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Major Forsyth

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Rifle target order is

 

1,5,2,4,3 and repeat

 

Shooter goes to the line and engages the right most target first. Everywhere I've been and since I've been shooting SASS (7 years now) the left most target is number 1 unless the scenario states differently. All three spotters call a Procedural for shooting the targets out of order. Shooter complains vociferously (a nice way of saying hissy fit) and complains to the Match Director. Match Director comes to the stage and says he should have written it to be from either end. He goes over and changes the stage scenario to reflect this. The P is removed from the shooters score.

 

I've spent about 30 minutes going thru all the manuals looking for what it says about target numbering. Or is this one of those cases where if it does not specify then the shooter can make any target number 1? :wacko::blink:

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I don't find anything in the manuals about numbering of the targets, I suspect if there were it would be under Stage Conventions in the RO I manual.

 

If the written scenario specified target order by number, then I would agree that the left most target was indeed number 1, and starting on the right earned a P.

 

However if the order stated outside outside inside inside middle, then that would leave it open to start on either end.

 

If the shooter wasn't the first to shoot the stage for the match, changing the scenario was not appropriate IMO.

 

What the MD 'meant' doesn't matter, with the written scenario and well established common practice of numbering from left to right, the shooter earned a P.

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It may be time to Define target number 1 is on the left in the stage conventions.

Then this problem wouldn't have happened.

 

MD did correct the call reasonably.

But were there other shooters in other posses that got called for a P?

The benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

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This is why stage writing is such a tricky business. If I wrote the words I would have thought that it would be starting on the left. However, Unless it is stated in the text what I intended holds no wieght if the words are ambuguous. As one does this for as long as I have you experience all these traps and take pains to avoid them.Still, often what seems obvious to you is not so to someone else. You can appeal to Stage Conventions, but they too must be iron clad and well understood by all.

In our club I write the match, then I present it to the Sheriff's Posse and we review it - looking for problems of all kinds - then it is gone over at the RO walkthough just before the shoot. With this amount of scruteny most of these text-errors are caught. What I have seen time and time again is when someone writes a match, thinks it just wonderful and shows it to no one. Hence all the disasters occur during the match and people get ticked off. If the match cannot stand editing then it is not fit to shoot.

In this case the shooter had a legit gipe and the MD was right to take back the P. The tie goes to the shooter in all cases and in this one the stage was just not clear enough to remove all doubt. WW

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What the MD 'meant' doesn't matter, with the written scenario and well established common practice of numbering from left to right, the shooter earned a P.

I must agree. It is well established in the western world that (both writing and) numbering go from left to right, unless otherwise specified. Now, if the match took place in Israel or Egypt, or maybe parts of Asia, he might have a legitimate complaint.

 

If one can argue that target 1 can be somewhere other than the leftmost position (unless otherwise specified), what's to prevent him from shooting the targets from left to right and saying he thought that's how they were numbered: 1 on the left, then 5, 2, 4, and 3 on the far right?

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If the stage scenario does not specify which target is no 1 then it isn't a P, I always put left to right or right to left as well as identify the target numbers in the drawing.

 

I learned when you write a stage description you do not assume the shooter knows your intent, you write it so detailed that a politician can do it correctly!

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I must agree. It is well established in the western world that (both writing and) numbering go from left to right, unless otherwise specified. Now, if the match took place in Israel or Egypt, or maybe parts of Asia, he might have a legitimate complaint.

 

If one can argue that target 1 can be somewhere other than the leftmost position (unless otherwise specified), what's to prevent him from shooting the targets from left to right and saying he thought that's how they were numbered: 1 on the left, then 5, 2, 4, and 3 on the far right?

 

 

 

Sorry!! That doesn't fly... Drop a box full of kitchen wooden matches on the floor, then select the 1sr one for me?

 

Friendly advice for stage writers, don't say shoot P1-Pn in a xyz sweep. Just say shoot targets in a zxyz sweep starting on the left/right/or either end as you wish. Likewise, do not label the targets in the stage desription as 1,2,3,n.

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Sounds exactly like what happened today on a posse at our range. And at our range it is understood that if the targets are not drawn and numbered on the description of the stage, and the description does not state otherwise, you may start on the right or left. There is no advantage gained, usually.

 

We do this to accomodate left handed shooters and BP shooters whoi want to play the wind. I don't understand why this would matter so greatly to anyone.

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I don't believe the MD made the right call. In a situation like this, I think about what would a reasonable person think. If I ask 10 people on the street to look at a picture, of five tin cans lined up in a row, and to point to the number 1 can. Most would point to the farthest left tin can. Using this logic the shooter earned the P, no matter what was intended and not written. With that said, the MD does have the final say. I hope no procedurals were issued for the same infraction on this stage before and after this shooter.

