, and it would not be fair for those shooters who receive the penalty purely because of the action / inaction of their particular TO.

8) Revolvers (loaded or empty) that fall to the ground while holstered (e.g. gun belt buckle breaks) is a NO CALL, provided they remain holstered. The SHB and RO Manuals will be revised to read: “A dropped unloaded firearm on the firing line (from the loading table to the unloading table) results in the shooter’s disqualification from the stage. A dropped loaded firearm results in a match disqualification. A shooter may not pick up a dropped firearm. The Range Officer will recover the firearm, examine it, clear it, and return it to the shooter. This does NOT apply to holstered revolvers that remain “in leather” in the event of an equipment failure (e.g. broken belt buckle) causing the gun/ammo belt to fall. Shooters may safely recover a fallen gun/ammo belt and continue finishing the stage without penalty. SHB p.25/RO1 p.18”

9) All rounds (live or empty) from the firearm in question MUST be cleared before the next gun of the stage is fired (or before leaving the shooter's hands if it's the last gun of the stage). This applies to all types of long guns. The language of the rule as written, "...of the gun in which it was loaded..." gives the clarification regarding a rifle round falling into the shotgun, which would be a NO CALL. In a different situation, if a shotgun hull comes out of a 97 but falls back in the port as the shotgun is put down and then not cleared before then next firearm is cleared, it IS still a MSV(this includes empty rifle case falling off hat into open rifle action after being set down).

Not bringing enough ammo to the line is NOT a “P” (just misses for un-fired rounds). The “P” in this case would only apply to ammo (like firearms) when not correctly staged on the line (e.g. on/in a prop), and not corrected by the shooter on the clock. The definitions in the SHB and RO Manuals will be revised to clarify.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Thank You for posting Larsen.

 

#8 answers the question I posted recently concerning a dropped SG belt.

 

And the LAST paragraph you listed also answers an inquiry I recently had concerning the 'P' for not having enough ammo.

 

 

..........Widder

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

With respect I will never agree with a no call on pistols if still in holsters when dropped.!!!!

[Spades Hanlin SASS#66204]

 

Thanx Larsen.

 

 

Spades H.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Lotta good info here passed on....

Thanks Larsen

 

Rance

Thinkin' we learned sumthin' again today

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Do I understand #5 to mean a dropped gun anywhere, any time after the first stage is DQ? Makes sense, just had not heard it was a ROC item.

 

CR

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

With respect I will never agree with a no call on pistols if still in holsters when dropped.!!!!

 

That is a NO CALL situation.

These items are no longer up for debate or subject to any kind of a "vote" or opinion poll on the Wire.

They have already gone through that process among the WB/ROC members.

 

 

Do I understand #5 to mean a dropped gun anywhere, any time after the first stage is DQ? Makes sense, just had not heard it was a ROC item.

 

CR

 

NO.

Please read the item in context.

That one refers to bypassing the ULT; and at which point the penalty is applied.

It does NOT pertain to "dropped firearms".

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

 

 

NO.

Please read the item in context.

That one refers to bypassing the ULT; and at which point the penalty is applied.

It does NOT pertain to "dropped firearms".

 

 

Thanks. Sometimes I read really fast

CR

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Additional Q&A re: item #s 6 & 10:

 

What is the penalty for leaving the line during a stage before clearing all firearms?

 

If a shooter forgets to bring enough ammo to the line, once the stage starts s/he will get a 5-second penalty for each unfired round as required by the stage instructions.

Once the stage starts (first round downrange), leaving the firing line before all firearms have been cleared (with or without those firearms) will be a SDQ.

Can the shooter load the revolvers 'on the clock' from loading strip/block?

Answer: NO...the revolvers may be loaded "on the clock" only if the ammo was brought to the line "in an approved manner".

Loading strips/blocks are NOT on the approved list for carrying ammo for loading/reloading during the stage engagement.

REF: SHB p.11

If the shooter loads/reloads a firearm using ammo carried to the line in an UNapproved manner, the "use of illegally acquired ammunition" penalties apply:

A Procedural, plus misses for every round so loaded & fired.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

With respect I will never agree with a no call on pistols if still in holsters when dropped.!!!!

So does that mean as an RO you will penalize the shooter no matter the rule?

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

What about a round falling from your hat and landing backwards in the open port of your Marlin 94 as you turn to move to the next place to shoot your pistols ? Two spotters saw the round drop into the gun ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

What about a round falling from your hat and landing backwards in the open port of your Marlin 94 as you turn to move to the next place to shoot your pistols ? Two spotters saw the round drop into the gun ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

Read the last line in #9.

 

The firearm MUST BE CLEAR.

 

end of discussion.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

 

9) All rounds (live or empty) from the firearm in question MUST be cleared before the next gun of the stage is fired (or before leaving the shooter's hands if it's the last gun of the stage). This applies to all types of long guns. The language of the rule as written, "...of the gun in which it was loaded..." gives the clarification regarding a rifle round falling into the shotgun, which would be a NO CALL. In a different situation, if a shotgun hull comes out of a 97 but falls back in the port as the shotgun is put down and then not cleared before then next firearm is cleared, it IS still a MSV(this includes empty rifle case falling off hat into open rifle action after being set down).

