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Major Forsyth

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From reading the many responses, as the SASS manuals say nothing, the answer to the question is ambiguous at best. However we have to consider the following:

 

1. As a matter of convention we in the U.S. write from left to right. Therefore tgt 1 was the left most target and the shooting string should have started there.

2. In marching we always start on the left foot and when we count cadence it is always 1,2,3,4 not 4,3,2,1.

3. Everyone else up to that point in time shot the string starting on the left.

4. The spotters were unanimous on the P.

5. If the stage HAD been written "Starting on either end" (which it was not) then there would have been no issue.

 

Lastly and perhaps this is the most important aspect of this. We had one new shooter with us and two visitors interested in SASS. The actions of the complainant could have (and really should have) resulted in a 'Spirit of the Game' penalty. I can only wonder what the new shooter and visitors thought when they left the range.

 

Your humble servant;

 

Major George Alexander Forsyth

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Hi Folks,

 

What bothers me most about situations like this is that they are interpreted differently.

 

Most local clubs at Cowboy Town are adamant about shooters having choices. You would be able to start on either end on almost every scenario.

 

Other clubs interpret left as target one and the order as being specifically stated in a case like this.

 

I wish we could do something to ensure that calls are uniformly made. Maybe we need a stage Convention. I wouldn't care what the Convention is, just so everyone is aware of it. I would prefer something like, "If instructions do not specifically state which end is target 1, the shooter may start on either the left or right end."

 

In the last discussion we had about this type of thing, one shooter wanted to start in the middle on a sweep. My opinion is that "A sweep may start on either end."

 

Of course, this could be solved by more descriptive scenario writing. However, the trend seems to be toward brevity. Wish I had all the answers...

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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... Shooter complains vociferously (a nice way of saying hissy fit) and complains to the Match Director...

...The actions of the complainant could have (and really should have) resulted in a 'Spirit of the Game' penalty...

Hi Major,

 

I don't see an advantage to starting on the right versus the left. The following is given in the ROI for a SOG penalty.

FAILURE TO ENGAGE/SPIRIT OF THE GAME

30-Second Penalty

 Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage.

 Shooting ammunition that does not meet the power factor, minimum velocity. The penalty is applied for each stage a competitor is checked and their ammunition is found not to meet the power factor or minimum velocity.

 Willfully refusing to rope a steer, throw a stick of dynamite or otherwise make an attempt to complete any other non-shooting procedure written within the stage instructions.

 Note: Two Spirit of the Game or Failure to Engage penalties will result in a Match Disqualification.

 

If the shooter crossed the line and was belligerent, following is the penalty.

MATCH DISQUALIFICATION

...

 Belligerent attitude / Unsportsman-like conduct...

 

So he either earned a MDQ or had a legitimate complaint that was stated appropriately.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Rifle target order is

 

1,5,2,4,3 and repeat

 

Shooter goes to the line and engages the right most target first. Everywhere I've been and since I've been shooting SASS (7 years now) the left most target is number 1 unless the scenario states differently. All three spotters call a Procedural for shooting the targets out of order. Shooter complains vociferously (a nice way of saying hissy fit) and complains to the Match Director. Match Director comes to the stage and says he should have written it to be from either end. He goes over and changes the stage scenario to reflect this. The P is removed from the shooters score.

 

I've spent about 30 minutes going thru all the manuals looking for what it says about target numbering. Or is this one of those cases where if it does not specify then the shooter can make any target number 1? :wacko::blink:

 

From reading the many responses, as the SASS manuals say nothing, the answer to the question is ambiguous at best. However we have to consider the following:

 

1. As a matter of convention we in the U.S. write from left to right. Therefore tgt 1 was the left most target and the shooting string should have started there.

