Buckshot Frank Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 First off, I hope that this topic isn't taboo. I love SASS and help run a local club, but out of necessity, we are brainstorming on what else can be done. Participation at our club is dwindling for a few reasons. The biggest is club saturation in our area (6 clubs within an 1 1/2 hour drive) and we share a weekend with a couple of them. Our location is a hindrance, since the other clubs in the area are much closer to the populated areas. Our regulars consists of locals and the die hards that shoot at all of the clubs. We put on a fun match (everyone that we have polled has stated that they enjoy shooting our matches), so I don't think that we could really be doing anything differently that would draw more people. A couple of years ago, we put on a Cops/Military vs. Cowboys match which was wildly successful. Everyone had a great time. I run into non-CAS people at the range all the time asking when we are going to do that again. I think that the draw is that people like shooting the CAS match, but can do so with equipment that they already own (thus avoiding the $3,000 cost of entry barrier to SASS). Sure they can just shoot 3-gun, but let's face it, the biggest difference between CAS and 3-gun isn't the equipment; it's the people. CAS is a more friendly, fun environment than USPSA. So here is the idea. Have a match that uses SASS rules as the framework. Have different divisions based on the time period of the equipment being used (i.e. SASS division, Wild Bunch division, World War division, Cold War division, Open division). Clothing/costuming follows division. Everyone shoots the same match following the same rules (possible exception for shotgun loading for more modern divs). What do you think? Sound fun? Stupid idea? Would it drive off the regulars? Just trying to think outside the box here. We have a great range to use and great targets; just need more people to shoot them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudgeBagodonuts Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I like the idea. One consideration may be that if you break the divisions further by age brackets, you may end up with brackets of only one shooter. If you don't break down the divisions by age, you'll have some of the elders upset that they have to compete against younger shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Steele Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I am afraid to see what the Open division wears! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I wish people wouldn't throw around bad information such as "$3000.00" to shoot SASS. I see used double barrel shotguns for about $200, a Rossi '92 for $500, and Uberti Cattleman revolvers for $400 (check any of the on line gun sales sites. That adds up to about $1500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brimstone Bill Willson Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I would like to try a AZSA match one day, but their clubs are few and far between. I would think a prohibition era category using Wild Bunch rules would be easy to set up. http://www.zootshooters.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Go for it! Advertise it with all of the details that vary from CAS so folks will know what to expect. Let us know how it works out. Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugs Bonney SASS # 10171 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Try a Zombie shoot! Go to the Goddard web site for a look at how they set up categories. It's like Cowboy action without the costumes and using guns you already own. It has been Hugely successful for them and in fact outdraws their Cowboy shoots by about three times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 I wish people wouldn't throw around bad information such as "$3000.00" to shoot SASS. I see used double barrel shotguns for about $200, a Rossi '92 for $500, and Uberti Cattleman revolvers for $400 (check any of the on line gun sales sites. That adds up to about $1500. The $3,000 isn't set in stone, but the average cost for all equipment needed to get started is probably pretty close when you add in leather, a shot shell belt, gun cart, costuming, etc. Compared to getting started in USPSA Action Pistol (about $600 if starting with nothing), it is an undeniable barrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Why not just add an "OPEN" or "Modern" category to your cowboys shoots. Just make sure you don't loose your roots. Keep it all lead ammo. Make sure the TOs are familiar with modern firearms. (Check the Wild Bunch rule book for clearing semi-auto handguns) Many clubs successfully incorporate a "Pike" category into a monthly SASS match. I see no reason why same thing couldn't apply to more modern firearms. Loading two maximum on the shotgun can be applied to semi-autos also but it would slow them down. The goal should be to ease the shooters into Cowboy Action Shooting. And have fun at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 