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Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880

Agenda Item #2, you have got to be kidding me!

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I'm with Buckaroo Bubba and others on this. For my ownself, I'd rather be beat by the younger good guys than a bunch of OF's. That's one of the reasons that I shoot Gunfighter. They don't offer much Senior Gunfighter around here.

 

As I recall, the reason that the whole age category thing started was that the older shooters said they couldn't compete with the younger faster shooters. The young guys have quicker reflexes and better eyesight. They can also move much faster if there is actually "action" on the stage. A young guy that hasn't spent much time practicing though, probably is not going to beat one of the OF's who has years of experience and practice.

 

There is always someone coming up who is younger and faster though!

 

I don't see any reason to complicate something that's not broke.

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I theenk I weel just shoot in the señor category!

 

 

eGG

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What's "Sad" is this statement:

 

"If folks can't see whats wrong with that whether legal or not then there is no need to debate about it any further"

 

You're stating that those that hold a differing opinion don't understand that Cherry Picking is wrong...of course we do, we just don't think that it's such a problem as to require a new category structure.

 

And why in the heck are you referring to me as "Sport". That's pretty darn condesending...what did I ever do to you to deserve that Duece? Was the Monster soda that I gave you at Comin'at'cha that warm that it pissed ya off?

 

:mellow:

 

Oh, please man. We have exchanged many friendly pm's as well as personal conversations at matches.What about that video I made for ya when you were on here asking about crossdraw transistions with a SxS? I'll be honest I knew "sport" would get your goat. As I have said many times, it's a personal thing. I am not going to change how I feel on this issue. My end debate statement was for myself. Isn't that what we are doing here. Pretty much just talking to ourselves. I understand why folks don't want this to change,but I just wish you could admit that what I'm talking about goes on often, I watch it all year long. I support and appreciate the senior plus categories and believe there is a place for them. As I have said several times before, I do not believe this will pass. It won't change a thing for me. But what it will do and already has done is make folks more aware and they will most likely see the "cherry picking" that I refer to. So Phantom I am sorry about the "sport" comment, I felt that your "sad" comment was a personal attack on me simply because I was expressing my views. Lets move on. Lets talk about the SASS circle of safety.............just kidding.

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Oh, please man. We have exchanged many friendly pm's as well as personal conversations at matches.What about that video I made for ya when you were on here asking about crossdraw transistions with a SxS? I'll be honest I knew "sport" would get your goat. As I have said many times, it's a personal thing. I am not going to change how I feel on this issue. My end debate statement was for myself. Isn't that what we are doing here. Pretty much just talking to ourselves. I understand why folks don't want this to change,but I just wish you could admit that what I'm talking about goes on often, I watch it all year long. I support and appreciate the senior plus categories and believe there is a place for them. As I have said several times before, I do not believe this will pass. It won't change a thing for me. But what it will do and already has done is make folks more aware and they will most likely see the "cherry picking" that I refer to. So Phantom I am sorry about the "sport" comment, I felt that your "sad" comment was a personal attack on me simply because I was expressing my views. Lets move on. Lets talk about the SASS circle of safety.............just kidding.

 

Yes, you've been very kind with your help to me and others...and yes, Cherry Picking goes on and is just not right. I've seen it happen all my life in CAS. I do think it can be controlled by the MD's. Monthly Cherry Pickers are pathetic 'cuz who cares about winning a monthly. I choose to go down to Cowboy at some monthlies often cuz Waterloo pretty much has nobody to keep him honest...not that I do that very well...but it's fun to occassionally beat him. He knows I'm doin it and he has fun with it.

 

My sincere apologies for using the word "Sad". Didn't mean it to come accross as personal, but I can see now how it would.

 

Yes, this issue hits home with me because I do jump around. Honestly, I do if for reasons other then trying to get a stoopid plaque or buckle. I have fun doing it...sometimes it makes me feel young being able to play with the younger crowds...and yes, overall it the focus, but being in the same category does add a bit of anxiety to the other folks...and that's an element of competition.

 

So again, sorry for the "sad" comment...it was a poor choice of words.

