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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

How about starting a new forum for vendors?

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That was my, "don't let allie mo know what I'm really saying" language.... hehehehe

 

pb

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I have said it time and again, we had as painless a solution when I first came aboard. It added nothing to the band width, it allowed instant low key access to those who visited the SASS site and required no additional problems for SASS, moderators or anyone not searching for a problem to solve. It worked well for years UNTIL one of the larger vendors put a whisper into a certain ear, "The small vendors are getting a free ride for what I have to pay for". Rather than buck a larger advertiser, SASS did not remind the individual that all he had to do was post on the WIRE for the same little added freebie. OH, by the way, it was called a link and was allowed in our signature lines... Such as Slowhand Bobs Fancy Pistol Grips . (PS: Disclaimer for the geniuses that be, this isnt an actual link and to my knowledge there is no real such business! By the way, that same large vendor is still one of our larger major vendors who is still scared of the home shop boys.

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I support a Forum for Vendors also, Ya could even charge say

$5 a month payable for a year at a time, with enough Vendors ya

would be doing good....

 

West Fargo AKA Wes Flowers SASS #1910....

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I would vote thumbs down on this idea.

 

There's too much "vendor" influence in SASS right now, in my opinion. You can see that in the changes in the rules over time.

Just what facts do you have to support your opinion of this "influence"?

PLEASE, list all of the matches you have shot, where you saw this type of "vendor influence".

Also, list the rules changes that you can prove were changed because of "vendor influence".

LG

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Hi Eamon,

 

I know and he knows I know. ;)

 

Who will pay for the additional bandwidth? Who will ensure that the commercial sellers have proper licenses and collect sales tax? Also, who will be held responsible for ensuring that items discussed on the following site are handled appropriately?

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus28-advertising-and-marketing-internet-rules-road

 

What would SASS's liability be for legal infractions. I think they would have to get legal advice before this could happen. There is a cost without benefit to the Corporation.

 

I doubt that SASS wants to take this on. For it to happen, the Guideline I quoted would have to be changed first.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS If you want to support affiliated vendors with online purchases, look here. http://www.sassnet.com/Affiliated-Merchants-001A.php

 

The IRS & Obama?

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On the surface, sure, it sounds like a great idea. Another way for those vendors who support our sport to hawk their wares.

 

If you could get by with a bulletproof disclaimer, how would you control who could post in the forum?

I have been tolt my lawyers, there aint no such thing as bullet proof, or we would work our selfs out of a job

true story, after spending $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ with many

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I'm not sure where a problem would arise, we allow individuals to sell firearms on classifieds, why not a section for dealers who have all kind of rules they must obey.

 

pb

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I'm not sure where a problem would arise, we allow individuals to sell firearms on classifieds, why not a section for dealers who have all kind of rules they must obey.

 

pb

you answer yer own question

are they legal in their jurisdiction

do they have a sales tax number, business tax ID number, are they insured for product liability, do have a bond if it is required

do they have a city licence / permit, county license or state license if required where they are located

you know, government regulators

how does that affect SASS

well , ya just never know

 

but I could be wrong

we need a lawyer just to prove one way or another

wait, then we need an aposing lawyer for equal time

 

yikes, my head is spinning now

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I think it would be great to have a vendors area if it could be worked out. There are already some in the classifieds even though it is contrary to the rules. A separate vendor section would make it easier to shop for and purchase vendors wares.

Horace

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Hi Eamon,

 

I know and he knows I know. ;)

 

Who will pay for the additional bandwidth? Who will ensure that the commercial sellers have proper licenses and collect sales tax? Also, who will be held responsible for ensuring that items discussed on the following site are handled appropriately?

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus28-advertising-and-marketing-internet-rules-road

 

What would SASS's liability be for legal infractions. I think they would have to get legal advice before this could happen. There is a cost without benefit to the Corporation.