The $3,000 isn't set in stone, but the average cost for all equipment needed to get started is probably pretty close when you add in leather, a shot shell belt, gun cart, costuming, etc. Compared to getting started in USPSA Action Pistol (about $600 if starting with nothing), it is an undeniable barrier. Starter clothing shouldn't cost more than $200, I made my first leather from a Tandy kit, carried my shotgun shells in my vest pocket. Took a $15 goodwill golf cart and two pieces of scrap wood and made it into a gun cart. All shooting sports can be expensive, after your $600 pistol, how about your leather, running shoes, high speed shooting glasses, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 What would "Cold War" stuff look like? I have something in mind, but surplus Minuteman I and II rocket motors are being used for satellite launchings, and I doubt we could find room enough for a range. (Probably have to work something out on the Left Coast, and with folks on a Pacific island near Kwajalene! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Nelson Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 What would "Cold War" stuff look like? Probably M14s, M16s, AK-47s, AK-74s. But I like your ideas better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 .22 rimfire matches also are popular in some places. Many combinations; CAS .22 matches, silhouettes, or just plinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I wish people wouldn't throw around bad information such as "$3000.00" to shoot SASS. I see used double barrel shotguns for about $200, a Rossi '92 for $500, and Uberti Cattleman revolvers for $400 (check any of the on line gun sales sites. That adds up to about $1500. Of the thousands of people shooting sass on a regular basis, how many are running the $1500 gear versus the $3000+? One of the things people are always saying on here to new people is to go to a match and try before you buy. Great advice, but all the gear people try is in the upper range rather than this bottom range, and rightly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 What would "Cold War" stuff look like? I have something in mind, but surplus Minuteman I and II rocket motors are being used for satellite launchings, and I doubt we could find room enough for a range. (Probably have to work something out on the Left Coast, and with folks on a Pacific island near Kwajalene! Probably right. I was just trying to bracket various time periods. Could probably just get away with SASS, Wild Bunch, World Wars, and Modern divisions. The other issue is whether or not you limit it to pistol caliber carbines. Doing so would allow everyone shooting the same steel targets. Allowing rifle rounds would open it up to the most popular rifle in America (AR-15), but would necessitate setting up cardboard targets for the rifle shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Of the thousands of people shooting sass on a regular basis, how many are running the $1500 gear versus the $3000+? One of the things people are always saying on here to new people is to go to a match and try before you buy. Great advice, but all the gear people try is in the upper range rather than this bottom range, and rightly so. I admit I probably have much more than $3000.00 invested, my point is, it took me several years to "move up" to those firearms and equipment. How many USPSA shooters are still shooting their $600 pistols? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 If you're going to allow rifle caliber rounds, you will need to switch to paper targets for anything up close. An AK47 will do a number on a regular cowboy target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I wish people wouldn't throw around bad information such as "$3000.00" to shoot SASS. I see used double barrel shotguns for about $200, a Rossi '92 for $500, and Uberti Cattleman revolvers for $400 (check any of the on line gun sales sites. That adds up to about $1500. Even at $3,000.00 it's cheaper than golf, boating, skiing, snow mobiling, model railroading, restoring cars, owning horses, flying, and a host of other things that never get done milking your wallet. Shoot, Newt, I have a lot more than that in quality books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Whiskers Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Not necessarily a new concept, but at our monthly shoots (1st weekend and 4th Saturday of the month) the 1st Saturday it's Cowboy only, 1st Sunday is a combined posse Cowboy/Wild Bunch shoot. If you want to shoot Cowboy fine, if you want to shoot WB that's fine too. We shoot the same scenario as a Cowboy as WB shoots just less pistol and SG rounds. Each are scored as they would be in a separate shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Even at $3,000.00 it's cheaper than golf, boating, skiing, snow mobiling, model railroading, restoring cars, owning horses, flying, and a host of other things that never get done milking your wallet. Shoot, Newt, I have a lot more than that in quality