Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Loadin BP is a pain in the …..


Chicken Scratch

Recommended Posts

Lyman and RCBS both make a rotor type measure that is, per their marketing, safe to use with Black Powder. I have a couple of the Lyman BP measures. They have brass rotors and a cast iron housing. Those they consider safe. Their very similar smokeless-rated measures have a steel rotor instead of the brass. I would "hazard" a guess that that is the major difference. Oh, and the BP measures have aluminum hoppers rather than a translucent plastic. But, since we are well down the road to dismissing the role of static electricity in whether the unit is safe, I think it boils down to steel versus brass.

 

Oh, and what did you say your BP flask was made of, especially the valve? Brass wasn't it?

 

So, what do I use to meter BP on a Dillon 550 powder-thru-expander die? Well, lookey there, it's a Lyman BP powder measure. Who woulda thunk it?

:lol:

 

 

Good luck, GJ

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 100
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Lyman and RCBS both make a rotor type measure that is, per their marketing, safe to use with Black Powder. I have a couple of the Lyman BP measures. They have brass rotors and a cast iron housing. Those they consider safe. Their very similar smokeless-rated measures have a steel rotor instead of the brass. I would "hazard" a guess that that is the major difference. Oh, and the BP measures have aluminum hoppers rather than a translucent plastic. But, since we are well down the road to dismissing the role of static electricity in whether the unit is safe, I think it boils down to steel versus brass.

 

Oh, and what did you say your BP flask was made of, especially the valve? Brass wasn't it?

 

So, what do I use to meter BP on a Dillon 550 powder-thru-expander die? Well, lookey there, it's a Lyman BP powder measure. Who woulda thunk it?

:lol:

 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Yup. Expensive little buggers, but if I ever upgrade to a progressive press, that's the powder throw I'll buy. :D

Link to post
Share on other sites

Since the thread has been hijacked and there have been several posts about black powder and static electricity ... here's an interesting link for the studious Wire members to respond to on the the subject ... http://www.aidic.it/lp2013/webpapers/215reza.pdf

Read what the US Bureau of Mines has to say about black powder & static electricity in the link report

 

Now for John Henry from his post ...

1. 4Fg is NOT the smallest powder, there is also 5Fg and Flash.

* Where can one buy 5Fg powder

* What is 5Fg powder used for

* Where can one buy Flash black powder

* What is the component composition of Flash powder

* What is Flash powder used for

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

* Where can one buy 5Fg powder

* What is 5Fg powder used for

* Where can one buy Flash black powder

* What is the component composition of Flash powder

* What is Flash powder used for

 

 

I see you don't shoot flintlocks. Flash powder is for use in the pan of a flintlock to ignite the main powder charge. Any place that sells BP sells flash powder.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really that hard, just different.

 

I have been shooing BP for years and use a LEE turret press. I do all case prep ahead in batches then use the turret press to drop Goex from a Lyman black powder measure (made of metal) which fits into the top of the LEE expanding die. I came up with this set up by experimentation. It's a bit hokey but works well. Once the cases are ready, I can load well over 100 rounds per hour. As for shotgun, I use a MEC Jr. and use a dipper for the BP. I keep intending to try dropping the Goex using the MEC charging bar but have not yet. Has anyone tried this?

 

SMK

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really that hard, just different.

 

I have been shooing BP for years and use a LEE turret press. I do all case prep ahead in batches then use the turret press to drop Goex from a Lyman black powder measure (made of metal) which fits into the top of the LEE expanding die. I came up with this set up by experimentation. It's a bit hokey but works well. Once the cases are ready, I can load well over 100 rounds per hour. As for shotgun, I use a MEC Jr. and use a dipper for the BP. I keep intending to try dropping the Goex using the MEC charging bar but have not yet. Has anyone tried this?

 

SMK

Not Goex but I have used my 600 Jr with KIK, Diamondback & Skirmish for about 6 years.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I keep intending to try dropping the Goex using the MEC charging bar but have not yet. Has anyone tried this?