 

My two cents,

 

Blue Wolf

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No advantage starting on left or right as #1 based on the information provided. We would have not called a P and heckled the stuffing out of the cowboy.

'Your other LEFT!'

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No advantage, no P. If match director required shooter to start on left he should have said so or at least showed which was target one. A lot of left handers would say the right target was one.

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This is such Bull! This is the United States of America! We speak English and we read and write from left to right. If you don't like it move to china or someplace that does it different. I'm sick of this crap where folks are saying that if it isn't specifically written in the stage that they can do what ever they want. That is such BULL. Lets try this, Shooter's Handbook page 1

 

The Spirit of the Game means you fully participate in what the competition asks. You do not look for ways to create an advantage out of what is or is not stated as a rule or shooting procedure. Some folks would call The Spirit of the Game nothing more than good sportsmanship. Whatever you call it, if you don’t have it, Cowboy Action Shooting™ is not your game.

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Rifle target order is

 

1,5,2,4,3 and repeat

 

Shooter goes to the line and engages the right most target first. Everywhere I've been and since I've been shooting SASS (7 years now) the left most target is number 1 unless the scenario states differently. All three spotters call a Procedural for shooting the targets out of order. Shooter complains vociferously (a nice way of saying hissy fit) and complains to the Match Director. Match Director comes to the stage and says he should have written it to be from either end. He goes over and changes the stage scenario to reflect this. The P is removed from the shooters score.

 

I've spent about 30 minutes going thru all the manuals looking for what it says about target numbering. Or is this one of those cases where if it does not specify then the shooter can make any target number 1? :wacko::blink:

If the match director says either end, case closed.

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This is such Bull! This is the United States of America! We speak English and we read and write from left to right. If you don't like it move to china or someplace that does it different. I'm sick of this crap where folks are saying that if it isn't specifically written in the stage that they can do what ever they want. That is such BULL. Lets try this, Shooter's Handbook page 1

 

The Spirit of the Game means you fully participate in what the competition asks. You do not look for ways to create an advantage out of what is or is not stated as a rule or shooting procedure. Some folks would call The Spirit of the Game nothing more than good sportsmanship. Whatever you call it, if you don’t have it, Cowboy Action Shooting™ is not your game.

OK what's the ADVANTAGE of starting a shooting string from the right instead of the left??

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Left to Right ( 1 2 3 4 5 One being on the left ) - Top to Bottom ( 1 2 3 4 5 One being on top ) - Front to Back ( 1 2 3 4 5 One being in the Front like on a front to back KD rack or at a 45 degree angle).

 

No written rules that I can find will support this, but that's the way I see things unless I'm told/read different in the stage description. I kinda figure most Lefties might agree with that being a given. Also, unless that particular shooter was the very first shooter of the day on that stage.....the MD changing the senario after others shooting it, would have been an irk for me.

 

Doing that, could make it possible for previous shooters who had a "miss" to argue that they wouldn't have missed if they started on the right side target being #1, and that they wanted a reshoot. Not saying folks would take an advantage of it, but it may be possible grounds for it.

 

Even tho, interpretaion by one may not be shared by another, IMHO, not every little detail has to spelt out and written down or drawn out. But, I guess I may have to re-consider it. It just may take more paper per stage, and time to read it out to the shooters, to accomplish satisfying everyone with it. BTW - my written senarios are fairly detailed and straight forward, leaving no doubt as to the intent of the stages I've written in the past. And all on one page.....for now.

 

edited for spelling

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This is such Bull! I'm sick of this crap where folks are saying that if it isn't specifically written in the stage that they can do what ever they want. That is such BULL.

 

You do not look for ways to create an advantage out of what is or is not stated as a rule or shooting procedure.

 

Miss Marshall, please tell us where the shooter used an advantage in shooting right to left. As you say, "This is such bull" :lol: :lol:

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"this one of those cases where if it does not specify then the shooter "

Should ask when the Stage is read or before shooting.

Not every Stage is written perfectly

 

 

I agree, not every stage is written perfectly.

 

Large percentage of Stage Writters are unaware or don't care of this detail. Or they write the stage assuming a particular starting direction they prefer. That is fine until you shoot at another club that has different personal preference of direction or they don't care but label the targets in the scenerio 1-n from left to right anyway.

 

Approximate 95% of shooters will start on the extreme left most target even if given a choice to start on the left or right side. They have been conditioned to do so.

 

Best to ask RO after he has read the scenerio. Of course, he will give you his interpatation but it could be different from the other posses. Or some of the other posses could have been allowed to shoot it starting on the other end.

 

Advantage or not? Depends on target placement, target size for 1st shot of shooting string, are you right or left handed, running to your left/right for next shooting string? All those factors plus others put together may lead you to want to start the shooting string from the right most side.

 

Not a new topic but one that comes up at nearly every match.

