Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Hi all, as I'm a new CAS shooter, I'm having to work up my stable of firearms. What is the general consensus of shooting an original 1897? I know millions of them were made, making me think there's not a ton of collector value in a run-of-the-mill example, is this correct? I'd hate to devalue a collector piece. It's my understanding that the 1897 was an improvement over it's predecessor in that it could shoot smokeless shells, is a receiver (That passes gunsmith muster, of course) from 1899 going to be able to handle standard 12ga field loads? My though is that, at some point, I will find myself low on hand loaded feather weight shells and need to pick up a commercial box in a pinch. Of course, the last thing I want to do is blow a gun up. So, given an older shotgun like this, are there reasons NOT to compete with one? Thanks in advance for any input!HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 As long as the gun is in good shape and has no sentimental value to you, go a head and shoot it. It is better to use target lows or lighter to make the gun last longer. And it will help avoid wear a lot if you reduce the hammer spring tension. That is another major source of wear because the hammer was set up for much harder primers than any we now have. http://marauder.homestead.com/shotgun.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 The only thing that makes a '97 collectible is that you have to own 3-5 to have one that runs in competition. The truth is that none of us is really John Wayne or Al Swearingen either so there isn't a single gun we're shooting that has a bit of collectible value. It may well be a Snap On socket wrench. Shoot it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 Excellent. That's what I was hoping for! The Authenticity of the shotgun is appealing for sure - especially since I'm molasses handed at the moment. (slow shooter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Originals may have a 2 9/16"(?) chamber & you might get a smith to verify that & have it reamed if necessary. And I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 The US Army and Marine Corps shot the 97 with heavy buckshot loads through WW I and WW II. 97 is a pretty tough gun design. Cowboy shooting is hard on guns because we run them faster then they have been run before. Don't be afraid of running up to standard target loads (1 1/8 ounce, 1200 FPS) through one. But, life will be easier on the gun (and your shoulder) if you run the typical "Featherlite" type loads (7/8 ounce at 1000 FPS). The number of SASS gunsmiths who are 97 wizards is falling off as cowboy side moves to SxS shotguns, so you will likely need (more than ever) a stable of 97s. "One to shoot, one for backup, one for a gun in the shop" I would not get started on 97s unless I had a standing relationship with a good 97 mechanic, or could do all the work myself. (Sorta like owning an Italian sports car.) It will become harder over the next few years to find good 97 smiths. And the originals are being/have been consumed by, first, cowboy shooters, and now Wild Bunch shooters. Since you are coming in after most of the good ones have been picked over and then run hard, finding good Winchester 97s now is hard work. If you wanted to buy the Chinese clones, you might have better luck finding enough late model 97 clones to make a stable. That's what I did, after going through 3 worn out Winchesters and not having a gunsmith that I found would do good enough work to bring them back to life and make them run fast. But, buy only the 06 series or newer of the Chinese clones - earlier ones are mostly junk metal and poor quality fitting. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 I have the ability to do some smithing and fabricating so that doesn't scare me. I'm currently getting an 87 in shape to compete with. Built my own carrier side for 2 shot loading, have all the ejection issues worked out and am currently slicking the action. Even my my 13 year old can run it, but that sucker is heavy! I'd love to put a '97 in the line-up. We had the privilege of shooting one in a match this weekend we all did very well with it (me, wife, daughter). We were told by the owner that it was 'experienced' and that he spent a lot of time slam-firing it in matches. It was a bit 'loose' but since we are all newbie shooters we went much slower with it and shot it conventionally. The biggest plus was my daughter was able to load it in the clock with GREAT ease while keeping the muzzle pointed directly at the taret. Anything that makes the competition more enjoyable for her, I'm all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBFields Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Coyote Cap Gunworks. He is a master with 87 and 97's. He has made the Chinese guns to his specs and and can be made race ready. Worth it to talk with him. I have a win 97 and a coyote cap 97 and prefer cap's over the Winchester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 Yep. I've read every little bit of literature he has on his mods for the 87. Most of them make sense outright. Some don't make sense until you have the action in your hand and have run a few rounds through it. I've found having access to a milling making has helped with a few mods. He's a wizard with the 87! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 The biggest plus was my daughter was able to load it in the clock with GREAT ease while keeping the muzzle pointed directly at the taret. Anything that makes the competition more enjoyable for her, I'm all about. Lots of the girls in the sport have started with a 97 with the butt stock shortened to about 12 inches and a recoil pad added. The upper body strength needed for a slicked up 97 is a lot less than closing and opening most doubles, and the muzzle can stay right on target while loading. It's almost more of a Junior's gun than the double is (at least, when you load under cowboy rules). Lots of youngsters take right to them. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 I've owned two "real" '97s and would not hesitate to buy another. I think it's a great ladies and youth gun and since the buttstock is easily changed out and aftermarket stocks are available you can cut it to fit very easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pay Dirt Norvelle #90056 Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 I use a pair of 1897s for CAS and so far they are great. I have just bought a coach gun for the heck of it though. The 1897s were made in late 1918 and early 1919. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTPOCKETS Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 97's are great for CAS, still finding good guns in our area with not much trouble. Recommend pulling firing pins and cleaning or replacing on older models. Learned the hard way and had an out of battery firing on my first 97. Shooting an original as my main match and it is as slick as any out there. Have a couple of Norinco's as back ups too. MT Pockets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTPOCKETS Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 HD -- forgot to mention we shoot Federal factory 2 3/4 dram 1oz loads all the way up to Winchester1 1/8th both in 8-9 shot. Pump away and have fun! MT Pockets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Dollar Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Hurricane, I shoot my ''97 and love it! Talk about old..... Mine dates to 1899 and still shoots strong. The only thing not original on it is the stock. I don't shoot it every match as sometimes I like shooting my double. The '97 is a fun gun to shoot though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Ron Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Howdy, Coyote Cap is a great resource. The work he has done for me has stood up well. He worked on a couple blackhawks and the only problem since was that I got so much buildup in the firing chambers that I couldn't chamber 38specials in a .357 cylinder He works on shotguns too. Best CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 My main match 97's were made in 1903 and 1907 and Jim Bowie at C&I just slicked up the 1903 and it is a sweet shootin shotgun. It works with any round I feed it. He has another one right now that he's slicking up. They are all 16 ga. and whenever I find one I buy it. The only collector value they have is to guys like me who can't stop buying them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICIOUS, SASS#8014 Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Howdy; I have been luckly. Up north there still is win. 97 showing up that are good. Got three with serial number over a million. Gotta love them older farmers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus Brady Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 I found one when I was in SoCal that had been re-barreled to a 30". It was marked "Adams Express Company" and was serial-numbered on the stock. Within 24 hours, it had been cut to 20" and had a new bead. Still got it. I've had others and I like them. Might go for another sometime. Only use AA or equivalent loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 one note on Coyote Cap: be sure to get a semi-firm date for the repairs to be made. Makes life a whole bunch easier.... just saying.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Welcome Hurricane. I shoot all original longguns (Win 87, Win 97, Rem 1878) but there are others on this forum smarter and more competitive than me. Original 97s are good guns. Later D and E models seem to be have fewer bugs than the earlier versions. Buy a couple of extractors and have a 'smith check the lock-up and extractors. You will still want a extra 97 for a large match (state or regional). The only 1897s that I would not put through CAS wear due to excessive value is a Black Diamond version, an engraved model or an attic find (LNIB). My opinion is that the SxS is the easiest scattergun to start with and shoot decent times. The 97 and 87 can be very fast but require a bit more practice and service to maintain fast times. I shoot light reloads and clay loads of 1150 FPS (Remington Gunclub, Remington STS, Winchester AA) with no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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