 

SMK

I've only loaded BP thru my 600Jr charging bar since late 1986. To date, no incidents of death or mayhem. Maybe tomorrow, but then I might not live til then anyway! Everyday since Dec 2, 1973 has been a blessing from a benevolent God, and one that I know could end at any time. Before then it might have come at the hands of the NVA, but... I feel confident I have less to worry about BP than al Queda, or our own current communist regime. (Okay, I recognize that's probably too political, so everyone please pretend that I didn't say it)! :ph34r:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Since the thread has been hijacked and there have been several posts about black powder and static electricity ... here's an interesting link for the studious Wire members to respond to on the the subject ... http://www.aidic.it/lp2013/webpapers/215reza.pdf

Read what the US Bureau of Mines has to say about black powder & static electricity in the link report

 

I love this from the report,"black powder burns very vigorously".

 

FWIW, I load real black with a 550 and a MEC 9000. Ain't blowed up yet.

 

RR

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I have a L-N-L and picked up a Blackpowder Powder Measure & Accessories last year from a gentleman that decided not to try it and go back to scooping. Anyone use one of these items on their Hornady LNL? Just keep listening to these fine gents. I come here to listen 99% of the time. for tricks and learn from the mistakes they have already made.

 

 

Howdy

 

I load most of my Black Powder rounds (45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40) on a Hornady LNL AP. When loading BP I take off the standard Smokeless powder measure and pop on a Lyman BP measure. For some reason I decided to go with the Lyman BP measure rather than the one made by Hornady.

 

HornadyLLandLymanBPmeasure01.jpg

 

 

 

 

I used to just pop a powder funnel into station four and let the case rise up into the bottom of the funnel and hand dip my powder into the case, but that was pretty slow. The BP powder measure sped things up considerably.

 

UsingFunnel.jpg

 

 

 

The Lyman BP powder measure is not hooked up to the linkage of the press, so I have to flip the rotor manually for every round.

 

HornadyLLandLymanBPmeasure02.jpg

 

 

 

When loading 45 Colt I only have three dies in the press. That leaves station four empty. This allows a good opportunity to eyeball the case as it rises to be sure it is full of powder.

 

HornadyLLandLymanBPmeasure03.jpg

 

 

 

 

Here is the whole sequence. The case in the rear has been decapped, resized, and primed. The next one is about to be belled. The one on the right is about to be filled with powder. The one in the front of the photo is in the empty station, and there is a Big Lube bullet on top of the case in the last station about to be seated and crimped.

 

HornadyLLandLymanBPmeasure04.jpg

 

 

 

 

Lyman and RCBS both make a rotor type measure that is, per their marketing, safe to use with Black Powder. I have a couple of the Lyman BP measures. They have brass rotors and a cast iron housing. Those they consider safe. Their very similar smokeless-rated measures have a steel rotor instead of the brass. I would "hazard" a guess that that is the major difference. Oh, and the BP measures have aluminum hoppers rather than a translucent plastic. But, since we are well down the road to dismissing the role of static electricity in whether the unit is safe, I think it boils down to steel versus brass.

 

 

That has not been my experience. I buy standard Smokeless Lyman powder measures whenever I can find them at white elephant tables at gun shows. I cannibalize them for the rotors. In my experience, the rotors in the Smokeless measures are identical to the ones in the BP measure. They are all made of brass. I keep different rotors set up for my standard BP charges for all those different calibers, so I don't have to be resetting one rotor all the time.

 

LymanPowderRotors.jpg

 

 

 

LymanPowderRotor.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

here's an interesting link for the studious Wire members to respond to on the the subject ... http://www.aidic.it/lp2013/webpapers/215reza.pdf

Read what the US Bureau of Mines has to say about black powder & static electricity in the link report

 

What I found REAL interesting is that they put the "best guess" as to what caused the Goex plant at Minden LA to blow up, was a chunk of silica rock that caught in the rotor of a milling/grinding machine, caused by the operator being allowed by the safety regulations to put FLOOR SWEEPINGS back into the powder mill! Not static electricity.

 

Now, their procedures have been changed to require disposing of the floor sweepings.

 

Good luck, GJ

Link to post
Share on other sites

Since the thread has been hijacked and there have been several posts about black powder and static electricity ... here's an interesting link for the studious Wire members to respond to on the the subject ... http://www.aidic.it/lp2013/webpapers/215reza.pdf

Read what the US Bureau of Mines has to say about black powder & static electricity in the link report

 

Now for John Henry from his post ...

