Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

At what point does a target change?


Ace_of_Hearts

Recommended Posts

5 targets

When shot from starting position they are RIFLE targets

Shooter must move down range to engage the same targets with pistols.

 

After shooting his rifle the shooter draws pistols (gunfighter) and shoots the targets from the rifle position and hits all ten shots in what would be the proper order.

 

Possible penalties

10 misses. (Shooter shoots the wrong type of target) Hence the question.... At what point down range does the targets become PISTOL targets?

or

1 Procedural

Link to post
Share on other sites

If I read your post correctly, it would seem that the shooter shot the correct targets with the correct firearm but in a shooting position different than the stage instructions.

 

My call would be a 'P' BUT it could be argued that the shooter shot from the their original position to keep from moving and therefore gained time by his/her decision to circumvent the stage description to save time. THEREFORE, it might become a harsher penalty.

 

 

..........Widder

Link to post
Share on other sites

Most stage descriptions designate such targets as "R/P" the movement of the shooter has no bearing on "when" they change because they do not "change". Shooter forgot to move to the required position, proper call would be P.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Many times, at least around these parts the shooter is given the option of doing just that. While they may gain time by not moving, the added distance make the shot considerably more difficult. The penalty, if there is one, would depend entirely on the stage description, if it said move, then a P.

 

Dogmeat Dad

Link to post
Share on other sites

5 targets

When shot from starting position they are RIFLE targets

Shooter must move down range to engage the same targets with pistols.

 

Since there is no minimum distance, then it would seem by the letter, so long as he shuffled his feet even 1/128" (or less) downrange he met the requirement. And darned good shooting on his part.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Depends on the actual stage instructions.

 

If there is no minimum movement distance specified before engaging pistols the shooter is clean.

 

If there is a clear instruction about minimum distance to move (e.g., shooter must move at least 1 step and may go as far as the barrel) then a 'P' would be appropriate.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Since there is no minimum distance, then it would seem by the letter, so long as he shuffled his feet even 1/128" (or less) downrange he met the requirement. And darned good shooting on his part.

Howdy Joe, with down range movement there is almost always a stated positon, 2x4 nailed in the ground, spray paint, table, fence post...etc...etc.

 

The penalty is a P.

RO I page 25

• Firing any firearm from a position or location other than as required by the stage description.

 

Jefro :ph34r:

Link to post
Share on other sites

"P".... stage convention dictates location within one step.

Link to post
Share on other sites

At our club all stages like that are written "move to position---- and than engage with the pistols. In that case the call would be a P. If the instructions simply stated "make rifle safe and than engage the same targets with your pistol" it would be a no call, and a round of applause for excellent shooting by the gunfighter. Really need to see exactly how the stage description is written. It really does make a difference

Link to post
Share on other sites

Howdy Joe, with down range movement there is almost always a stated positon, 2x4 nailed in the ground, spray paint, table, fence post...etc...etc.

 

The penalty is a P.

RO I page 25

• Firing any firearm from a position or location other than as required by the stage description.

 

Jefro :ph34r:

 

Jefro, I agree with you that if there was a point or distance specified that there would be a penalty. If the OP stated it correctly, there was no point or distance given, just that the shooter must move down range to engage

. If that is a correct statement of the instructions, then any movement, no matter how slight, should satisfy the letter of the instructions. The spirit or intent of the instructions imply at least a few steps towards the targets.

Link to post
Share on other sites

At our club all stages like that are written "move to position---- and than engage with the pistols. In that case the call would be a P. If the instructions simply stated "make rifle safe and than engage the same targets with your pistol" it would be a no call, and a round of applause for excellent shooting by the gunfighter. Really need to see exactly how the stage description is written. It really does make a difference

 

STAGE INSTRUCTIONS

(Shotgun was first but not important to this discussion)

Pick up rifle and engage rifle targets in a double tap Nevada sweep starting from either end. Make rifle safe on table between the rails.

Move downrange to cone and using pistols as needed, engage the pistol targets in a double tap Nevada sweep starting on either end. Holster.

Link to post
Share on other sites

STAGE INSTRUCTIONS

(Shotgun was first but not important to this discussion)

Pick up rifle and engage rifle targets in a double tap Nevada sweep starting from either end. Make rifle safe on table between the rails.

Move downrange to cone and using pistols as needed, engage the pistol targets in a double tap Nevada sweep starting on either end. Holster.

 

Yup, thats clear. Award one 'P'. At most clubs you would have to fire pistols from within arms reach (or within 1 step) of the cone.

Link to post
Share on other sites

STAGE INSTRUCTIONS

(Shotgun was first but not important to this discussion)

Pick up rifle and engage rifle targets in a double tap Nevada sweep starting from either end. Make rifle safe on table between the rails.