 

I doubt that SASS wants to take this on. For it to happen, the Guideline I quoted would have to be changed first.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS If you want to support affiliated vendors with online purchases, look here. http://www.sassnet.com/Affiliated-Merchants-001A.php

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but sass should have zero liability since it is simply allowing advertisement

 

No one checks to make sure that vendors are paying taxes and have business liscences at every annual matche

 

And to say supporting vendors by helping customers find them is " cost without benefit to the corporation" is a very negative attitude and if I where to be given that answer by a representative of the company (and moderators are) I would seriously reconsider any future sponsorship or donations to said organization.

 

Ali I mean no dosrespect, but if you are gonna represent SASS as a moderator you should really consider how your words reflect as a "company rep" not just as an indavidule with an opinion or an idea

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HMMM, would allowing an unadorned business link as part of ones signature line not work??

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HMMM, would allowing an unadorned business link as part of ones signature line not work??

From the Guidelines:

"Unacceptable Links in your Permanent Signature Links to commercial or offensive web sites as well as bulletin boards, chat rooms in the permanent signature line of any user is not acceptable. Acceptable Links in your Permanent Signature • Links to your personal non-commercial web site; • Links to your shooting club(s).

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Hello GA,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but sass should have zero liability since it is simply allowing advertisement

I have no idea about SASS's liability. I asked a question. I would be glad if someone with legal expertise could answer. Free legal advice would be great.

No one checks to make sure that vendors are paying taxes and have business liscences at every annual matche

 

I know nothing about this and was only directing my comments at potential on-line problems from reading the document that I posted a link to. I could be mistaken, but I believe the only matches SASS has control over is state and above matches. Things like this would be in the contract if they were a concern.


And to say supporting vendors by helping customers find them is " cost without benefit to the corporation" is a very negative attitude and if I where to be given that answer by a representative of the company (and moderators are) I would seriously reconsider any future sponsorship or donations to said organization.I did not say this, I said the legal research would have a cost without a benefit. SASS already has two pages to help customers find vendors. How is it asking questions and stating an "opinion" with respect to current Guidelines negative in light of that.

Ali I mean no dosrespect, but if you are gonna represent SASS as a moderator you should really consider how your words reflect as a "company rep" not just as an indavidule with an opinion or an idea

Do you believe I should have no personal opinions and if I do, I should resign, even if my opinion supports current Guidelines?

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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HMMMM dummy me, I did not think this was started as a question about 'current' guidelines but rather as a conversation on trying to help the smallest vendors, perhaps through "Guideline' change. I think the topic should simply die as it will only keep being handled as some sort of Mars calling Venus misunderstanding and cause frustration in the camp! Apparently SASS is doing so much better now days than the fokes being talked about and thus not concerned??? Just feed them cake!

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HMMMM dummy me, I did not think this was started as a question about 'current' guidelines but rather as a conversation on trying to help the smallest vendors, perhaps through "Guideline' change. I think the topic should simply die as it will only keep being handled as some sort of Mars calling Venus misunderstanding and cause frustration in the camp! Apparently SASS is doing so much better now days than the fokes being talked about and thus not concerned??? Just feed them cake!

Whoa!

 

You want something known to "SASS," don't look to the Wire for a definitive answer. Ask the WB or CEO through the Contacts page,

 

If SASS didn't want to have this talked about, I would have heard to shut it down or you would have heard from one of them. I'm just giving the party line from the Guidelines and explaining existing pages. You want a Guideline changed, suggest it. Now you know it exists.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Was that Mars, Venus thing a sexist comment? If so, read this from the Guidelines. "Editing Messages: Procedural SASS Wire Moderators have the authority to Edit Messages and are directed to do so when the message: • Contains profanity, racism, anti-Semitism, sexism or offensive statements;" :o;)

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This has turned disgusting, do as you will and I bow out. Sorry fokes but this is not even reasonable, yall can have it !

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Spur rowel size and clothing requirements. Granted they are just in the discussion phase, but both topics were started and pushed by vendors.