 

* Where can one buy 5Fg powder

* What is 5Fg powder used for

* Where can one buy Flash black powder

* What is the component composition of Flash powder

* What is Flash powder used for

 

 

 

 

5Fg mesh size:

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/help/Black_Powder_Size_Charts.asp

 

5Fg uses:

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/making-fireworks-projects/blackpowder-fireworks.asp

http://www.tiedyedfreaks.org/eric/Black-Powder-Cheat-Sheet.pdf(a Skylighter document)

 

5Fg for sale:

http://www.addictedtoblackpowder.com/2.html

 

 

I was taught that "flash powder" was previously used by photographers for a flash (hence the name) and that in modern times it is used for fireworks. It IS used for high-grade fireworks, but flash powder is NOT black powder, so I was wrong about that. Here's just a few of the links I found:

 

http://www.unitednuclear.com/bp.htm

http://epicfireworks.com/blog/2009/08/black-powder-vs-flash-powder/

http://www.cannonfuse.com/store/pc/Pyrotechnic-Formulas-Flash-Burst-Charges-Black-Powder-and-Whistle-Mix-d25.htm

Link to post
Share on other sites

Since the thread has been hijacked and there have been several posts about black powder and static electricity ... here's an interesting link for the studious Wire members to respond to on the the subject ... http://www.aidic.it/lp2013/webpapers/215reza.pdf

Read what the US Bureau of Mines has to say about black powder & static electricity in the link report

 

What I find most interesting about that is the comments about impact - I had never heard of using impact as an ignition source with black powder.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I see you don't shoot flintlocks. Flash powder is for use in the pan of a flintlock to ignite the main powder charge. Any place that sells BP sells flash powder.

 

Wrong. 4F is what is used and recommended for use in the pan in a flintlock. kR

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

What I find most interesting about that is the comments about impact - I had never heard of using impact as an ignition source with black powder.

 

Need to watch more old westerns, where the sheriff shoots a keg of black powder and blows up the whole gang. :lol: Yes, BP is impact sensitive.

 

Good luck, GJ

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Need to watch more old westerns, where the sheriff shoots a keg of black powder and blows up the whole gang. :lol: Yes, BP is impact sensitive.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

I've seen the movies, but I always figured it was just Hollywood... What say we get a keg and give it a whirl? :P

Link to post
Share on other sites

For loading BP, I use a dedicated Dillon Square Deal "B" with an aluminum powder measure and a MEC Sizemaster using a powder baffle that allows me to attach a 1lb BP container right the the press.

This arrangement has worked fine for years and I hardly ever get any BP residue on my loading area.

 

If I do, I just sweep it up with a small brush and dustpan and sprinkle it on my chicken salad. :)

 

~:Wylie:~

I would like to add an aluminum powder hopper to my Dillon SQD.

 

Can you provide the source for yours?

 

Thanks,

AR

Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: Elephanf FFFFFg at Crater Fireworks ... from a detail report about the S/A Pernambuco Powder Factory in Brazil that made Elephant, these were their only production sporting grades

Fg, 1. 68 ‑ 1.190 mm ( 10 mesh to 16 mesh)

FFg, 1. 19 ‑ 0.5 90 mm ( 16 mesh to 3 0 mesh)

FFFg, 0.84 ‑ 0.297 mm ( 20 mesh to 50 mesh)

FFFFg, 0.42 ‑ 0.149 mm ( 40 mesh to 100 mesh)

To my knowlege, Goex was the only manufacturer of 5Fg, but they discontined production of it.

Interesting that Crater lists 5FG / MEAL D as a sporting grade

If anyone wants a 'sporting grade' powder comparable to 5Fg, Swiss produces Null-B that runs 80 mesh grain size. It's expensive- 25 or 50 lb. lot: $30.08 per lb.

