Anvil Al #59168 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 If a shooter stages his shotgun in the wrong location, he can restage it on the clock to the correct position then grab from there and reshoot it. If shooter has a squib in one pistol he can empty the other after shootin it and reload to save the squib potential misses. Yep. Because that is the SHOTGUN he brought with him. Not shotgunS. That S makes a big difference. As in one. Or more than one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 At clubs around here, yes they do. Even for clubs that don't do that at the loading table, they do check it at the unloading table, hence my edit in the post above, that shooer did not show that shotgun clear at the unloading table. Grizz I have a question. So if the guy grabbed the shotgun went overto the loading table then proceeded to have the officer clear /check the weapon, shot. Then took all guns to the unloading table would that make it ok. I'm not trying to be a pain the reason I ask is because at my second match I shot th loaner rifle I was using broke before I fired a shot. The to took the rifle and had his daughter bring me his person rifle loaded and I finished the stage. Should I have dq'd myself for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Evil - If that happened before the first shot went down range for you for that stage, then you basically got to restart. Most times the process would that you would take all guns to the unloading table, unload, then go back to the loading table and load up. Had that happen to me. That not only allows you to load the gun you are shooting, but also get your brain back into the stage after the problem. At a monthly shoot, things are more relaxed and doing something like you said wouldn't be a major disruption, or safety issue as it sounds like the TO was overseeing it all and nobody was running. But still, if the rifle had been overloaded, the penalty would have been on you. I guess I see the loading table, firing line, and unloading table as a closed sequence. Introducing a firearm to the firing line that didn't come from the loading table with the shooter isn't the normal practice. As to if it as allowable or not, you've read my opinion above, but I look forward to PWBs take on the question. Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Page 21, Shooters Handbook, talks about the responsibilities of the 'Shooter' in completing the course of fire, etc..... .....and there is that one itsy, bitsy word in there that says; "Unassisted". Based on my understanding of those guidelines, I would call misses on those SG targets. And now we wait for PWB to finish that steak and shimp dinner to straighten us all out! ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Evil - If that happened before the first shot went down range for you for that stage, then you basically got to restart. Most times the process would that you would take all guns to the unloading table, unload, then go back to the loading table and load up. Had that happen to me. That not only allows you to load the gun you are shooting, but also get your brain back into the stage after the problem. At a monthly shoot, things are more relaxed and doing something like you said wouldn't be a major disruption, or safety issue as it sounds like the TO was overseeing it all and nobody was running. But still, if the rifle had been overloaded, the penalty would have been on you. I guess I see the loading table, firing line, and unloading table as a closed sequence. Introducing a firearm to the firing line that didn't come from the loading table with the shooter isn't the normal practice. As to if it as allowable or not, you've read my opinion above, but I look forward to PWBs take on the question. Grizz Thanks grizz sorry for asking a dumb question. Personally if that had happen to me id say thank you to the guy offering the shotgun but politely decline. Take the misses. Then after all cleared try to figured out what went wrong with my shotgun. But that's more because I don't want to risk a break or damage anybody's guns. My guns are not high dollar or physically good looking so I don't get too stressed if they are scratched. But I see a bunch of truely beautiful works of art on the line and I dang sure don't want to ruin anyones baby! Evil dogooder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted December 11, 2011 Author Share Posted December 11, 2011 Widder, the "unassisted" you are referring to pertains to staging your long guns in the wrong place then retrieving them "unassisted" to finish the stage. At least that is my take on it. Lots of good answers so far, even tho not all of em are in agreement with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Page 21, Shooters Handbook, talks about the responsibilities of the 'Shooter' in completing the course of fire, etc..........and there is that one itsy, bitsy word in there that says; "Unassisted". Based on my understanding of those guidelines, I would call misses on those SG targets. And now we wait for PWB to finish that steak and shimp dinner to straighten us all out! ..........Widder And here we have the conundrum (sp?): The main objective of the Chief Range Officer is to assist the competitor safely through a courseof fire and be an authority in all areas of gun safety, any time, any place. Range Officer's Motto: THE PURPOSE OF THE RANGE OFFICER IS TO SAFELY ASSIST THE SHOOTER THROUGH THE COURSE OF FIRE. Stating in further detail: As a Range Officer, you are there to assist the shooter. You will notice the word "penalize"doesn't appear anywhere, but the word "assist" does. This is not to say you won't be called upon to assess penalties when they are appropriate, but it is NOT your first priority. You