2. In marching we always start on the left foot and when we count cadence it is always 1,2,3,4 not 4,3,2,1.

3. Everyone else up to that point in time shot the string starting on the left.

4. The spotters were unanimous on the P.

5. If the stage HAD been written "Starting on either end" (which it was not) then there would have been no issue.

 

Lastly and perhaps this is the most important aspect of this. We had one new shooter with us and two visitors interested in SASS. The actions of the complainant could have (and really should have) resulted in a 'Spirit of the Game' penalty. I can only wonder what the new shooter and visitors thought when they left the range.

 

Your humble servant;

 

Major George Alexander Forsyth

 

Hi Folks,

 

What bothers me most about situations like this is that they are interpreted differently.

 

Most local clubs at Cowboy Town are adamant about shooters having choices. You would be able to start on either end on almost every scenario.

 

Other clubs interpret left as target one and the order as being specifically stated in a case like this.

 

I wish we could do something to ensure that calls are uniformly made. Maybe we need a stage Convention. I wouldn't care what the Convention is, just so everyone is aware of it. I would prefer something like, "If instructions do not specifically state which end is target 1, the shooter may start on either the left or right end."

 

In the last discussion we had about this type of thing, one shooter wanted to start in the middle on a sweep. My opinion is that "A sweep may start on either end."

 

Of course, this could be solved by more descriptive scenario writing. However, the trend seems to be toward brevity. Wish I had all the answers...

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

Generally speaking, the left most target is #1. Generally. (marching ain't got nothing to do with SASS) Poor stage design to not number the targets or describe the order sufficiently so that a shooter can easily discern the stage. Obviously was poorly written if a shooter saw a hole, drove through it so to speak and the MD agreed with him. Perhaps the stage writer should get the P! :P

 

A sweep can begin ANYWHERE. I've shot 'sweeps' that begin on the middle target, the #2 or #4 target so sweeps do not HAVE to start on either end. If you write stages, be CLEAR on what you want the shooter to do. Be aware that people will game your stages and look for any way to twist an advantage out of them. If you want that and like shooters to exercise some personal iniative and have some fun or whatever, fine. Just don't write stages (like this one, apparently) that are conflicting, confusing and open things up to...look what happened?

 

Just because every other shooter did it left to right doesn't mean the shooter was wrong in this instance. It simply means he saw something no one up to that point saw.

 

'Shooter had a hissy fit'. Insufficient information here to determine of a SOG is appropriate. Likewise, there is insufficient information on EXACTLY how the stage was worded to determine of a P was appropriste or not. I call attention to the rule books which eschew 'benefit of doubt goes to the shooter' and 'don't be a hard ass.'

 

The spotters made their call. The RO made his and so on. Shooter appealed this to the MD and got what he wanted. While I don't NECESSARILY agree with the P call, I definitely do not agree with the MD's ruling. Changing the interpetation of a stage, after people have shot it one way does a disservice to those shooters and is UNFAIR unless you're going to allow ALL shooters to shoot it that way. Bad call. Perhaps ALL of us can learn a few lessons here! :D

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Miss Marshall, please tell us where the shooter used an advantage in shooting right to left. As you say, "This is such bull" :lol: :lol:

 

Evidently the shooter felt it was to his advantage or he would have shot it the same as everyone else.

 

What some of you fail to realize is when you give the "benefit of the doubt" to these types of shooters, you are actually cheating everyone else that did it correctly

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Evidently the shooter felt it was to his advantage or he would have shot it the same as everyone else.

 

What some of you fail to realize is when you give the "benefit of the doubt" to these types of shooters, you are actually cheating everyone else that did it correctly

 

What you fail to realize is that in the absence of specific instructions there is no right or wrong way. Do you feel that it is to your advantage to shoot every stage as fast as you can? Is it to your advantage to use the sights and hit every target? Of course we know the answer, but no where in the stage instructions does it state that the shooter should do this. As stated, when I shoot BP if the wind is in a certain direction and the stage instructions don't inhibit me I will shoot the stage to best advantage for ME, regardless of how the rest of the posse did it. If I approach a window moving left to right, and the stage instructions are not specific, I will engage the first target I encounter. Am I to be penalized because I am more intuitive than the rest? What if I shoot a stage first, starting on the right. Do all shooters after me receive a penalty.

