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Major Forsyth

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What bothers me most about situations like this is that they are interpreted differently...

Hi again!

 

I'd like to say one or the other side is right. However, half (or some) of the people would contest that.

 

Obviously this is done differently in different places. IMO, neither way is wrong. We just need to be specific in our scenarios to prevent inconsistent calls.

 

Sincerely,

 

Allie Mo

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Hi again!

 

I'd like to say one or the other side is right. However, half (or some) of the people would contest that.

 

Obviously this is done differently in different places. IMO, neither way is wrong. We just need to be specific in our scenarios to prevent inconsistent calls.

 

Sincerely,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

Yep... and the shooter can always ask the little question.. "Can I do it this way?"

Nuff said..

 

Rance <_<

Thinkin' I'd be on the other side.. but not the one.. both sides are correct :) but I wouldn't contest it :lol:

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If there is no reason to "assume" the targets are numbered left to right, is there any reason to "assume" they are numbered sequentially? In the original scenario, could I simply sweep the targets from left to right, on the presumption that they were actually numbered 1, 5, 2, 4, and 3 from left to right?

 

Perhaps there should be a big orange digit painted on each target.

 

Sorry!! That doesn't fly... Drop a box full of kitchen wooden matches on the floor, then select the 1sr one for me?

That is a poor comparison. In one case you have scores or hundreds of objects scattered haphazardly, piled atop one another and so forth. In the other case you have 5, or maybe 10, objects arranged in an orderly fashion so that none are obscuring the others, when viewed from the firing point.

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no p---shooter is left handed would be my guess.And for those of you that think it dosent matter which direction you go you right handers try shooting the targets right to left and moving right to left gunhandling just changed for you.

 

ps

thanks to all the stage writers out there that give us a choice on which way to shoot a stage.

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Good Grief!

 

Ever heard of a count down.....5, 4, 3, 2, 1, FIRE......Kinda silly to have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, FIRE

 

In the overall most important things in the small world of cowboy action this warrents 3 pages.........carry on

 

Hey.....how about everybody that wears black leather has no common sense

 

Wyatt(

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After looking at all the posts on this tread, I would say poorly written instructions, it could have been written "starting on the left" engage the targets if that's what the author intended or "engage the five targets as follows; outside-outside, inside-inside, center starting on the left. Without the targets being numbered on the instruction and sans the lack of specific instruction by the RO the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt. IMHO should have been written outside-outside, inside-inside, center, letting the shooter start on either end. Without that "starting on the left" phrase I would vote No P.

 

TB

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This is typical Clintonesque thinking. Do it however you wish with an argument all ready when called on it. Then make enough of a stink to imtimidate the MD into changing the stage to accomodate you. Did you have fun? Was it because of the shooting or was it because you convinced someone else that they were wrong?

English reads left to right.

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I'm left-handed and, like it or not, I live in a right-handed world. If I find myself in a gunfight, I'm not going to say "could you two switch positions?"

 

So would you suggest eliminating shooting orders? "Just shoot all the targets until they stop twitching"?

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So would you suggest eliminating shooting orders? "Just shoot all the targets until they stop twitching"?

Nothing wrong with shooting order as long as shooter has a choice of which end to start on. What difference does it make if you shoot from one end compared to the other as long as the "Order" is the same ie...Nevada sweep, progressive sweep ect.

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So would you suggest eliminating shooting orders? "Just shoot all the targets until they stop twitching"?

I don't quite understand what you're saying here, but based on your earlier post, we are on the same page. Let me clarify my own point: If the scenaro is 1, 5, 2, 4, then 3, I can't just say "well, I'm left-handed, so I'm entitled to shoot 5, 1, 4, 2 and then 3." I still should be expected to shoot the same stage as everyone else. Left-handed batters don't get to run the bases in the opposite direction, right? EDIT And yes, I know this isn't baseball <_<

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In answer to one question here...I have often seen stage diagrams where targets were numbered starting on the right and going up to the left..

 

...written 'em that way meself actually...