are there to prevent safety violations before they occur. So, I have to ask, if in a situation where a solution to a shooter's dilemna presents itself, outside the "perceived" guidelines established by the stage instructions and outside your experience as a TO, yet no safety rules are being broken... and you as a TO (or Chief Range Officer for the stage), allow the shooter to proceed with this highly unprecedented act, how do you in good conscience then turn around and penalize said shooter, not only for the added time you allowed to be added to the timer, but then counting any shots fired from that time forward as misses? Gosh, if ANYTHING smacks of "unsportsmanlike" conduct, that be it. (If y'all note in the OP, the shooter offering the shotgun has "cleared" the unloading table, which implies someone has established that his firearms are "clear"). Now, this ain't right either, but dog gone if I ain't seen a TO bump into a shooter, disrupting them, and offering a reshoot due to RO interference... Why, that's just so gosh-darned unfair as to be tantamount to insurrection against the whole dern concept of "abidin' by the rules." Maybe I'm excessively easy-going... I don't see where allowing the shooter to use a backup shotgun in this type of instance places him further ahead in the quest for the Caddy at the end of the match. Especially as in Creeker's scenario the shooter don't have run all God's green earth to collect it. It strikes me as only one step removed from telling a shooter that if his shotgun happens to break apart (as I've seen side-x-sides do), when he breaks it open, you'd tell the shooter their stage is done... they cannot put it back together again. (By the way, Brazos, have you ever gotten that darn thing fixed right)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Shooter on the last stage (shooting clean at this point) shoots his revolvers clean, grabs rifle and blast 10 hits with it. Picks up shotgun and shoves two shells in and pulls the trigger and nothing happens. "Gun broke dang it," shooter utters out loud. SHooter just clearing the unloading table notices the confusion and hears shooter fussing bout his gun. To keep the cleanmatch going, shooter at unloading table hands shooter the shotgun to finish the stage clean. What say ye wire lawyers??????? So, what we have here is a situation. A shooter has a mafl'd firearm, and someone loans him theirs in mid shoot. I'd say that poor cowboy is probably not going to win the Cadillac today. Some folks want to MDQ or SDQ it, cause it's not allowed? Didn't find that rule. Wasn't safe . . OP didn't describe any safety infractions, so that's not on my radar scope . . It strikes me that this GAME, which we play for fun, is being taken too seriously by too many folks. Not everyone wants to see a bunch of Stepford wives all following some same old 10,10 + 4 song and dance. As long as safety isn't being put at risk, and as long as no one is getting an unfair competitive advantage, folks need to learn to laugh and hoo-rah the guy, and have a bloody good time - This is a game . . . or at least it will be until too many bunkhouse lawyers strangle it to death. And some guys sure do want to do just that . . . . Shadow Catcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Montana, SASS #23907 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Clean. First of all, I wouldn't do it. But, if I were to and heard the person at the unloading table offer, then I would have them ground the shotgun on the unloading table, I would retrieve it, properly stage it, then pick it up and finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 As long as safety isn't being put at risk, and as long as no one is getting an unfair competitive advantage, folks need to learn to laugh and hoo-rah the guy, and have a bloody good time - This is a game . . . or at least it will be until too many bunkhouse lawyers strangle it to death. And some guys sure do want to do just that . . . . Shadow Catcher Yeah.... as long as.... and a lot of us would like to keep it that way. Your good time isn't worth having to deal with running guns around behind the firing line to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Yeah.... as long as.... and a lot of us would like to keep it that way. Your good time isn't worth having to deal with running guns around behind the firing line to me. So does that mean we can't move our guns from our carts to and from loading/unloading tables? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 So does that mean we can't move our guns from our carts to and from loading/unloading tables? At any club that I'd care to shoot at there are specific conventions that apply to that as well. Heck, do what you want- just let me have the timer. Be sure to bring your $50 and some Tums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusty Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 I guess I'd be standing next to Matthew Duncan on this one. No advantage; no call. Plus, just think about the after shoot ribbing that will surely come his way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted December 11, 2011 Author Share Posted December 11, 2011 Well folks, there has been lots of opinions and reasoning in answer to the question. Last count I had was 11 saying it was legal and 5 going the not allowed route, while one abstained waiting on the OFFICIAL answer. Just goes to show all the differing opinions that we have, which is good. Rules are made to be interpreted, and we as humans we aren't going to get the same meaning as the next person from a stated set of words. Keep up the comments and maybe soon PWB will get in to tell what the action would be in legalspeak if this were to happen and get the attention of match