John Henry, thanks for the Crater link. Never knew about their sale products. Intend to call them about their Diamondback 2Fg bulk powder at $7.50 a pound. Has been my understanding that bulk powder can be only sold FTF but if they can ship it, intend to buy 25 lbs for shot shell reloading

Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: Elephanf FFFFFg at Crater Fireworks ... from a detail report about the S/A Pernambuco Powder Factory in Brazil that made Elephant, these were their only production sporting grades

Fg, 1. 68 ‑ 1.190 mm ( 10 mesh to 16 mesh)

FFg, 1. 19 ‑ 0.5 90 mm ( 16 mesh to 3 0 mesh)

FFFg, 0.84 ‑ 0.297 mm ( 20 mesh to 50 mesh)

FFFFg, 0.42 ‑ 0.149 mm ( 40 mesh to 100 mesh)

To my knowlege, Goex was the only manufacturer of 5Fg, but they discontined production of it.

Interesting that Crater lists 5FG / MEAL D as a sporting grade

If anyone wants a 'sporting grade' powder comparable to 5Fg, Swiss produces Null-B that runs 80 mesh grain size. It's expensive- 25 or 50 lb. lot: $30.08 per lb.

John Henry, thanks for the Crater link. Never knew about their sale products. Intend to call them about their Diamondback 2Fg bulk powder at $7.50 a pound. Has been my understanding that bulk powder can be only sold FTF but if they can ship it, intend to buy 25 lbs for shot shell reloading

Double check that - I think that is the 2FA price ???? Or, I misread it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: Elephanf FFFFFg at Crater Fireworks ... from a detail report about the S/A Pernambuco Powder Factory in Brazil that made Elephant, these were their only production sporting grades

Fg, 1. 68 ‑ 1.190 mm ( 10 mesh to 16 mesh)

FFg, 1. 19 ‑ 0.5 90 mm ( 16 mesh to 3 0 mesh)

FFFg, 0.84 ‑ 0.297 mm ( 20 mesh to 50 mesh)

FFFFg, 0.42 ‑ 0.149 mm ( 40 mesh to 100 mesh)

To my knowlege, Goex was the only manufacturer of 5Fg, but they discontined production of it.

Interesting that Crater lists 5FG / MEAL D as a sporting grade

If anyone wants a 'sporting grade' powder comparable to 5Fg, Swiss produces Null-B that runs 80 mesh grain size. It's expensive- 25 or 50 lb. lot: $30.08 per lb.

John Henry, thanks for the Crater link. Never knew about their sale products. Intend to call them about their Diamondback 2Fg bulk powder at $7.50 a pound. Has been my understanding that bulk powder can be only sold FTF but if they can ship it, intend to buy 25 lbs for shot shell reloading

 

Another discrepancy I've noticed in a couple of the links is that they claim that a license is need to buy "A" grade powders. I have bought 2Fa from John Venskoske at Back Creek on numerous occasions as it's MUCH cheaper than Cannon and he assured me that there is no such restriction. However, he only has the "A" grades in bulk and he will not ship bulk bags - it must be face-to-face. I'm fortunate enough to live only 90 minutes away and any excuse to visit Winchester is a good one in my book. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Double check that - I think that is the 2FA price ???? Or, I misread it.

 

 

Back Creek has 2Fa, 3Fa and 5Fa in bulk bags for only $280 per 25lbs bag. He will not ship bulk bags, but you may find a similar price somewhere in Texas...

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

What I found REAL interesting is that they put the "best guess" as to what caused the Goex plant at Minden LA to blow up, was a chunk of silica rock that caught in the rotor of a milling/grinding machine, caused by the operator being allowed by the safety regulations to put FLOOR SWEEPINGS back into the powder mill! Not static electricity.

 

Now, their procedures have been changed to require disposing of the floor sweepings.

 

Good luck, GJ

BP is milled wet.

OLG

Link to post
Share on other sites

BP is milled wet.

OLG

Better read the report, then we can talk. The operation that blew is done just barely moist, and is considered the most dangerous step. You can't bust chunks and screen the material when it's wet.

 

Good luck, GJ

Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, lets go back to the Goex explosion report ... black powder is a deflagurating explosion combustion, not an explosion combution - in the corning house is where the major plant explosion took place - a piece of quartz was found in the cake at the corning house which generated the necessary heat to blow the batch up (yes, the cake is not 100% dry then) with 2 explosions there

Now read this article referencing deflaguation respective heat and note the compound that is the oxider in black powder...

http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/deflagrants.htm

Link to post
Share on other sites

Better read the report, then we can talk. The operation that blew is done just barely moist, and is considered the most dangerous step. You can't bust chunks and screen the material when it's wet.