 

I see no reason to make ANY assumption about which target is "1"(we read left to right it's true.. but so what?) and to suggest that using the right end target as #1 then somehow means there is no order at all is plain ridiculous... 5 targets.. so it's either sequentially 1,2,3,4,5.. or 5,4,3,2,1.

 

When told to engage in the order 1,5,2,4,3 there are only 2 possible alternatives.

 

Right outer, left outer, right inner, left inner, middle

 

OR

 

Left outer, right outer, left inner, right inner, middle.

 

It isn't rocket science.

 

AND I just LOVE the example of the vertical stacked targets.. anyone care to tackle that one?

 

Stage was written without enough information... shooter protested that they were being unfairly penalised and took it to the MD (as, BTW, is their right) and the situation was clarified... Seems pretty appropriate to me.

 

As to the "hissy fit" comment... Well.. that is pretty subjective.. and for all we know the shooters protest (which again one must emphasise they were quite entitled to raise) was - for all we know - dismissed out of hand.. (and therefore not treated in accordance with the rules)

 

So.. the shooter really wasn't given enough information.. and.. similalry.. we don't have enough to judge that part of it!

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I don't quite understand what you're saying here, but based on your earlier post, we are on the same page. Let me clarify my own point: If the scenaro is 1, 5, 2, 4, then 3, I can't just say "well, I'm left-handed, so I'm entitled to shoot 5, 1, 4, 2 and then 3." I still should be expected to shoot the same stage as everyone else. Left-handed batters don't get to run the bases in the opposite direction, right? EDIT And yes, I know this isn't baseball <_<

There you go like the others who don't "get it" It wouldn't be 5, 1, 4, 2, 3 if you start on the right it will still be correct! Whatever end you start on is #1 !!!

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There you go like the others who don't "get it" It wouldn't be 5, 1, 4, 2, 3 if you start on the right it will still be correct! Whatever end you start on is #1 !!!

I "get" it, I just don't buy it. :)

 

In answer to one question here...I have often seen stage diagrams where targets were numbered starting on the right and going up to the left..

 

...written 'em that way meself actually...

I think most people would agree that, if there is a diagram showing them labeled from right to left, well then OBVIOUSLY that is how they are numbered. But unless otherwise specified...

 

... to suggest that using the right end target as #1 then somehow means there is no order at all is plain ridiculous...

It is indeed ridiculous, which is the point I was trying to make: if the shooter can just arbitrarily decide which target is target 1, then the same "logic" should apply to the other targets.

 

 

I honestly thought most of the people here were arguing this with tongue in cheek, but it seems as though things may have become a bit heated. If that be the case, I apologize for feeding the fire, and will refrain from further comment. :)

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I don't quite understand what you're saying here, but based on your earlier post, we are on the same page. Let me clarify my own point: If the scenaro is 1, 5, 2, 4, then 3, I can't just say "well, I'm left-handed, so I'm entitled to shoot 5, 1, 4, 2 and then 3." I still should be expected to shoot the same stage as everyone else. Left-handed batters don't get to run the bases in the opposite direction, right? EDIT And yes, I know this isn't baseball <_<

 

 

This is the best argument yet about shooting left to right; however, there are set rules in baseball and everyone knows that you can't run the bases backward.......if you don't state that the order is left to right then there can't be a penalty.......simple enough, no "P" no call, no argument.......

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This whole thread is :wacko::blink:

 

Stage Writer's:

If you want them to start on either end. (which I hope you do. Give shooters some choices) Just write it in.

If you don't. Just put start on the left.

 

 

 

Shooters:

If it does not say. ASK. BEFORE, you shoot it. You know. Like when they are reading the stage to you.

Just ask then so it is clear to all. You, RO, Counters, Other Shooters.

 

DONE.

 

It really is that simple.

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Rifle target order is

 

1,5,2,4,3 and repeat

 

Shooter goes to the line and engages the right most target first. Everywhere I've been and since I've been shooting SASS (7 years now) the left most target is number 1 unless the scenario states differently. All three spotters call a Procedural for shooting the targets out of order. Shooter complains vociferously (a nice way of saying hissy fit) and complains to the Match Director. Match Director comes to the stage and says he should have written it to be from either end. He goes over and changes the stage scenario to reflect this. The P is removed from the shooters score.

