What's the call?

[Shamrock Sadie]

What's the call? There are 4 pistol targets. They must be engaged in a 3-2-3-2 order. Shooter draws first pistol, 1st round is a dud and does not fire. Shooter then engages 1st target with 3 shots, then 2nd target with 1 shot. Shooter then draws 2nd pistol and engages 3rd target with 3 shots and 4th target with 2 shots.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Redacted, cuz I was wrong.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

If the shooter did not at least attempt to fire 2 rounds at the second target it would be a procedural and 5 seconds for the unfurled round. If it were the last target in the string there would be no p but you do not just get to pick one in the middle to not engage.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

5-second penalty for the "unfired round".

"P" for hitting the targets "out of order".

[Hoss]

He could have reloaded 1 to make up for the dud round, to keep a clean stage. Could have reloaded either pistol I believe, but had to maintain the 3-2-3-2 order.

[Irish Tom]

Correct me if I'm wrong, he could have avoided the P if after the dud, first round, he had only placed 2 rounds on that target and 2 on the next.?

[Shamrock Sadie]

So he should have pulled his 2nd pistol and shot the 2nd target one more time (so that he would engage it twice), then shot the 3rd target with 3 rounds and the 4th with 1 round....then take a miss on the last target (or reload to avoid the miss). Correct?

[Hoss]

Correct me if I'm wrong, he could have avoided the P if after the dud, first round, he had only placed 2 rounds on that target and 2 on the next.?

I think that's correct, could have also shot it dud, 3-2-3-1 and avoided a P....I think.....what say y'all?

[Shamrock Sadie]

What about this? The shooter draws his 1st pistol, shoots the 1st target with 3 rounds, the 2nd target with 1 round, then goes around the world and finds that the last round doesn't fire, so declares it dead. He would then still have to hit the 2nd target and take the miss at he end...correct?

[Shamrock Sadie]

5-second penalty for the "unfired round".

"P" for hitting the targets "out of order".

Is this because he engaged the 1st target 4 times?

[Captain Bill Burt]

So he should have pulled his 2nd pistol and shot the 2nd target one more time (so that he would engage it twice), then shot the 3rd target with 3 rounds and the 4th with 1 round....then take a miss on the last target (or reload to avoid the miss). Correct?

I think you're right on this! He had shooter's choice on target 1, but not 2, so his first shot from his second pistol should have gone there.

 

What about this? The shooter draws his 1st pistol, shoots the 1st target with 3 rounds, the 2nd target with 1 round, then goes around the world and finds that the last round doesn't fire, so declares it dead. He would then still have to hit the 2nd target and take the miss at he end...correct?

Now I think it's shooter's choice on number 2. He already 'engaged' it with the dead round, so he can either hit it with his first shot from his second pistol (which leaves the option for a reload open) or skip it and start on number 3 with his second pistol (now he can't make up the miss without picking up a P).

[Ace_of_Hearts]

What's the call? There are 4 pistol targets. They must be engaged in a 3-2-3-2 order. Shooter draws first pistol, 1st round is a dud and does not fire. Shooter then engages 1st target with 3 shots, then 2nd target with 1 shot. Shooter then draws 2nd pistol and engages 3rd target with 3 shots and 4th target with 2 shots.

No sadie.....

The shooter has a choice to take the miss on the first target where he had the dud...... Shooting dud + 2-2-3-2

OR

Shooter can take the miss on the last target when he is out of ammo...... Assuming he shot 3-2-3-1

OR

Shooter can reload a round in either pistol at any time BUT he must have 3 bangs on target 1 ... 2 bangs on target 2..... 3 bangs on target 3.... and 2 bangs on target 4.

He acquired the "P" when he only shot at target 2 - 1 time......

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

Is this because he engaged the 1st target 4 times?

I would say it is because he only engaged the 2nd target once.

 

Randy

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

No sadie.....

The shooter has a choice to take the miss on the first target where he had the dud......

OR

Shooter can take the miss on the last target when he is out of ammo...... Assuming he shot 3-2-3-1

OR

Shooter can reload a round in either pistol at any time BUT he must have 3 bangs on target 1 ... 2 bangs on target 2..... 3 bangs on target 3.... and 2 bangs on target 4.

He acquired the "P" when he only shot at target 2 - 1 time......

The number of bangs are irrelevant, a click would suffice. He also had the option of pointing g the first revolver at the second target and dropping g the hammer o e more time. Even if it did not go off he has the. Engaged the target twice and may proceed with the second revolver starting on the third target without a p but would still get 5 seconds for the u fired round.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Since we don't know how the scenario was written I am not ready to capitulate just yet.

 

If it was written as "Draw first pistol and engage target 1 three times, then target 2 twice. With second pistol, repeat instructions on targets 3 and 4'". What would your call be now?