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From reading the many responses, as the SASS manuals say nothing, the answer to the question is ambiguous at best. However we have to consider the following:

 

1. As a matter of convention we in the U.S. write from left to right. Therefore tgt 1 was the left most target and the shooting string should have started there.

2. In marching we always start on the left foot and when we count cadence it is always 1,2,3,4 not 4,3,2,1.

3. Everyone else up to that point in time shot the string starting on the left.

4. The spotters were unanimous on the P.

5. If the stage HAD been written "Starting on either end" (which it was not) then there would have been no issue.

 

Lastly and perhaps this is the most important aspect of this. We had one new shooter with us and two visitors interested in SASS. The actions of the complainant could have (and really should have) resulted in a 'Spirit of the Game' penalty. I can only wonder what the new shooter and visitors thought when they left the range.

 

Your humble servant;

 

Major George Alexander Forsyth

Next, time said shooter gets ready to shoot a stage, just tell him to shoot it however the hell he wants without fear of a penalty. If hes not happy with his time let him reshoot as many times as hed like, as the match directer would probaly buckle to his crying anyway.

 

I see folks that try to figure out ways to shoot the stage anyway they can besides the way its written, looking for any loophole they can exploit for whatever reason, people who do this are bags of water and vinegar(there, i cleaned it up for ya Presidio) and more times than not suck at the game.

 

If its not important to follow stage senerios as any normal person would then hell, let people shoot stages however they want.

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What you fail to realize is that in the absence of specific instructions there is no right or wrong way. Do you feel that it is to your advantage to shoot every stage as fast as you can? Is it to your advantage to use the sights and hit every target? Of course we know the answer, but no where in the stage instructions does it state that the shooter should do this. As stated, when I shoot BP if the wind is in a certain direction and the stage instructions don't inhibit me I will shoot the stage to best advantage for ME, regardless of how the rest of the posse did it. If I approach a window moving left to right, and the stage instructions are not specific, I will engage the first target I encounter. Am I to be penalized because I am more intuitive than the rest? What if I shoot a stage first, starting on the right. Do all shooters after me receive a penalty.

Agree Totally!!!

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Guess thats the reason for the change in the king james version, wouldnt want them kids to read a book with such filth.

 

:blink::wacko::blink: Suit yourself.

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OK, let's say it's 1882....you are facing a Gang of 5 bad guys..the guy on the right is obviously a skilled Gunfighter with a steely look in his eyes and rock steady :angry: ..the guy on the left is scared to Death and is shaking in his boots :unsure: ...which end would you start shooting on !!! B)

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OK, let's say it's 1882....you are facing a Gang of 5 bad guys..the guy on the right is obviously a skilled Gunfighter with a steely look in his eyes and rock steady :angry: ..the guy on the left is scared to Death and is shaking in his boots :unsure: ...which end would you start shooting on !!! B)

Being CAS aint gonna be invented for a 100 or so years, aint using mouse farts and my lifes at stake, Well ya got me, I would start on the right. But I would wait for the beep, oh ya 1882, no timers either. Guess i would wait for a horse to fart.

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Being CAS aint gonna be invented for a 100 or so years, aint using mouse farts and my lifes at stake, Well ya got me, I would start on the right. But I would wait for the beep, oh ya 1882, no timers either. Guess i would wait for a horse to fart.

Ah HA !!! This ain't 1882, it's 2012 and we are PLAYING a Competitive GAME!!! Where who wins counts, I don't care how many times I hear "I'm just here to have fun" BS it's a competition!!

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If you want them to start on the left, tell them..

 

Sometimes there is a picture, but the problem with that at local matches is that only the guy or gal reading the instructions see it..

 

Do we really need to set everything in concrete?

 

And I like to see a little left to the shooter at least once in a while.