books. The comparison holds no weight when it comes to how much money leaves my wallet. $3,000 compared to golfing or flying is the same $3,000 compared to collecting used paper towel rolls. It's a legitimate barrier to new shooters looking to enter the sport. Buying worn out leather for cheap, a 92 that jacks out live rounds (because they all do), a set of cattlemen's that use a tractor's leaf spring for a hammer spring and is probably worn out, and an old SxS spanish 12Ga that may or (likey) may not be safe to shoot wtih smokeless is no way to get started in the sport if you plan on playing moe than once or twice. A good sed of Vaqueros are $1200, a box stock 73 rifle is $1200, a good 97 or sXs is 600-800. Thats $3200 for guns that will serve a new shooter well for some time instead of just causing frustration. that $3,000 number isn't a random number nor is it false information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pot SASS#55659 Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Good idea. Believe a fun shoot could be worked out. And the $3000 figure is probably a little low but it is the one I'd like my wife to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bristol Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I started on a shoe string. With some help from members I was able to start for about $2300. I did get a great used short stroked 73 in .357 but the rest was either given to me or was what I could afford. The pistols were ones I could afford and the sxs was used but was already slicked up and ready. But that was a couple years ago. I have since priced some of the stuff I had and figured with just what I bought, not including what was given, it would now cost me $2500. So if everything had to be bought I would say that $3000 would be a good figure for starting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 I admit I probably have much more than $3000.00 invested, my point is, it took me several years to "move up" to those firearms and equipment. How many USPSA shooters are still shooting their $600 pistols? A new Glock is $450. You can find police trade-ins for $350. Add a $15 connector, competition sights, and a couple of extra magazines and you've got under $600 invested. A belt, kydex competition holster and mag pouches will run you another $100. Again, this is starting from scratch. Most people considering competition shooting already have a pistol that can be used. Heck, you can get started in USPSA Steel Challenge with nothing more than a rimfire pistol or rifle. Who doesn't have one of those in their safe? The problem for CAS is that even gun enthusiast with a safe full of guns probably won't have anything suitable for CAS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 The more that I have been hashing out this idea with people, the more that I think that this could be a heck of a lot of fun. I've refined the divisions to: Cowboy- all SASS equipment and categories apply Turn of the Century- pre-1914 semi-auto handgun, SASS rifle, SASS shotgun or others from the time period (Model 10, Model 12, etc) World Wars- pre-1945 pistol and shotgun, pre-1945 pistol caliber carbine Zoot Shooter- same equipment as World Wars, but different costuming requirements (gangster) Modern- any pistol, any shotgun, pistol caliber carbine, no costuming requirement Time Traveler- an adaptation of any of the time period categories where the shooter can replace one period gun with a modern one Other than the modern division, the idea is true to SASS (using period-correct equipment and costuming in a shooting competition). The basic SASS match is still there. Everyone shoots the same match. It just expands on the idea allowing other shooting enthusiasts to join in the fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Great idea. There are many potential shooters that might not have pistol-caliber carbines. There are many .30-30s sitting in home safes that do not get shoot anymore. A clever handlander can load lead bullets to around 1200 fps that could be sold at the match to anyone wishing to use their .30-30s. The rifle is the toughest gun to cover if you had a modern category where shooters could use any shotgun (load with two max) and a revolver or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaukValley Sam, SASS # 66557 Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 The comparison holds no weight when it comes to how much money leaves my wallet. $3,000 compared to golfing or flying is the same $3,000 compared to collecting used paper towel rolls. It's a legitimate barrier to new shooters looking to enter the sport. Buying worn out leather for cheap, a 92 that jacks out live rounds (because they all do), a set of cattlemen's that use a tractor's leaf spring for a hammer spring and is probably worn out, and an old SxS spanish 12Ga that may or (likey) may not be safe to shoot wtih smokeless is no way to get started in the sport if you plan on playing moe than once or twice. A good sed of Vaqueros are $1200, a box stock 73 rifle is $1200, a