 

I've spent about 30 minutes going thru all the manuals looking for what it says about target numbering. Or is this one of those cases where if it does not specify then the shooter can make any target number 1? :wacko::blink:

 

Match Directors Guide:

 

Concise written stage descriptions are para- mount to convey your instructions to the shoot- ers. Stage descriptions should be specific in addressing each step in the sequence: i.e., pre- stage guns at/on ____, start with hands ____, move right, left, holster, set down, sit, stand - don’t be vague. Try and imagine every inter- pretation of your instructions – many shooters will look for alternatives within the limits of the written description that may give them an advantage. It is your responsibility to ensure the instructions are specific enough to limit the scenario to what you intended.

 

 

Note the last sentence. There are also examples of well written stages and diagrams to help make it clear to everyone exactly how a stage is to be shot. Don't assume.

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This is such Bull! This is the United States of America! We speak English and we read and write from left to right. If you don't like it move to china or someplace that does it different. I'm sick of this crap where folks are saying that if it isn't specifically written in the stage that they can do what ever they want. That is such BULL. Lets try this, Shooter's Handbook page 1

 

The Spirit of the Game means you fully participate in what the competition asks. You do not look for ways to create an advantage out of what is or is not stated as a rule or shooting procedure. Some folks would call The Spirit of the Game nothing more than good sportsmanship. Whatever you call it, if you don’t have it, Cowboy Action Shooting™ is not your game.

 

Just got back from a great two day match, so this is the first time I've had a opportunity to look at this thread. Without being argumentative or trying to cause friction, I've shot cowboy for almost ten years now and everywhere I go it seems that unless it is specified in the stage directions, you generally can start on either end when a sweep is called for. I DO however, ask whenever I visit a new range. On the next to last stage there were some tounge in cheek calls for a P on me and another shooter who is also left handed because we shot right to left on a 1,1 2, 1 2 3, 1 2 3 4 sequence. It was my best stage and the other lefty was really fast too. He's a great shooter and a close friend and we practice that sequence a lot!!

 

As to the above statement, does that mean that because I am left handed I must automaticaly take a DISADVANTAGE or be in conflict with the Spirit Of The Game?? I find that to be a ridiculous argument!!

 

I shot a big match last year where every stage was shot left to right, which meant I had to perform every stage physically backward. Because I shoot crossdraw normally, due to a handicaped right hand, I had to turn around at every transition. I've never been so uncomfortable in my life while handling guns! I asked the MD about it and he said that because of the way the range was built, and because they only had one lefty at their club, they had never noticed the problem. He apologised, and asked if I could show him some ways to be more accomodating to southpaws.

 

A little more specificity is required if you want it shot exactly one way. Otherwise you have little argument to force someone to only start on one end. MD was way right to make this call!

 

 

 

And yeah! Obummer is a furrinner!!

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I don't quite understand what you're saying here, but based on your earlier post, we are on the same page. Let me clarify my own point: If the scenaro is 1, 5, 2, 4, then 3, I can't just say "well, I'm left-handed, so I'm entitled to shoot 5, 1, 4, 2 and then 3." I still should be expected to shoot the same stage as everyone else. Left-handed batters don't get to run the bases in the opposite direction, right? EDIT And yes, I know this isn't baseball <_<

 

Actually, the righty is at the disadvantage in running the bases counter clockwise! :lol::wacko::rolleyes::lol::lol: They for once, would be the ones set out for doing it wrong!! :rolleyes::lol:

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As to the above statement, does that mean that because I am left handed I must automaticaly take a DISADVANTAGE or be in conflict with the Spirit Of The Game?? I find that to be a ridiculous argument!!

 

 

++1 Yes, obviously us left-handers are supposed to put ourselves at a disadvantage, why I have no idea but if right-handed people had to shoot what felt backwards to them as often as we do they might just see our point. Maybe they should try shooting a match where every stage they had to shoot and move from right to left the whole time and then see if they still think we deserve a P or an SOG :huh:

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I'm a right handed shooter and I say bring it on. I have no problem going right to left. I've been at many places that do switch it around. But back to the point of this thread, the shooter could have helped his self by just asking if he could start at either end. From my count, he had at least 2 chances to ask. He didn't so as I said earlier, he earned his P.