 

And remember, it is helpful sometimes to allow folks to start on the side they prefer - moving left to right or right to left, etc.

 

I would hate to see so much added to the stage conventions. At many shoots, they now read the conventions, plus major safety rules, and the club rules.

 

If we keep adding, it could be a long morning waiting for the shoot.

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After reading this thread, it looks like a few folks need to get out more. At many matches stages are being written to allow shooters a lot more flexibility, not less. Most shooters find this more fun. Many stages give the shooter the choice of which gun to shoot when, which shooting position to shoot when, where to put long guns, more flexibility on string shooting order and target order, etc. Some will be creative and find the best way to navigate the stage, good for him or her. Shooters that move around a bit get used to exploiting what the stage description says not what might be implied. If a match director wants to minimize creativity, he needs to be explicit in the stage description.

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After reading this thread, it looks like a few folks need to get out more. At many matches stages are being written to allow shooters a lot more flexibility, not less. Most shooters find this more fun. Many stages give the shooter the choice of which gun to shoot when, which shooting position to shoot when, where to put long guns, more flexibility on string shooting order and target order, etc. Some will be creative and find the best way to navigate the stage, good for him or her. Shooters that move around a bit get used to exploiting what the stage description says not what might be implied. If a match director wants to minimize creativity, he needs to be explicit in the stage description.

+1

 

If the stage instructions don't state start on a particular side then the shooter should be entitled to decide which direction is most beneficial to them. To assume that absent instructions all sweeps will be from left to right is pretty arbitrary, perhaps left handers prefer the other direction? Or perhaps eye dominance plays a part in preference? Personally I prefer to start my sweeps on the left, I know other shooters who prefer to start on the right, and still others who choose based on the particulars of the stage. Comments about which direction we read from and which foot we start marching with have nothing to do with CAS. If the stage writer had a particular direction in mind then they should say so when writing the stage. The whole argument seems like much ado about nothing to me.

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To this cowboy, shooting string of 1,5,2,4,3 has no grey area. When we are getting to where we are told to start on Target 1, on the left is, according to this cowboy, bordering on rediculous. My call, P, next shooter.

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To this cowboy, shooting string of 1,5,2,4,3 has no grey area. When we are getting to where we are told to start on Target 1, on the left is, according to this cowboy, bordering on rediculous. My call, P, next shooter.

You still don't get it!!! #1 is the target YOU start on, should be either end!!

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So, if I can decide which target is #1, can I select # 2,3,4,& 5 also ? If not, then why not ?

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I think we all could agree that the confusion would be lessened if the stage was written either

 

Starting on either end target, engage...

Or

Starting on the left end target, engage...

 

Either way, the instructions are clearer than the original post and leads to less confusion. I feel for some lefties who point to the left and then swear that it is right :-)

 

Btw, I am not a stage writer, but have been witness to a lot of great stage writers in the past few years. And, I recently stayed in a Holiday Inn Express.

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So, if I can decide which target is #1, can I select # 2,3,4,& 5 also ? If not, then why not ?

You likely would not like a stage that says at least two shots on every rifle and pistol target then knock down the shotgun targets, from any position on the firing line. Stage and restage long guns safely.

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What part of "Start on either END" don't you understand?

 

 

OP stated "Rifle target order is 1,5,2,4,3 and repeat"

 

What part of that didn't you understand.

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You likely would not like a stage that says at least two shots on every rifle and pistol target then knock down the shotgun targets, from any position on the firing line. Stage and restage long guns safely.

 

 

That would be fine. I've shot quite a few stages at Troublemakers just like that. Not a lot of fun for spotters, but fun to plan out how to shoot.

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Miss Marshall, please tell us where the shooter used an advantage in shooting right to left. As you say, "This is such bull" :lol: :lol:

 

I'll throw that one right back at you. Do you know what the meaning of is is ???

 

Common everyday horse sense tells us that #1 target is on the left, and always has been.