good 97 or sXs is 600-800. Thats $3200 for guns that will serve a new shooter well for some time instead of just causing frustration. that $3,000 number isn't a random number nor is it false information. When asked about cost I tell folks cowboy action shooting is no more expensive than playing golf. Also, used golf clubs have little value down the line while well cared for firearms will probably be worth at least what you paid for them if not even more. My greatest fear is that when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantry Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 The more that I have been hashing out this idea with people, the more that I think that this could be a heck of a lot of fun. I've refined the divisions to: Cowboy- all SASS equipment and categories apply Turn of the Century- pre-1914 semi-auto handgun, SASS rifle, SASS shotgun or others from the time period (Model 10, Model 12, etc) World Wars- pre-1945 pistol and shotgun, pre-1945 pistol caliber carbine Zoot Shooter- same equipment as World Wars, but different costuming requirements (gangster) Modern- any pistol, any shotgun, pistol caliber carbine, no costuming requirement Time Traveler- an adaptation of any of the time period categories where the shooter can replace one period gun with a modern one Other than the modern division, the idea is true to SASS (using period-correct equipment and costuming in a shooting competition). The basic SASS match is still there. Everyone shoots the same match. It just expands on the idea allowing other shooting enthusiasts to join in the fun. I'd add period correct revolver to those catergories I think you have a decent idea, my guess is that you will drive away some of the more dedicated cowboy shooters but bring in more non-cowboy shooters. The biggest problem will be the pistol caliber carbine for WWII/Zoot Suit. Presuming you exclude 30 carbine, full auto and keep the 1200 fps rule for rifles, there aren't very many options out there. If you use rifle caliber rated steel (1/2" AR500 can handle 30-06 and 338 Magnum), you can expand the guns allowed, but will have to move those targets back. The other option would be the use of paper targets, but depending on your range set up, having to go cold for the entire range if you don't have separate berms/firing bays will be a major pain. Another thing is setting maximum velocities for handgun and rifle, for example factory ammo for the Tokerev or Mauser Broomhandle is moving at better the 1400 FPS and a lot of the surplus ammo may be armor piercing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted April 28, 2015 Author Share Posted April 28, 2015 I'd add period correct revolver to those catergories I think you have a decent idea, my guess is that you will drive away some of the more dedicated cowboy shooters but bring in more non-cowboy shooters. The biggest problem will be the pistol caliber carbine for WWII/Zoot Suit. Presuming you exclude 30 carbine, full auto and keep the 1200 fps rule for rifles, there aren't very many options out there. If you use rifle caliber rated steel (1/2" AR500 can handle 30-06 and 338 Magnum), you can expand the guns allowed, but will have to move those targets back. The other option would be the use of paper targets, but depending on your range set up, having to go cold for the entire range if you don't have separate berms/firing bays will be a major pain. Another thing is setting maximum velocities for handgun and rifle, for example factory ammo for the Tokerev or Mauser Broomhandle is moving at better the 1400 FPS and a lot of the surplus ammo may be armor piercing. Good ideas. I didn't mean to exclude period correct revolvers- just an oversight. I also forgot to include rimfire in all the divisions; rimfire could be used in any division, but it will be scored as a separate category (i.e. each division would have a rimfire category). We do have AR 500 steel (with the exception of our plate rack and shotgun targets), but I don't want to have to set the targets back too far thus altering what a cowboy match is. The maximum velocity could work; we could set up a crono and test rifle ammo prior to the shoot, or just make the rule and hope that people abide by it. We did the paper target thing for the Cops vs Cowboys match. While it worked fine, I want to keep everyone shooting the same match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Not only no but Hell no! If you are going to shoot under the umbrella of SASS then do it by the rules. No semi autos no bolt actions etc. If I were a member I would quickly find the nearest club that still used SASS guidelines and join them immediately You would not see me again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HossMunny Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I like the idea of any other shooting matches. I like anything that promotes the 2nd. I do however agree that another club could be easily started with new rules, requirments, etc. Keep the CAS pure. If the club wanted to have a modern event, all for it, just do it on a different day than your CAS. Good thinking outside the box! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted April 28, 2015 Author Share Posted April 28, 2015 Not only no but Hell no! If you are going to shoot under the umbrella of SASS then do it by the rules. No semi autos no bolt actions etc. If I were a member I would quickly find the nearest club that still used SASS guidelines and join them immediately You would not see me again. Noz- I respect your opinion and suspect that others could feel the same way. The main reason for posting this here was to get feedback (positive and negative). I certainly don't want to run off any of our regulars; we won't make the change if this would be the case. Unfortunately, the trend in our area is that the older regulars are retiring from shooting faster than new shooters are replacing them. If the trend continues, we won't have enough shooters to support the cost of running a match. We are pretty much at the break-even point (just covering range fees and insurance) right now, and our range just hinted at doubling our fees in the future. We need more shooters to remain viable, and the pool of active SASS shooters is shrinking. Removing the equipment barrier (by adding other categories) is the only way that I can see to draw more shooters. I'm not trying to start a revolution to destroy SASS. I'm just trying to figure out a way to allow people to participate in this great sport with the equipment that they already have. Doing so without ruining the CAS match is the tricky part. Remember, SASS was started when some IPSC shooters got together and said "Wouldn't it be fun if we tried this?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Hi again, THIS IS FROM ALLIE MO, THE SHOOTER, NOT THE ADMINISTRATOR, SO I WILL NOT DELETE DESENTING POSTS, UNLESS THEY ARE RUDE TO OTHERS (NOT ME).. Although I love SASS the way it is. I am right handed and have many issues with my right hand (shortened thumb from removal of basal joint, arthritis, and pain in the wrist around where four wrist bones were removed). I wish that shooting with a two handed grip, cocking with my left thumb would solve those issues. However, due to the worsening arthritis pain in my left thumb, I've already cut back to 1-2 SASS matches a month. Maybe I can ask the doctors about removing the left thumb joint... In the mean time, my 1911 causes me no pain to shoot. The moral of my story is, "don't condemn someone for trying to increase participation in our sport or any shooting sport." They may be increasing participation by accommodation. Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR. WHO Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 "Time Traveler" I wholeheartedly approve ! ! ! Lets see . . . . I have a Fez for a hat . . . . can add some beadwork to my U-Boat commander jacket . . . . matching leather pants . . . . for a pistol would use a .45acp Shansei Broomhandle [w/o stock] . . . . shotgun would be a Model 5 auto . . . . rifle would be the current version of the BFG9000 [don't have to worry about lead projectiles there] . . . . have a guncart ready made in the TARDIS . . . . . . . . . Seriously though, this seems VERY well thought out. But, just to reflect on other comments, you would not want it to detract from the main goals of SASS/CAS shooting to the point where the new matches overshadow the Cowboy matches. Will be interesting to see where this goes. By the way, Rose, Amy and Donna, are all wanting to attend. Doc ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted April 29, 2015 Author Share Posted April 29, 2015 Still refining this idea. I'm currently leaning towards doing away with the modern division, since it seems to stray too far away from the spirit of the match. Would still keep the "time traveler" division as a way to ease people into the sport by relaxing the equipment requirement (for one gun at least). Everyone would still be portraying a certain time period though. It would basically be a Cowboy/Wild Bunch (minus the big bore requirement)/Zoot Shooter match rolled into one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted May 4, 2015 Author Share Posted May 4, 2015 Talked about this idea with some others at our monthly match this weekend. I didn't even know that this "steampunk" was a thing... After looking it up on the old interwebs, it looks like something that some younger shooters would be into. Seems like a steampunk category would be a good way to bridge the gap between allowing modern guns while trying to stay true to the theme of cowboy shooting (costuming, etc). Here is the ever-evolving idea: Cowboy- all SASS equipment and categories apply "Pike" category- pre-1915 semi-auto handgun, any SASS rifle, any SASS shotgun or others from the time period (Model 10, Model 12, Auto-5, etc) Steampunk category- any pistol, any pistol caliber carbine, any shotgun Shooter must use at least one "period" gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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