 

What about a round falling from your hat and landing backwards in the open port of your Marlin 94 as you turn to move to the next place to shoot your pistols ? Two spotters saw the round drop into the gun ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Then I guess I should restage my rifle so you can`t see it`s port ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Then I guess I should restage my rifle so you can`t see it`s port ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

Most folks I know do that for rifle and shotgun

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

So does that mean as an RO you will penalize the shooter no matter the rule?

Of course not...what I'm saying is I 'DON'T Agree with the rule..dropped is dropped, full stop !

[Most Wanted]

Of course not...what I'm saying is I 'DON'T Agree with the rule..dropped is dropped, full stop !

I understand your concern but I don't see this as a dropped firearm. There was no carelessness involved in this situation. I see this as equipment failure and as with most other equipment failures if we can fix the problem on the line safely then no problem. If we were to call this a dropped gun then we also have to call a dropped gun if there was a prop failure that caused a gun to hit the ground. To me that don't seem right.

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

I understand your concern but I don't see this as a dropped firearm. There was no carelessness involved in this situation. I see this as equipment failure and as with most other equipment failures if we can fix the problem on the line safely then no problem. If we were to call this a dropped gun then we also have to call a dropped gun if there was a prop failure that caused a gun to hit the ground. To me that don't seem right.

To me that is a different situation 'a prop failure is just that .. with no penalty. A holster rig is the shooters responsibility regardless of why/ how it falls..IMHO

Respectfully 'Mohawk

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Just for clarification, I agree with the rule about guns in leather.

 

But I wish to point out that concerning safety, that an empty rifle cartridge pointing out of the open action of a shotgun will never go off.

 

But some of our rules have very little to do with actual safety issues.

 

 

On a separate item:

Remember to vote on picking up a dropped round!!

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

5) The point at which the “failure to adhere to loading/unloading procedure” SDQ applies is as follows: “Once control of the firearm(s) is relinquished, be it in a rack on the stage or at the shooter’s gun cart. (i.e. leaves the shooter’s hands)”

if carrying a rifle and shotgun to cart,,,, the penalty kicks in when the first firearm is placed in the cart/rack? or both,

I had to ask, because you know it would come up at some point.

[Most Wanted]

Well I would say (and I'm nobody) that as soon as one gun is released that gun did not go through the proper unloading procedure so to me the penalty would apply just like if only one pistol had brass in it at the next loading table . Good question and I will also wait to see what the answer is.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Of course not...what I'm saying is I 'DON'T Agree with the rule..dropped is dropped, full stop !

 

 

To me that is a different situation 'a prop failure is just that .. with no penalty. A holster rig is the shooters responsibility regardless of why/ how it falls..IMHO

Respectfully 'Mohawk

 

OK...we got that...you don't agree with the clarification.

Whether you agree or not, that is current policy (and has been for a number of years).

Didn't we have a PM conversation on this same issue?

Please note the reply to your first objection in post #7

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

5) The point at which the “failure to adhere to loading/unloading procedure” SDQ applies is as follows: “Once control of the firearm(s) is relinquished, be it in a rack on the stage or at the shooter’s gun cart. (i.e. leaves the shooter’s hands)”

if carrying a rifle and shotgun to cart,,,, the penalty kicks in when the first firearm is placed in the cart/rack? or both,

I had to ask, because you know it would come up at some point.

 

 

We added the (s) to that statement because most shooters carry both long guns to their cart at the same time.

Once one or both "leaves the shooter's hands", the penalty kicks in.

This clarification was made due to the insistence that a point at which the penalty applies be determined.

[Ramblin Gambler]

#6 makes me sad. I was looking forward to the next time I forgot shotgun shells and got to make a run back to the cart.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

All good stuff......thanks Larsen and PW Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Waimea]

This is important stuff that needs to be read by everyone.

 

BTT

 

 

Waimea

 

[Traven]

Regarding:

 

"The action of a CRO/TO saving a long gun from falling over, still results in a penalty for the

shooter. Basically if the CRO/TO had not been present to save the shooter from a penalty

such as this, and the long gun would have fallen over regardless, then the penalty would still

apply. The CRO/TO was just there to save the firearm from getting dirt on it!"

This places the CRO/TO is a bit of a bind. Presumably long guns falling is a safety issue, or it would not be a safety penalty. As a CRO/TO, I want to rectify any safety issue. If I see a long gun in danger of falling, I want to stop it. If I do, I have to then resolve, would it have fallen if I had done nothing? That puts me in a postion of just letting the gun fall and not trying to make it safe or having an argument with a shooter who will be sure it was not going to fall and I was being over cautious. Do you see the problem there? My other approach is to save the gun from falling and then apologise for being over cautious and issue no penalty, which works but seems to be something yet others will object to.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Black Jack Traven