 

Actually, vendors did NOT instigate either of those discussion items.

The WB & ROC were considering both of those issues well before any vendor opinions were solicited/submitted.

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Actually, vendors did NOT instigate either of those discussion items.

The WB & ROC were considering both of those issues well before any vendor opinions were solicited/submitted.

Thanks for the info. I have edited my post.

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I wish the sass shooter- vendors could post I have blank,blank and blank and I will be at blank shoot next week end.I don't get to go to a lot of shoots but if I was going to the same shoot I could contact them and place a order.

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I don't happen to have a real personal interest in this issue; I search the Internet with Google for folks who make/sell Western gear, and have found that, together with the SASS Classifieds, to be sufficient for my limited needs. But there is a potential here for those who need/want more, or for those in the business, or for SASS as an enterprise that grows through profitably providing services to its members.

 

But before anyone thinks this is a "simple" or "common sense" proposal, I would caution you that e-commerce is anything but.

 

Just posting a list of vendors is straightforward. But as soon as you become a marketplace for purchases and sales, you enter the world of, for instance, E-Bay. Now you become a potential target for unsatisfied buyers, unsatisfied sellers, fraud, con artists, govenment inquiries, class actions, and tax collectors. Admittedly, the scale would be much smaller, but all you need is one really angry consumer, and you can see your assets dwindle rapidly. This is not just the SASS Classifieds without the restriction on commercial vendors. Participants in the Classifieds overwhelmly exhibit exemplary restraint and good will, and transactions seldom result in disputes; this is the Cowboy Way applied to a personal sales setting. I'm not suggesting that professional vendors and their purchasers aren't ethical; it's just that when it's a straight commercial deal, the transaction tends to become more of a straight business arrangement, and there is less room for "forgive and forget" when something goes wrong. And that is probably appropriate.

 

Wiki has a list of some of the common problems encountered in E-Bay's operations:

 

"Frauds that can be committed by sellers include

  • selling counterfeit merchandise - see section below for more details;
  • shill bidding - see section below for more details;
  • selling bootleg merchandise;
  • receiving payment and not shipping merchandise;
  • shipping items other than those described;
  • giving a deliberately misleading description;
  • knowingly and deliberately shipping faulty merchandise;
  • denying warranty exchange after pre-agreeing to RMA of DOA merchandise;
  • knowingly selling stolen goods;
  • misrepresenting the cost of shipping;
  • using bulk shipping prices to knowingly mask much higher costing, individual return shipping

Frauds committed by buyers include

  • PayPal fraud, namely filing false shipping damage claim with the shipping company and with PayPal;
  • Friendly fraud: receiving merchandise and claiming otherwise;
  • returning items other than received; and
  • the buyer sending a forged payment-service e-mail that states that he has made a payment to the seller's account (an unsuspecting seller may ship the item before realizing that the e-mail was forged).

 

As for whether SASS or any other operator of such a site is exposed to potential litigation liability, the simple answer is "Yes". First, anyone can be sued for anything; all it takes is a written Complaint and a filing fee. Getting clear of even a groundless claim can take large amounts of time and money. If I had a client considering this kind of deal, I would caution them that they were likely to be exposed to claims, that they had better build the likely costs into their fee structure, and that they needed VERY aggressive disclaimer, hold harmless and indemnity provissions in their dealings with sellers and buyers to try to insulate themselves as much as possible from claims. Take, for example, intellectual property rights - copyrights and trademarks. Sales of knock-offs and illegal copies on the Internet are rampant. How would a commercial vendor site host make a good faith effort to establish who holds those rights, police the sales to prevent pirating and then insulate themselves from claims that they are profiting from such pirating, especially where they earn fees or commissions from sales? (I am assuming that the volunteer model will not work for a commercial vendor site; the work effort is too demanding to avoid the use of professional administrators, and the money to cover such costs probably has to come from the commercial activity). There are a number of professional organizations who, on behalf of creative clients, search for online pirating of copyrighted works, and then threaten to (and do) sue hosting sites, often for leverage to obtain identification information that allows them to directly pursue the pirates. Responding to these claims, as well as to subpoenas for similar information from private litigants and government entities, is time consuming and expensive.