Move downrange to cone and using pistols as needed, engage the pistol targets in a double tap Nevada sweep starting on either end. Holster.

There you go. If he is within one step of the cone, no penalty. Anything else, it would be a P.

Link to post
Share on other sites

STAGE INSTRUCTIONS

 

Move downrange to cone and using pistols as needed,

 

Ah! The devil is in the details. A specified point is far different from just "move downrange" as stated in the original post.

Link to post
Share on other sites

5 targets

When shot from starting position they are RIFLE targets

Shooter must move down range to engage the same targets with pistols.

 

After shooting his rifle the shooter draws pistols (gunfighter) and shoots the targets from the rifle position and hits all ten shots in what would be the proper order.

 

Possible penalties

10 misses. (Shooter shoots the wrong type of target) Hence the question.... At what point down range does the targets become PISTOL targets?

or

1 Procedural

I see 2 P's,,,one for shooting from the wrong position,,,,the other is a (P)at on the back for such fine shootin,,, :lol: A question comes to mind,,,did the shooter elect to shoot from the longer distance to gain time on the clock,,,or just made a mistake?? The Miss Flow Chart is a little iffy on this one,,,since there were rifle-pistol combo targets,,,and two starting positions,,,if it was a mistake,,,1 P,,,,Bear Creek Reverend

Link to post
Share on other sites

"P".... stage convention dictates location within one step.

 

 

Wrong!!! I thought so too but nothing such is stated in the RO1 book -page 13 "Stage Convention" . The stage writer left the back door open by not specifying how close the shooter had to get to the cone.

 

So the shooter gets a good gamer award,,,no penalty, so long as he move toward the cone.

 

Can somebody find something different in any of the other rule books?

 

Blastmaster

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wrong!!! I thought so too but nothing such is stated in the RO1 book -page 13 "Stage Convention" . The stage writer left the back door open by not specifying how close the shooter had to get to the cone.

 

So the shooter gets a good gamer award,,,no penalty, so long as he move toward the cone.

 

Can somebody find something different in any of the other rule books?

 

Blastmaster

 

Would not "Move downrange to cone" mean the shooter had to be at the cone? I would imagine that some common sense would be applied to allow for safe foot placement.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wrong!!! I thought so too but nothing such is stated in the RO1 book -page 13 "Stage Convention" . The stage writer left the back door open by not specifying how close the shooter had to get to the cone.

 

So the shooter gets a good gamer award,,,no penalty, so long as he move toward the cone.

 

Can somebody find something different in any of the other rule books?

 

Blastmaster

 

Every word in the English language is not defined in the RO manuals.

The stage direction was not move towards the cone - the direction is move "TO"...

The cone is a location and the word "to" when used within this context, is a directive for both the direction AND distance required.

Go "TO" the barn - walking "Towards" the barn, but not arriving at does not satisfy the directive.

I'm going "TO" the city - does not mean I will take a single step in the direction of the city.

"TO" the moon Alice - implies his assault would result in her flying to the moon - not simply slumping on the floor.

The direction - move "TO" the window does not allow me to take a small step towards the window and then give me permission to freely engage the targets from where I am standing.

 

I am as gamey as anyone I know - and I will read stage instructions from as many angles as possible to find an edge.

But, pushing the boundaries when directions are poorly worded is one thing - Out and out claims that words do not mean what they mean is no longer gamey or even fun - it is simply obtuse.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Would not "Move downrange to cone" mean the shooter had to be at the cone? I would imagine that some common sense would be applied to allow for safe foot placement.

 

 

I hear you, I want to agree with you, common sense kinda says so,,,,, but, unless somebody can quote Mr. Webster as defining "move to" as being with in a certain and measurable distance from the object, then the definition is wide open for interpetation. That is how I see it.

 

When writing stages, don't assume what you think is what everybody else thinks the same. If you want the shooter to go to the object, specify just how close you want them (1 step for example) to get.

 

Blastmaster

Link to post
Share on other sites

Every word in the English language is not defined in the RO manuals.

The stage direction was not move towards the cone - the direction is move "TO"...

The cone is a location and the word "to" when used within this context, is a directive for both the direction AND distance required.

Go "TO" the barn - walking "Towards" the barn, but not arriving at does not satisfy the directive.

I'm going "TO" the city - does not mean I will take a single step in the direction of the city.

"TO" the moon Alice - implies his assault would result in her flying to the moon - not simply slumping on the floor.

The direction - move "TO" the window does not allow me to take a small step towards the window and then give me permission to freely engage the targets from where I am standing.

 

I am as gamey as anyone I know - and I will read stage instructions from as many angles as possible to find an edge.