 

Good luck, GJ

Which 'blow-up' are you speaking of?

They have had 2.

IIRC-Both happened in the milling room.

OLG

Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, lets go back to the Goex explosion report ... black powder is a deflagurating explosion - the corning house is where the major plant explosion took place - a piece of quartz was found in the cake at the corning house which generated the necessary heat to blow the batch up (yes, the cake is not 100% dry then) with 2 explosions there

Now read this article referencing deflaguation respective heat and note the compound that is the oxider in black powder...

http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/deflagrants.htm

John-Is this the explosion the almost killed the son, of the owner of Powder Inc?

OLG

Link to post
Share on other sites

Screening house explosion, as covered in the report JB provided a link to, just above.

 

GJ

Link to post
Share on other sites

J

John-Is this the explosion the almost killed the son, of the owner of Powder Inc?

Gary - No. That explosion was Jerry Dean's son at Powder Inc. He was working in the ammo building, probably reloading BP rounds that Jerry sold

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to add an aluminum powder hopper to my Dillon SQD.

 

Can you provide the source for yours?

 

Thanks,

AR

 

I purchased it from Buffalo Arms about 8 years ago. I just checked their website and they don't seem to offer it anymore. They just have the brass hoppers for the Lyman 55

 

You might try just getting a 12" section of aluminum round tube that has an OD of 2 1/2" and ID of 2 1/4" It simply attaches to the Dillon powder base with two machine screws and the Dillon cap fits right on top (might need a little fitting)

 

~:Wylie:~

Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing there has to be 10 Gillian opinions on the "Proper" loading of black powder. Probably all are to some degree correct and many to some degree wrong.

 

It cannot be too complex or the old buffalo hunters without benefit of Mr Dillon( and I am not talking about Matt) could not have done it.

There are some universal truths such as you need to use a lube that is compatible with black powder to reduce/eliminate lead from essentially soldering itself to the bore and to keep the fouling soft enough to produce acceptable accuracy. What constitutes a good BP lube is an open question with at least half as many opinions as there are for "Proper" loading.

 

For our purposes hitting big targets pretty darn close probably 50 yards max if you are in a plainsman match to somewhere between 5 and 15 yards for a regular cowboy match pretty much anyway will work especially if one swabs the bore and sprays vinegar windex, moose milk, balistol you name it on anything that starts binding or dragging.

 

It is also a good idea not to leave space between the bullet and the powder, even if some studies have shown that is not much a a problem shooting pistol caliber rounds.

 

As to reduced loads grits, cream of wheat, tumbling media lubricated or non lubricated wool wads, fiber wads, paper wads, plastic wads all have their champions.

 

Special bp powder measures, lee dippers (omg they are plastic), store bought brass volumetric powder measures, properly sized spouts for powder flask, shell casings trimmed to hold the magic amount of bp all are used and I am quite sure I have left out the favorite of many.

 

Read a bunch and find out what works for you appears to be the way to go sitting in my saddle.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I purchased it from Buffalo Arms about 8 years ago. I just checked their website and they don't seem to offer it anymore. They just have the brass hoppers for the Lyman 55

 

You might try just getting a 12" section of aluminum round tube that has an OD of 2 1/2" and ID of 2 1/4" It simply attaches to the Dillon powder base with two machine screws and the Dillon cap fits right on top (might need a little fitting)

 

~:Wylie:~

I've given the tube some thought. If the right size tube can't be had as a standard commodity, maybe take the measure down to the muffler shop and have them expand or reduce a piece of tail pipe to fit?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

As to reduced loads grits, cream of wheat, tumbling media lubricated or non lubricated wool wads, fiber wads, paper wads, plastic wads all have their champions.

 

Oh, you missed granular activated charcoal as a filler. Just more of the same stuff that is already in BP. Never packs hard or sets up like many of the cereals are suspected of doing over time.

 

:lol:

 

Good luck, GJ

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.