officials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 At any club that I'd care to shoot at there are specific conventions that apply to that as well. Heck, do what you want- just let me have the timer. Be sure to bring your $50 and some Tums. What would those conventions be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Every one of ya that's arguing that, "It ain't in the rule book" knows that what happened in the OP isn't right... and shouldn't be allowed. Seems to be the usual crowd too. Common sense can be hard to wrap your head around when you're not familiar with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Every one of ya that's arguing that, "It ain't in the rule book" knows that what happened in the OP isn't right... and shouldn't be allowed. Seems to be the usual crowd too. Common sense can be hard to wrap your head around when you're not familiar with it. I do so tire of the "Usual Crowd" making up rules that don't exist and attempting to legislate after the fact by claiming something just "isn't right". There are things that are legal and those that are not. When you agree to abide by the rules of the game, you use those guidelines to make your calls. You don't throw up the red herring of "common sense" to obscure the fact that you're trying to make up your own rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 So does that mean we can't move our guns from our carts to and from loading/unloading tables? Apparently it means you can only do what he feels he's in the mood to deal with, whether it's safe or not. After all - someone might be having a good time . . . and it might not be him . . . SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 When you agree to abide by the rules of the game, you use those guidelines to make your calls. Howdy Creeker. Exactly correct! And personally, it wouldn't ruffle any of my feathers if PWB tells us that its permissable to do this while on the firing line. But, it was that particular word 'unassisted' in those guidelines that I stated earlier that makes me think it might not be allowed. Just my .02 while we're all sitting around the lunch table small talkin a very good 'what would you call' situation. Best regards ..........Widder ("Walkin in a Widder Wonderland") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 I do so tire of the "Usual Crowd" making up rules that don't exist and attempting to legislate after the fact by claiming something just "isn't right". There are things that are legal and those that are not. When you agree to abide by the rules of the game, you use those guidelines to make your calls. You don't throw up the red herring of "common sense" to obscure the fact that you're trying to make up your own rules. So if the stage instructions says SHOTGUN (as in one) and you use two. How is that following stage instructions??? Seems by saying you can use SHOTGUNS. When they say SHOTGUN. That would be making up your own rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 So if the stage instructions says SHOTGUN (as in one) and you use two. How is that following stage instructions??? Seems by saying you can use SHOTGUNS. When they say SHOTGUN. That would be making up your own rules. If the stage instructions say "5 each from pistols" (as in two) and you use one and reload it - how is that following the stage instructions? SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 So if the stage instructions says SHOTGUN (as in one) and you use two. How is that following stage instructions??? Seems by saying you can use SHOTGUNS. When they say SHOTGUN. That would be making up your own rules. So if stage instructions say 10 pistol, then do you have to reload the one pistol to shoot 10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 If the stage instructions say "5 each from pistols" (as in two) and you use one and reload it - how is that following the stage instructions? SC You can do that clearly under the rules and it happens especially if one pistol has a malfunction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 From the Shooters handbook page 21 Failure to stage guns or ammunition at the designated position(s)/location(s) is the fault ofthe competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation, unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under time. Since shooter picked up the SG it had to be staged. The first SG might have been staged correctly but the 2nd SG was NOT! Therefore a P is to be assessed. And possibly Plus the misses that would have been fired by that SG. There is one other problem and that is that the 2nd SG was not brought into the stage via the loading table. And that would be called a SDQ from RO1 manual page 26. Failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures As normal all opinions expressed on this wire are subject to rulings by the PWB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Does this all sound right? The shooter should make his holstered pistols safe on the line, retrieve another shotgun, next go to the loading table, then wait for the TO to call the shooter to the line, next stage the shotgun as directions read, then reholster the pistols if the stage description requires it, lastly retrieve shotgun and finish the stage. That sounds Like it would follow all the rules? A lot of work for a clean match pin!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Have any of you noticed something odd about this thread? If the answer was obvious, we'd have heard from PWB by now. My presumption is that he is discussing this with the ROC. I will jump in and see if I am wrong based on a purely grammatical view. Staging instructions, as Al wrote, say Shotgun; not Shotgun(s), which indicates more than one may be used. Even with that, we are told to "stage" it, not go get one from off the line later. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 This will be interesting.. It is illegal to accept shotgun shells, but you can accept a shotgun??? We'll see. I just hope this doesn't add a few more pages of rules!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 This will be interesting.. It is illegal to accept shotgun shells, but you can accept a shotgun??? We'll see. I just hope this doesn't add a few more pages of rules!! If we really have to state the obvious, How about: "Only those guns required by staging instructions may be used during a stage. Replacing malfunctioning guns with "spares" while on the clock shall not be allowed.". Seems like relatively few electrons inconvenienced to me? The other OBVIOUS thing brought up in this thread ought to be "A shooter may not leave the firing line to retrieve or replace malfunctioning or forgotten items while on the clock." (And yes, I HAVE heard about a feller who shall remain nameless (initials are Jake Mountain) blowing up a perfectly good State match by forgetting his entire SG belt. He reached for a shell, nobody home. He took the misses.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 H*&^. I am going to start bring my whole safe with me. What the heck. Stage two rifles and two SG's on every stage. Just in case. Then I will always have them ready. What ever it takes to make sure I feel warm and fuzzy to get that clean match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 There are things that are legal and those that are not. The rules are set in stone. When you agree to abide by the rules of the game, you use those guidelines to make your calls. The rules are not not set in stone. Make up your mind. You don't throw up the red herring of "common sense" to obscure the fact that you're trying to make up your own rules. Red herring? Are you really going to argue that it's ok for someone to hand the shooter a shotgun to finish the stage when you know that it's not ok to hand a shooter shotgun shells? Just because it's not written down in black & white in the rule book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camille Eonich SASS # 48444 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 So now I can just carry my guns to the line and stage them then have someone stand behind me and hand theirs to me as I need them? Oh really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueno del Diablo, SASS#22364L Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Kind of have two outlooks on this. First is, O.K., not a big deal at a monthly and the guy is happy getting a clean match. Looking at it from a strictly competitive point of view I have a different take. Generally, a solution to a problem has to be universally available to everyone in the competition. Since we have categories that restrict the type of shotgun rather severely (ie, hammered double or lever actions in CC) you can argue that a CC shooter does not have the same access to a spare shotgun from the peanut gallery as other shooters. If he completes the stage with a borrowed pump he draws a penalty for shooting out of category. Same goes for BP categories. Who's going to give me a loaner, in category or not, and let me put BP thru it so I can complete a stage?? Guarantee you there will be a lot of people looking up at the sky or kicking rocks around. Without equal access to the tools we don't have a fair competition. Guess we need to have pit crews now. Fastest turnaround time with a spare gun wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Whiskers Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 I gave my opinion earlier in this post.At a state and above match I can see where doing this would not be allowed.BUT,at a local match this shooter just wants a clean match and by getting a CLEARED and CHECKED shotgun from the ULT would allow him/her to accomplish the clean match.His/her advantage????Let's see...it takes the shooter 5-10 seconds to realize the shotgun is busted....takes the shooter showing SPORTMANSHIP by offering another; 5 or 10 seconds to see what's happening and another 5 to 10+ seconds to SAFELY bring the CLEARED and CHECKED shotun from the ULT to the shooter.So,this time has added at the minimum 15 seconds and probably more realistically closer to 30+ seconds to do the handoff.That time alone is an excellent stage for me and a mediocre time for a lot of shooters.So where's the advantage?I don't see it.As far as I'm concerned clean matches are not that easy to come by and this is a GAME,not a profession,and I'd be inclined to present the donor with a Spirit Of The GAME certificate for his generosity for helping preserve what may have been the shooters 1st clean match.BUT,what do I know...I do this GAME for the fun of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 ...The other OBVIOUS thing brought up in this thread ought to be "A shooter may not leave the firing line to retrieve or replace malfunctioning or forgotten items while on the clock."... Well cwap! I remember a Plainsman event, where I killed the Texas Star (SG) and rifle targets and ran downrange to engage the rifle targets with my pistols. When I got there, whoa! I realized they were still on the loading table. So, I ran back uprange and got them, ran back downrange and shot them. No additional guns used. I wasn't running up range with guns... When I ran back downrange, they were holstered. Not legal? I honestly think leaving one's guns on the LT is a bit different than borrowing one or replacing a broken gun mid-stage. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Good point, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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