 

Phantom

:FlagAm:

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Yes, you've been very kind with your help to me and others...and yes, Cherry Picking goes on and is just not right. I've seen it happen all my life in CAS. I do think it can be controlled by the MD's. Monthly Cherry Pickers are pathetic 'cuz who cares about winning a monthly. I choose to go down to Cowboy at some monthlies often cuz Waterloo pretty much has nobody to keep him honest...not that I do that very well...but it's fun to occassionally beat him. He knows I'm doin it and he has fun with it.

 

My sincere apologies for using the word "Sad". Didn't mean it to come accross as personal, but I can see now how it would.

 

Yes, this issue hits home with me because I do jump around. Honestly, I do if for reasons other then trying to get a stoopid plaque or buckle. I have fun doing it...sometimes it makes me feel young being able to play with the younger crowds...and yes, overall it the focus, but being in the same category does add a bit of anxiety to the other folks...and that's an element of competition.

 

So again, sorry for the "sad" comment...it was a poor choice of words.

 

Phantom

:FlagAm:

 

I'm glad you boys kissed and made up. :wub::lol:

 

 

Stan - who wishes Phantom would come to the Last Stand (my last one as part of the committee) and shoot Cowboy with DEUCE!

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Why was the Modern category done away with? No advantage over traditionally sighted pistols.

 

Yet all of these age based categories assumes that someones age affords him an advantage, or disadvantage, over someone whose age is five years different? Yeah... right. In this thread we've all agreed that that assumption is false.

 

Age based categories as it is now needs to go away.

 

I could agree with Junior (< 16), Cowboy/Girl (16-65) and Senior (> 65), but that's it. The 5 & 10 year age breaks we have now is ludicrous.

 

It should be obvious, but I'll go ahead and say it anyway... I don't support the Tee ball, feel good, everyone gets an award mentality that begat us the idiotic age brackets we have now and, in fact, encourages "cherry picking".

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Why was the Modern category done away with? No advantage over traditionally sighted pistols.

 

Yet all of these age based categories assumes that someones age affords him an advantage, or disadvantage, over someone whose age is five years different? Yeah... right. In this thread we've all agreed that that assumption is false.

 

Age based categories as it is now needs to go away.

 

I could agree with Junior (< 16), Cowboy/Girl (16-65) and Senior (> 65), but that's it. The 5 & 10 year age breaks we have now is ludicrous.

 

It should be obvious, but I'll go ahead and say it anyway... I don't support the Tee ball, feel good, everyone gets an award mentality that begat us the idiotic age brackets we have now and, in fact, encourages "cherry picking".

 

WOW..............sure glad you said that and not me :D

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I'm glad you boys kissed and made up. :wub::lol:

 

 

Stan - who wishes Phantom would come to the Last Stand (my last one as part of the committee) and shoot Cowboy with DEUCE!

 

That'll be hard since I'm shooting duelist.

 

 

 

 

NOT

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Oh boy - oh boy...

 

if some of you guys dont have a problem - you sure try to create one ....!

 

There are a lot more things in the SASS Rulebook that need to be thought about - how about getting involved there ??

 

This current discussion is nothing more than searching for hairs an St. Peters Dom = get it ??

 

AT

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Why was the Modern category done away with? No advantage over traditionally sighted pistols.

 

Yet all of these age based categories assumes that someones age affords him an advantage, or disadvantage, over someone whose age is five years different? Yeah... right. In this thread we've all agreed that that assumption is false.

 

Age based categories as it is now needs to go away.

 

I could agree with Junior (< 16), Cowboy/Girl (16-65) and Senior (> 65), but that's it. The 5 & 10 year age breaks we have now is ludicrous.

 

It should be obvious, but I'll go ahead and say it anyway... I don't support the Tee ball, feel good, everyone gets an award mentality that begat us the idiotic age brackets we have now and, in fact, encourages "cherry picking".

 

Oh PHOOEY!

Modern went away because something had to give to restructure to the current age-based system.

 

You won't convince me that those big, honking adjustable sights aren't an advantage compared to some other revolvers...like thost stingy-sighted open tops...

 

Neither will you convince me that a skinny twenty-something kid doesn't have an advantage over a somewhat tubby middle-ager. Five years? ten years or twenty, you gots to draw the line somewhere's and there's ALWAYS, no matter how you slide it, going to be a year difference between one group and another.