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

It's not about engagement - it is about Hits.

 

See the Flow Chart.

 

The shooter did not hit the targets in the correct order, except for misses. So, a "P". Occurred when 5th round hit the 3rd target, with no prior misses.

 

And one miss for the unfired round.

 

PWB - correct once again, as expected.

[Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388]

A ten shot pistol string is no different than a ten shot rifle string. If you were a spotter and couldn't see the shooter, what would you have seen ? 3 rounds on target #1, 1 on target 2, 3 on 3 and 2 on 4. Shooter shot stage out of order and only 9 rounds. As PW said, one miss for the unfired round and a "P" for shooting stage out of order.............

Mink..............

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

It's not about engagement - it is about Hits.

 

See the Flow Chart.

 

The shooter did not hit the targets in the correct order, except for misses. So, a "P". Occurred when 5th round hit the 3rd target, with no prior misses.

 

And one miss for the unfired round.

 

PWB - correct once again, as expected.

Procedural penalties from page 24 of ROI

Engaging

the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other tha

n as required by

the

stage description.

Engaging in the correct order is what matters.

[Shamrock Sadie]

Since we don't know how the scenario was written I am not ready to capitulate just yet.

 

If it was written as "Draw first pistol and engage target 1 three times, then target 2 twice. With second pistol, repeat instructions on targets 3 and 4'". What would your call be now?

It was a 3-2-3-2 sweep.

[Shamrock Sadie]

A ten shot pistol string is no different than a ten shot rifle string. If you were a spotter and couldn't see the shooter, what would you have seen ? 3 rounds on target #1, 1 on target 2, 3 on 3 and 2 on 4. Shooter shot stage out of order and only 9 rounds. As PW said, one miss for the unfired round and a "P" for shooting stage out of order.............

Mink..............

Ok...putting it in that perspective makes sense. Thanks!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

SHOOTER's CHOICE

(same options apply here)

 

See Smokestack's comment in post #3...the ONLY target that would be "skippable" without a "P" would be the first one (moving on after engaging with the "dud" round)...or the last shot (if the shooter chose to NOT reload to replace the "dud").

 

It would have been possible for the shooter to shoot this with NO PENALTIES whatsoever had s/he chose option #1

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Since we don't know how the scenario was written I am not ready to capitulate just yet.

 

If it was written as "Draw first pistol and engage target 1 three times, then target 2 twice. With second pistol, repeat instructions on targets 3 and 4'". What would your call be now?

 

It's still a continuous 10-shot string no matter how it's written.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Correct me if I'm wrong, he could have avoided the P if after the dud, first round, he had only placed 2 rounds on that target and 2 on the next.?

YES

 

So he should have pulled his 2nd pistol and shot the 2nd target one more time (so that he would engage it twice), then shot the 3rd target with 3 rounds and the 4th with 1 round....then take a miss on the last target (or reload to avoid the miss). Correct?

YES

 

I think that's correct, could have also shot it dud, 3-2-3-1 and avoided a P....I think.....what say y'all?

YES

 

What about this? The shooter draws his 1st pistol, shoots the 1st target with 3 rounds, the 2nd target with 1 round, then goes around the world and finds that the last round doesn't fire, so declares it dead. He would then still have to hit the 2nd target and take the miss at he end...correct?

Shooter's choice at that point to take the miss on the 2^nd target (it WAS engaged, so no "P") or at the end of the string if s/he chose to NOT reload to replace the "dud".

 

Is this because he engaged the 1st target 4 times?

NO...the "P" is for failure to engage the 2^nd target twice...the skip to target #3 was NOT a viable option in the middle of the shooting string.

[Dubious Don #56333]

SHOOTER's CHOICE

(same options apply here)

 

See Smokestack's comment in post #3...the ONLY target that would be "skippable" without a "P" would be the first one (moving on after engaging with the "dud" round)...or the last shot (if the shooter chose to NOT reload to replace the "dud").

 

It would have been possible for the shooter to shoot this with NO PENALTIES whatsoever had s/he chose option #1

No Option B or Highway option? What fun is that ?!?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Don't make me come down there to 'splain this to ya (too danged HOT this time of year!)

 

[Curly Red Ryder]

May be the problem can come from the definition of "engaged"!

RO2 page 30: "Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target."

"Attempting" is maybe not the more correct term ad in the OP the shooter has attempted, he aimed the target, pulled the trigger and nothing, but not fired .

 

Should it be better to say that "Engaged - aiming a target, pulling the trigger and a round goes downrange".

 

Any firearms rifle or pistols Shooter aims, bang bang bang bang clik, he reshoot on the "clicked target" and bangs,it's OK no P, he skips to the following target thinking "I engaged the klicked one" and bang on it, he deserves a P. If a round has to go downrange so it had to do bang and we can say for sure the target has been engaged

 

Just my idea to make the problem clearer, maybe worth nothing, but I tried to help!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Should it be better to say that "Engaged - aiming a target, pulling the trigger and a round goes downrange".