 

Want to not worry about it and play it safe 99% of the time? Start on the left.

 

Edit:: Reread OP... Reread Post #3 & #4. Post 3 & 4 says it best and I agree on how they said it.

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Guest diablo slim shootist

Rifle target order is

 

1,5,2,4,3 and repeat

 

Shooter goes to the line and engages the right most target first. Everywhere I've been and since I've been shooting SASS (7 years now) the left most target is number 1 unless the scenario states differently. All three spotters call a Procedural for shooting the targets out of order. Shooter complains vociferously (a nice way of saying hissy fit) and complains to the Match Director. Match Director comes to the stage and says he should have written it to be from either end. He goes over and changes the stage scenario to reflect this. The P is removed from the shooters score.

 

I've spent about 30 minutes going thru all the manuals looking for what it says about target numbering. Or is this one of those cases where if it does not specify then the shooter can make any target number 1? :wacko::blink:

Bad stage writing IMO ...Should have said"outside to inside sweep starting from either end"If the stage has a

diagram at the end of targets with the corresponding numbers then the shooter earned that "p"for not asking if

he could shoot it in reverse order.Diablo

 

I see from your picture you grew a mustache...Looks good on you! LOL

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Sounds exactly like what happened today on a posse at our range. And at our range it is understood that if the targets are not drawn and numbered on the description of the stage, and the description does not state otherwise, you may start on the right or left. There is no advantage gained, usually.

 

We do this to accomodate left handed shooters and BP shooters whoi want to play the wind. I don't understand why this would matter so greatly to anyone.

Ta Daaaa!!. MD made the right call, no P. As a stage writer I always say start on either end, and usually don't number the targets, except for front to back/back to front progessive sweeps..etc. Unless the targets are numbered and specified in the stage instructions it doesn't matter which end you start on.

I get tired of always seeing stages say "start on left" "start on left" "start on left", this is boring and usually favors the right hander. Shooters transition differently, depending on right-left hand, duelist, double duelist, crossdraw, GF, BP..etc.........shooters like options, start on either. Good Luck :)

 

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Most you folks probably don't shoot black powder. For me, given the instructions, I would see what way the wind is blowing. I want the wind to help clear the next targets, if I can and try not to obscure them with smoke if i can help that. Given the instructions, I would reasonably assume that T1 is the first outside target I chose to engage. Wind blowing left to right, I am engaging the right most target. Gives me just a little more time where at least 4 targets are not hidden.

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The match director made a decision, I say go with it and don't complain......if the scenario didn't state which target was number 1, I guess the shooter has to determine in his/her own mind which is number 1. Folks game this sport all the time.....just like all competition.

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If the targets aren't numbered in the stage directions and it doesn't say left to right then I would think you can shoot it either way.

 

Agreed.

 

Right handers have always done things backwards, like "assuming" 1 - 5 meant left to right... :)

 

Did you ever notice that most Yankees are right handers? :rolleyes:

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Did you ever notice that most Yankees are right handers? :rolleyes:

 

:lol: :lol: So, Obama is a suthner? :lol: :lol:

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This is such Bull! This is the United States of America! We speak English and we read and write from left to right. If you don't like it move to china or someplace that does it different. I'm sick of this crap where folks are saying that if it isn't specifically written in the stage that they can do what ever they want. That is such BULL. Lets try this, Shooter's Handbook page 1

 

The Spirit of the Game means you fully participate in what the competition asks. You do not look for ways to create an advantage out of what is or is not stated as a rule or shooting procedure. Some folks would call The Spirit of the Game nothing more than good sportsmanship. Whatever you call it, if you don’t have it, Cowboy Action Shooting™ is not your game.

 

Well first and foremost CAS is about having fun. I have over the years shot shotgun targets from the hip and holding my handguns upside down. While you find this offensive since all hunters shoot shotguns from the shoulder and this ain't Australia mate I find it enjoyable. But you can probably tell that I don't care about winning.

 

If someone changing the starting order when it isn't spelled out so what? If how someone else plays the game bothers you that much then maybe this isn't the game for you. I suggest you pause for a minute and reflect if you really enjoy CAS.

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I don't believe the MD made the right call. In a situation like this, I think about what would a reasonable person think. If I ask 10 people on the street to look at a picture, of five tin cans lined up in a row, and to point to the number 1 can. Most would point to the farthest left tin can. Using this logic the shooter earned the P, no matter what was intended and not written. With that said, the MD does have the final say. I hope no procedurals were issued for the same infraction on this stage before and after this shooter.

 

My two cents,

 

Blue Wolf

 

What you are proposing is mob rule. Let's say shooter shoots a clean stage but rest of the shooters don't like him. They think he is rude and arrogant and doesn't help with picking up brass enough so they call a procedural. It doesn't matter if the infraction actually occurred all the matters is the others say it did.

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