 

Cherry-picking doesn't just happen with age-based catagories. I've seen the same thing happen when a shooter, who shoots say, duelist notices who's shooting FCD and jumps over. (or vice versa) Seen the same thing in CC, WB and any other catagory you can think of. Doesn't always work! And if it does, ya still BEAT the competition fair n square!

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Who is the shooter that is guaranteed, simply by entering a category, that he/she will win, place, or show? With the exception of a 1, 2, or 3 person category the answer is none, nada, no one. The one guarantee in any contest is that there are no guarantees. For this reason alone, "cherry picking" as some wish to name it, is truly a non-issue. In every SASS contest I've participated in or observed or read about since August 1998 has shown that some good shooters always make mistakes, and some average shooters shoot above their average ability, and there is always some unknown shooter that shoots lights out. Truly, the past history of a shooter may appear to make him a perceived "favorite" to win or a likely candidate to lose, but that is why we wait till the scores are posted to hand out the awards. The favorite doesn't always win!

 

In the spirit of pure competition I encourage all shooters to pick the category they believe they have the best opportunity for winning. Or, pick the category they want to shoot for whatever reason they choose. The reason a person chooses a category is his alone even If that's based on a perception that the shooters already registered in that category aren't any good, then so be it. If they're that egotistical then my attitude is "Prove" it. But, don't whine about sour grapes if it doesn't work out the way you think it will. If you get beat by a shooter that you think isn't as good as you then you better smile, pat him on the back, and sing his praises.

 

I'm sure I speak for all the Jedi Gunfighters when I extend an open invitation to one and all of any age or gender to "cherry pick" the Gunfighter category! I've lost many more matches in the last 13 years than I've won. Heck at one point or another I've lost to about every person that has posted on this thread! My low of all lows was Winter Range 2011, but my high of all highs was EOT of 2011. Some of you, like my good pard, Deuce Stevens can whip me in Gunfighter simply because of his shotgun and rifle, but I hold no ill will if he wishes to "cherry pick" the Gunfighter category. Likewise, I'm not willing to concede the outcome either!

 

It seems to me that if a person really objects to someone picking cherries from the greener grass on the other side of the fence, then just beat them or root for them to lose.

 

The contest has not been created that the outcome is decided in advance.

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I'm sure I speak for all the Jedi Gunfighters when I extend an open invitation to one and all of any age or gender to "cherry pick" the Gunfighter category! I've lost many more matches in the last 13 years than I've won. Heck at one point or another I've lost to about every person that has posted on this thread! My low of all lows was Winter Range 2011, but my high of all highs was EOT of 2011. Some of you, like my good pard, Deuce Stevens can whip me in Gunfighter simply because of his shotgun and rifle, but I hold no ill will if he wishes to "cherry pick" the Gunfighter category. Likewise, I'm not willing to concede the outcome either!

 

 

 

You got that right Max.

I turned 60 back in March. Six months later, I go to GOA and wanta shoot GF or Sr.GF.

 

Sooooo, do I shoot GF and go up against Lassiter, Max, Bison Bud, Kid Ziggy, and a host of other good GF......OR, do I go for Sr. GF and deal with Bad River Marty,Cripple Creek Kid, Korupt Karl, Manatee, etc....

 

No matter which choice I make, I'm lookin as some of THE BEST GFer's in the land.

 

That's how it is in alot of categories. But eh, thats what makes it soooooooo goooooood!

 

 

..........Widder

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Who is the shooter that is guaranteed, simply by entering a category, that he/she will win, place, or show? With the exception of a 1, 2, or 3 person category the answer is none, nada, no one. The one guarantee in any contest is that there are no guarantees. For this reason alone, "cherry picking" as some wish to name it, is truly a non-issue. In every SASS contest I've participated in or observed or read about since August 1998 has shown that some good shooters always make mistakes, and some average shooters shoot above their average ability, and there is always some unknown shooter that shoots lights out. Truly, the past history of a shooter may appear to make him a perceived "favorite" to win or a likely candidate to lose, but that is why we wait till the scores are posted to hand out the awards. The favorite doesn't always win!

 

In the spirit of pure competition I encourage all shooters to pick the category they believe they have the best opportunity for winning. Or, pick the category they want to shoot for whatever reason they choose. The reason a person chooses a category is his alone even If that's based on a perception that the shooters already registered in that category aren't any good, then so be it. If they're that egotistical then my attitude is "Prove" it. But, don't whine about sour grapes if it doesn't work out the way you think it will. If you get beat by a shooter that you think isn't as good as you then you better smile, pat him on the back, and sing his praises.