 

 

NO thanks!...we (the WB/ROC/TGs) settled that issue long ago.

It counts as "engaged" whether the round goes downrange or not.

If it only goes "click" and/or is ejected (as from a rifle), the shooter has a choice to "attempt to hit" (i.e. "engage") the target again to stay in sequence; then MAY reload at some point to replace the "bad" round that didn't go "downrange" to negate the 5-second penalty for the unfired round (the one that didn't go downrange).

 

One more time:

 

SHOOTER's CHOICE.

[Blackey Cole]

So by dud the round did not leave the barrel correct, if it did the he fire four rounds at the first target the bad round that didn't make it to the target, the three rounds he hit with creating a P. Then fired the remaing round only on the second target receiving a Miss for the unfired round assuming the targets were to be engaged in a certin order pre op post but if it was three rounds on the first target, two rounds on second target etc the the dud could be counted as a miss OMn the second target otherwise why would he shoot three on the first and he hit the first target three times. It depends on how the stage was written weather it was written as order or round count.

[Blackey Cole]

If it was a dud why didn't the to stop the shooter who possibly had a round in the barrel unless it left the barrel and was seen to hit down range. Then being the first round fired that didn't go down range the shooter who should have been stopped by the to for safety should request to be able to reload and restart the stage.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

So by dud the round did not leave the barrel correct, if it did the he fire four rounds at the first target the bad round that didn't make it to the target, the three rounds he hit with creating a P. Then fired the remaing round only on the second target receiving a Miss for the unfired round assuming the targets were to be engaged in a certin order pre op post but if it was three rounds on the first target, two rounds on second target etc the the dud could be counted as a miss OMn the second target otherwise why would he shoot three on the first and he hit the first target three times. It depends on how the stage was written weather it was written as order or round count.

The OP specifically states "...must be engaged in a 3-2-3-2 order"...if THAT is changed, the answer to the "WtC?" would also change.

 

The shooter did NOT "fire" four rounds at the first target...only three rounds went "downrange".

REF: the "SHOOTER's CHOICE" link for options as they apply to "engagement" vs "HITTING targets out of order" (with actual FIRED rounds)

 

If it was a dud why didn't the to stop the shooter who possibly had a round in the barrel unless it left the barrel and was seen to hit down range. Then being the first round fired that didn't go down range the shooter who should have been stopped by the to for safety should request to be able to reload and restart the stage.

OP stated "dud" (complete failure to fire/pop the primer) vs "squib" (fired but bullet failed to clear the muzzle)

...no mention whether this was the first round of the stage (or not).

If the shooter chose to continue shooting after the first round of the stage failed to fire, that was his/her choice at that point.

[Shamrock Sadie]

If it was a dud why didn't the to stop the shooter who possibly had a round in the barrel unless it left the barrel and was seen to hit down range. Then being the first round fired that didn't go down range the shooter who should have been stopped by the to for safety should request to be able to reload and restart the stage.

It wasn't a squib...the primer was a dud....didn't fire. It had happened a few times before on previous stages, so he knew what it was.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

It wasn't a squib...the primer was a dud....didn't fire. It had happened a few times before on previous stages, so he knew what it was.

 

Sounds like time to change out to a new batch of ammo. Did the shooter identify the cause of the problem?

[Shamrock Sadie]

He thinks it was a bad batch of Federal primers. He's never had that problem before and is a seasoned shooter. He shot some ammo that another cowboy gave him and those shot fine...so not his pistols.

[Rye Miles #13621]

What's the call? There are 4 pistol targets. They must be engaged in a 3-2-3-2 order. Shooter draws first pistol, 1st round is a dud and does not fire. Shooter then engages 1st target with 3 shots, then 2nd target with 1 shot. Shooter then draws 2nd pistol and engages 3rd target with 3 shots and 4th target with 2 shots.

I say a P, did not engage targets as written, plus a miss. Just like PWB said! BTW I came to my conclusion BEFORE I read anyone else's opinion. Apparently I'm not as stupid as I look!!

 

Rye

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

It wasn't a squib...the primer was a dud....didn't fire. It had happened a few times before on previous stages, so he knew what it was.

HMMMMMM..... that's just not likely...in fact, I'd bet a new pink SASS Cadillac or fur-lined toilet seat that the primer fired but there was no powder and the crimp was tight enough that the bullet wasn't propelled enough to leave the case. That especially if he was shooting 357 up to 45 Colt.

 

In a pistol it often causes the primer to back out enough to act like a high primer. In a rifle it just goes <CLICK> and a you jack out a round and blame it on a bad primer.

 

Don't ask me how I know....