 

Now, a CAS vendor site is going to be MUCH smaller than E-Bay, and the risk decreases with the volume. But so does the profitability, and so does the ability to absorb the cost of even one sale gone bad and blamed on the host.

 

Could it be done successfully? Probably. But it would call for very extensive agreements with sellers and buyers, shielding the host as much as possible from all potential claims (and with the realization that nothing is perfect). I would think that the most likely venue for this kind of exchange would be a group of vendors (who could save significantly on their individual advertising/e-commerce costs if they merged their efforts into a single store); perhaps they could negotiate a deal with SASS to "house" this exchange on the SASS site, but cede all operations and liabilities to the vendor group. SASS provides a service, giving vendors frequent contact and easy access to their likely customer base, at less cost than the vendor would incur if they tried to generate as many daily "views" on their own; SASS makes a modest profit; members get a convenient, one-stop place to shop on-line; and vendors hopefully see a sales increase from being "present" in the "SASS Supermarket".

 

The devil is in the details; but it seems doable, with motivated parties. I'd start with the vendors group, and see if there is interest and the willingness to assume costs and risks in exchange for potential profits.

 

LL

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all i am sayin is that law suits can bring up funny results

vendors selling guns / action jobs / ammo etc have product liabilitys different then wranger type blue jeans

 

law suits often times name everyone under the sun these days that was remotely related to what ever the case is based upon

 

no biggie

a vendor fourm would be good

but in the mean time, the CC list many good ones :D

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Loophole, based on your post I think it would be very prudent for SASS to immediately shut down the Classifieds Section to save themselves from all the doom and peril.

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Loophole, based on your post I think it would be very prudent for SASS to immediately shut down the Classifieds Section to save themselves from all the doom and peril.

 

 

(Chuckle) :D:D:D

 

Don't give 'em any ideas!!!

 

Sorry, Outlaw...but lawyers are trained, with good reason, to look for all the possible pitfalls, and then to plan and prepare accordingly. That's the best way to protect clients, if done with a dose of economic reality.

 

Please notice that I drew a major distinction between the SASS Classifieds and ordinary e-commerce. Our Classified are a unique example of commerce intermingled with personal trust and good will - like we would like to think of face-to-face deals in the 1800's, when a man's word was his bond.

 

I don't think SASS is in any real peril from the present arrangement. However, if they wish to expand further, free initial consultations are available...... :P

 

LL

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that would be a start....

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Loophole, based on your post I think it would be very prudent for SASS to immediately shut down the Classifieds Section to save themselves from all the doom and peril.

classifieds by individual persons probably dont have anything have assets worthy of much of a law suit

your alias says gambler

large corporations are all lawyered up for reasons

lawyer types look at the gamble

sometimes them lawyer types keep who they are advising,,, from doing things

as it may not be worth the gamble

in our court system, one still has to defend them self from suits that should never have been filed in the first place

that cost time - energy - $$

just sayin

 

we can certainly agree to disagree ;)

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Is Colt a vendor? Henry Firearms? Bianchi? Should they be given free advertising along with the little guy? Should there be fees like for ads in the CC? I dunno. Curious.

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Is Colt a vendor? Henry Firearms? Bianchi? Should they be given free advertising along with the little guy? Should there be fees like for ads in the CC? I dunno. Curious.

 

 

Sure they are, or,,,,, why not,,,,just like:

 

Midway Shooting Supply,?

 

Brownell's?

 

Dupont,

Hercules,

Hodgdon

Winchester,

Federal

CCI,

Ford,

Chevrolet,

Toyota,

and the list goes on and on.

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