 

I'm sure I speak for all the Jedi Gunfighters when I extend an open invitation to one and all of any age or gender to "cherry pick" the Gunfighter category! I've lost many more matches in the last 13 years than I've won. Heck at one point or another I've lost to about every person that has posted on this thread! My low of all lows was Winter Range 2011, but my high of all highs was EOT of 2011. Some of you, like my good pard, Deuce Stevens can whip me in Gunfighter simply because of his shotgun and rifle, but I hold no ill will if he wishes to "cherry pick" the Gunfighter category. Likewise, I'm not willing to concede the outcome either!

 

It seems to me that if a person really objects to someone picking cherries from the greener grass on the other side of the fence, then just beat them or root for them to lose.

 

The contest has not been created that the outcome is decided in advance.

 

You and WH be OK with allowing any age base catagory, or shooting style to choose any catagory out there if they so choose? :lol:

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Max; You always amaze me at how well you dissect an issue and bring it to a practical conclusion.....and Widder, I agree that when you mention Max, Lassiter, Marty and Creek that you have some top GFer's, but naming me in that mix, while it is complimentary, I cannot be included at that level...thanks for the thought.

 

KK

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Seems to me the age categories should be just that, your age. If you want to change to a different category there are plenty to choose from, just don't choose a different age category.

My two cents,

Barry Sloe

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The contest has not been created that the outcome is decided in advance.

 

 

No matter which choice I make, I'm lookin at some of THE BEST GFer's in the land.

 

I'm with Max and Widder.

When I meet the shooter that can come over and guarantee cherry pick the Gunfighter category, I will shake his hand.

Until that day, well, let's dance.

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I'm with Max and Widder.

When I meet the shooter that can come over and guarantee cherry pick the Gunfighter category, I will shake his hand.

Until that day, well, let's dance.

 

 

Read Post #82

 

I shouldn't have posted this and will try harder the next time not to.

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I'm with Max and Widder.

When I meet the shooter that can come over and guarantee cherry pick the Gunfighter category, I will shake his hand.

Until that day, well, let's dance.

 

I completely understand that concept. I also understand the desire for there not to be any rule changes. But knowing the integrity of Widder,Max,and Creeker I don't believe you guys have seen the abuse of the rule in it's ugliest form. Do a little research of match scores and you will see what I'm talking about. No, not every match, but a lot of matches. I already have wasted enough energy on a agenda item that doesn't have a snowballs chance of passing. I'm also not a literary scholar and have a hard time putting what I mean to say into typed word. So see you boys on the range.

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I completely understand that concept. I also understand the desire for there not to be any rule changes. But knowing the integrity of Widder,Max,and Creeker I don't believe you guys have seen the abuse of the rule in it's ugliest form. Do a little research of match scores and you will see what I'm talking about. No, not every match, but a lot of matches. I already have wasted enough energy on a agenda item that doesn't have a snowballs chance of passing. I'm also not a literary scholar and have a hard time putting what I mean to say into typed word. So see you boys on the range.

 

 

Deuce,

I don't know that any energy is "Wasted" when well meaning people discuss or debate a topic.

I deeply respect your opinion (and that of many others on this thread), so when your view of a topic is different than mine, I always want to explore that reasoning to see if the basis for my belief is flawed.

I have seen category jumping, but more often so friends did not have to shoot against each other (or conversely, so friends could shoot against each other) than to assure someone of a win.

I have never recognized it as being abused to the point that we require a new rule, but I will admit to being dense or just plain blind from time to time.

I appreciate that we have this forum to waste our energies.

Even taking into account all of the (every so often) ugliness on the Wire (and I am guilty of some of it), I believe our game is better when these give and take discussions take place.

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Deuce,

I don't know that any energy is "Wasted" when well meaning people discuss or debate a topic.

I deeply respect your opinion (and that of many others on this thread), so when your view of a topic is different than mine, I always want to explore that reasoning to see if the basis for my belief is flawed.

I have seen category jumping, but more often so friends did not have to shoot against each other (or conversely, so friends could shoot against each other) than to assure someone of a win.