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I tried reading all of the posts from right to left and got a real headache ...but I am betting most people are reading this post from left to right as that is the only way to read anything in English.

 

But I dont mind if people want to start on the right when it is not specified...but I wish they would let the spotters know what they are doing beforehand so we would be watching the right....errrrr...the CORRECT target. With a fast shooter it might take me two or three shots to figure out where they are shooting and I might have missed a miss...but maybe that is an advantage that someone will take.

 

I am righthanded so I always start on the left to keep things in order (in my mind)...I can see how left to right would cause a disadvantage to a lefty...maybe we all should be Ambidextrous...(I would give my left arm to be Ambidextrous)

 

and oh yeah...in Baseball.... the bases are numbered in the correct order.

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Baseball is all screwed up. First you head to the right to get to first base...then you change directions and start running to the left. The whole thing is considered counterclockwise and the only time you score is when you get back to the place you started.

 

This horse has been beat to heck and back and nobody is going to change their mind.

 

For the most part, here's what I glean from what has been written:

1) The stage writer should have written clearer instructions.

2) The shooter should have asked first.

 

Here's a baseball comparison for ya: The tie goes to the runner.

 

My advice for stage writers: Write clear instructions and be the shooter's friend. It's not difficult to be the shooter's friend including left handed shooters, gunfighters and duelists. It's easy to offer target order options that are fair to all. An outside to inside sweep that starts on either end...is a classic example.

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Most you folks probably don't shoot black powder. For me, given the instructions, I would see what way the wind is blowing. I want the wind to help clear the next targets, if I can and try not to obscure them with smoke if i can help that. Given the instructions, I would reasonably assume that T1 is the first outside target I chose to engage. Wind blowing left to right, I am engaging the right most target. Gives me just a little more time where at least 4 targets are not hidden.

 

 

Agreed, hope to share some smoke with you down the road. BUT. . . this is a simple question with a simple answer. The stage directions use neither left nor right in the description. It is then the shooters choice unless there is a specific numbering of the targets that is provided to the shooters.

 

I can't tell you how rarely I look at a match description of stages, they aren't always even provided.

 

Throwing a hissy fit is just childish and unbecoming-I consider that the shooters true penalty.

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Throwing a hissy fit is just childish and unbecoming-I consider that the shooters true penalty.

 

In this case we do not know the definition of a hissy fit. Did the shooter merely ask to challenge the call or did he get upset to the point of being threatening or belligerent? Some folks think if the shooter merely disagreed with the spotters and asked for a higher level ruling, he is throwing a hissy fit. Remember it is up to the TO to determine if a P is earned, in the end based on what he saw and what the spotters saw. TO does not have to listen to the spotters on anything except for hits and misses. Many times the TO is in the best position to make the call on other penalties. Seen TO rule no call many times even when all three spotters called for a non hit/miss penalty. That is why the rules are written the way they are. In this case we also know the match director intended the stage to be shot in either direction since he said so.

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Once I had the pleasure of visiting the famous FBI Wheel House in Quantico VA. They were kind enough to give me a tour of the huge shooting/training house where they have a rail car of doors and windows a fully suspended airplane fusilage complete with seats, replaceable doors to practice entry, etc.

 

We were walking into a shooting room where they had pop up targets (hostage, good guys, bad guys, etc.) the Director asked me, "Which do you shoot first?" on a three target pop up. I answered, "the one in the middle?"

 

"NO!" He barked. "You shoot the first threat." which would have been the target on the right. Makes sense to me now that I'm shooting CAS.

 

Maybe it's not a lot of time, but shooting the first target you can see if the stage instructions allow is good practice for the real world and saves time as well.

 

I always ask because as a 2x duelist shooter it makes a difference to me if I can shoot the right gun 54321 and the left gun 12345 especially if I'm moving right. Probably doesn't make a hoot to Tbone, but I doubt that's the .5 that's going to get me the 5 seconds I need! :lol:

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