 

Just another typical B.S. thread. Need to rename this the B.S. Wire. Gets worse as time goes by.

 

Unless the stage writer SPECIFICALLY stated start at either end, then left to right is the standard procedure. He didn't, and the shooter earned the P, fair and square.

 

Where in the rules does it say that, " If it isn't specifically stated, then you can do whatever you damn well want to, without regard to logic)???? Who needs a stinkin written scanario?? Just shoot it anyway you please. What's that new word? Idiocracy??

 

A disillusioned RBK

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Where in the rules does it say that, " If it isn't specifically stated, then you can do whatever you damn well want to, without regard to logic)???? Who needs a stinkin written scanario?? Just shoot it anyway you please. What's that new word? Idiocracy??

 

A disillusioned RBK

 

Same page as it says "All target are numbered starting on the left."

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If these 5 targets had been staged VERTICAL and not Horizontal, the stage instructions would have needed specific instructions as to which target was the required FIRST target.

 

WHY is it any different on 5 targets staged horizontal?

 

No specific instructions were given to specify which end (right or left) was the starting 1st target.

 

I support the MD's decision.

 

 

..........Widder

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To bad the stage description wasn't written better.

 

To bad the direction of engagement for each stage was not discussed for each stage in the walk through. Responsibility for each PM to know/ask plus responsibility of the MD or assigned Walk Through guy/gal to point these details out.

 

To bad the PM did not point out during the stage reading what is expected or allowed as far as which direction is OK to use.

 

To bad the odd ball shooter that wants to do it differently didn't ask first. I think they should get whatever the call is given them. They know there will be potential contraversy, so why not clear up the issue before shooting the stage?

 

 

To bad the shooter got ugly about it.

 

 

Right, wrong or whatever, the MD made the call as he saw it. End of story.

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As a gunfighter I probably like (read: benefit from) options more than most. Options help me eliminate cross-overs.

 

As a stage writer, I try to give many options and usually close all loopholes I want closed. However, if I write shoot 1,2,3,4,5 the diagram will be numbered 1,2,3,4,5 with #1 ALWAYS being on the left.

 

I have to agree with Grizz on this one. If the scenario reads shoot targets in the following order 1,2,3,4,5, that means left to right to me, even if the targets are not numbered on the diagram. How many times have you ever seen targets numbered 1,2,3,4,5 with 1 being on the right moving left as the numbers increase? I bet never. That tells you something.

 

I think the shooter was wrong twice and the match director was wrong twice. The shooter should have asked if either direction was an option and should have taken the P without the fit. The match director should have specified either direction if that was an option and should not have changed the call or option at that stage of the match unless that shooter was the only shooter to have shot that scenario up to that point.

 

Possum

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IMO the issue was simply poor stage writing…….If you travel around you will see different things so assuming left to right is a given without target numbers assigned to the targets is opening the door to confusion.

 

Plus if a shooter is left handed OR just prefers to start on the right he may get a slight advantage but what’s wrong with that? I go out of my way to “equalize” things rather than write stages in a way that helps the majority and hurts the minority. That said I do write stages that start on the left as well as ones that start on the right…..but it’s seem pretty straight forward to make that clear to the shooter……….not let them assume it.

 

I don’t think you have to be “lawyered up”…..just be clear simply assign numbers to your targets ….why wouldn’t you? I have seen stages written with no target numbers to purposely give the shooters the freedom to make the choices to start where they want so if a shooter came from a club like that……would they be wrong to assume you could start on either end?

 

Sorry but this should have never happened.

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If these 5 targets had been staged VERTICAL and not Horizontal, the stage instructions would have needed specific instructions as to which target was the required FIRST target.

 

WHY is it any different on 5 targets staged horizontal?

 

No specific instructions were given to specify which end (right or left) was the starting 1st target.

 

I support the MD's decision.

 

 

..........Widder

What difference would vertical make??? Start on top or bottom...shooter's choice :)

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