I have never recognized it as being abused to the point that we require a new rule, but I will admit to being dense or just plain blind from time to time.

I appreciate that we have this forum to waste our energies.

Even taking into account all of the (every so often) ugliness on the Wire (and I am guilty of some of it), I believe our game is better when these give and take discussions take place.

 

Notice I typed, "I" as in me and mine. Was not thinking that anyone else had wasted any energy. Kinda like me wasting my energy right now trying to clear up something before somebody else jumps all over me.

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Gosh Deuce,

 

Sorry you feel that way ("the jump all over me" way)! I've decided if folks want to make a$$es of themselves with rude, condescending comments about honest opinions, "more power to them." It will not stop me.

 

Don't give up so soon. So far, my club is unanimously in favor of Item 2, except for the folks telling me to use my judgement (and I favor item 2).

 

That said, "my club" frequently votes yes on things that don't pass. Seems like nothing is getting the 2/3 majority lately.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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I read through posts and it's a subject that have good points on each side. On Cherry picking one way to slow it down would be on big matchs , what you put in for on the registration is what you shoot. You can not change the category you registered in when the names are posted for each. This would stop people looking at who shooting and moving to a "better" category for you.

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If you are going to limit a young person from competing with older competers in an aged based catagory system. Then why would you want to give an older person the oppertunity to compete with younger aged based catagorys. What you are doing is eliminating younger shooter from bumping up but allowing older shooters to bump down. Maybe the whole aged based system needs to be eliminated?

Lefty

 

cause we earned the right for living this long

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

I know "students of the game" who know which matches to sign up for Classic Cowboy...

 

I remember 10 - 12 years ago when there was Traditional, Modern, Frontier Cartridge as the main categories, and folks were shopping for competition so much that 49'r and Senior were invented ;)

 

If we can't keep age based category folks in their category perhaps it's time to return to those original categories... in the name of competition of course :rolleyes:

 

There are always non age base categories such as Gunfighter, Duelist, Classic, and B Western which would welcome the extra participants. This would make their awards mean more to the winners too as when you are the only one in a category 1st place is, well, :wacko:

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I know "students of the game" who know which matches to sign up for Classic Cowboy...

 

I remember 10 - 12 years ago when there was Traditional, Modern, Frontier Cartridge as the main categories, and folks were shopping for competition so much that 49'r and Senior were invented ;)

 

If we can't keep age based category folks in their category perhaps it's time to return to those original categories... in the name of competition of course :rolleyes:

 

There are always non age base categories such as Gunfighter, Duelist, Classic, and B Western which would welcome the extra participants. This would make their awards mean more to the winners too as when you are the only one in a category 1st place is, well, :wacko:

 

 

Good Morning Cinch,

 

I suspect we both know some of the same "students of the game". With that said, I believe you, Duece and myself (few others of course) see the injustice of the topic and how it has hurt some of the newer and greener and younger shooters. It is difficult to watch a bully kick sand into the face of an innocent shooter by the Cherry Picker that is in reality, running from their competition. However, in my humble opinion, there is much less than 5% of all competitors are cowards running from their competiion ( cheery pickers) . Not really a worthty number to make a new rule about.

 

I did get tickled when I studied the scores of a recent big match and noticed a "student of the game" choose to shoot their age base catagory (for a change) becaue the younger catagories were plum cherry picked out by better shooters,,,, I should add, that there were some darn good shooters in the younger catagories too, that took 1st place or helped filled up the other top places. Anyway, this shooter had to settle with 3rd or 4th in their age catagory and would've placed even lower in the other catagores. The person knew their competion, and knew how to minimize the damage for this particular shoot. They probably blamed the guns or the ammo for their poor placement. Hmmmm, I wonder if that shooter will switch to some form of costuming and blackpowder so their opions are broadened for better selection at the next matches.? LOL..

 

Cinch, I guess we (I should say, I) gotta let it go.

 

Blastmaster

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

Mornin Blastmaster!!

 

Yeah it shouldn't take a rule. Like I said I remember when the age protection started and now days with the ability to study entrants, stages, scores etc. there are those "students" that take advantage. Maybe in the interest of competition its time to let the door swing both ways ;)

 

Cya, Cinch

 

P.S. This probably doesn't rear it's head as much at a match with 300+ shooters but 100+ state and annuals is where the fix is needed...

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