But, pushing the boundaries when directions are poorly worded is one thing - Out and out claims that words do not mean what they mean is no longer gamey or even fun - it is simply obtuse.

 

 

I hear ya.

 

If the directions said: Deliver this A-bomb "to" Creeker and detonate it, I think one could safely say that getting that A-bomb to the city Creeker is presently in would be close enough. ^_^

Link to post
Share on other sites

I hear you, I want to agree with you, common sense kinda says so,,,,, but, unless somebody can quote Mr. Webster as defining "move to" as being with in a certain and measurable distance from the object, then the definition is wide open for interpetation. That is how I see it.

 

When writing stages, don't assume what you think is what everybody else thinks the same. If you want the shooter to go to the object, specify just how close you want them (1 step for example) to get.

 

Blastmaster

 

Common sense tells me not to post what I want to in response to the post quoted above. Creeker, excellent response. Thank you. When we have to define what "to" means then I will move on to another activity. SASS will no longer be enjoyable for me.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I hear you, I want to agree with you, common sense kinda says so,,,,, but, unless somebody can quote Mr. Webster as defining "move to" as being with in a certain and measurable distance from the object, then the definition is wide open for interpetation. That is how I see it.

 

When writing stages, don't assume what you think is what everybody else thinks the same. If you want the shooter to go to the object, specify just how close you want them (1 step for example) to get.

 

Blastmaster

 

I can't see any ambiguity there. If one moves to a point, one ends movement at that point. If one moves towards a point, one is in motion in a direction that will theoretically take one to that point. For example, I can walk to the post office. Until I get there, I have not gotten to it, I am only walking towards it.

 

I guess, to avoid all potential misunderstanding directions should be written something like "after securing rifle and setting upon table provided (see engineering drawings Appendix A), proceed on a bearing of S 43o 15' 36" E true, for a distance of 15' 3.925" (see 1:24,000 topographic map, USGS Cross Mountain Quadrangle, Appendix B ) arriving at orange cone 17.2" high with a base 12.25" x 12.3" and striped with two horizontal bands of reflective white tape, each stripe 2" wide (see drawing Appendix C). Upon arrival at said cone (see above) shooter, while keeping at least one foot in contact with cone (excepting that foot may be moved out of contact for safety reasons), shooter may draw from holster and engage targets.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Common sense tells me not to post what I want to in response to the post quoted above. Creeker, excellent response. Thank you. When we have to define what "to" means then I will move on to another activity. SASS will no longer be enjoyable for me.

 

I wouldn't do it but have had it done to me. I took it to the MD and lost the decision. The shooter was 12 feet from getting to the stump.

 

Just write what you mean in stage descriptions or ask during the walk through or when the stage is read. As an RO, find out what is ment so you can pass it on to the posse and everyone is on the same book and you don't get one of those late shooters pulling off a show stopper such as what is being discussed.

 

You do not have to define "to", just find the definition in Webster and use that. Gurantee it doesn't say within one step either.

 

 

Blastmaster

Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't see any ambiguity there. If one moves to a point, one ends movement at that point. If one moves towards a point, one is in motion in a direction that will theoretically take one to that point. For example, I can walk to the post office. Until I get there, I have not gotten to it, I am only walking towards it.

 

I guess, to avoid all potential misunderstanding directions should be written something like "after securing rifle and setting upon table provided (see engineering drawings Appendix A), proceed on a bearing of S 43o 15' 36" E true, for a distance of 15' 3.925" (see 1:24,000 topographic map, USGS Cross Mountain Quadrangle, Appendix B ) arriving at orange cone 17.2" high with a base 12.25" x 12.3" and striped with two horizontal bands of reflective white tape, each stripe 2" wide (see drawing Appendix C). Upon arrival at said cone (see above) shooter, while keeping at least one foot in contact with cone (excepting that foot may be moved out of contact for safety reasons), shooter may draw from holster and engage targets.

 

 

Sounds good! At least with your description, the shooter has to tag up with the cone before moving some distance back for safety reasons. :lol:

 

Edit: Uph!!! most everyone would get a P for not traversing the exact bearing/distance to the cone you specified. :P

Link to post
Share on other sites

5 targets

When shot from starting position they are RIFLE targets

Shooter must move down range to engage the same targets with pistols.

 

After shooting his rifle the shooter draws pistols (gunfighter) and shoots the targets from the rifle position and hits all ten shots in what would be the proper order.

 

Possible penalties

10 misses. (Shooter shoots the wrong type of target) Hence the question.... At what point down range does the targets become PISTOL targets?

or

1 Procedural

 

If the shooter "must move down range to engage the same targets with pistols," and if he instead "shoots the targets from the rifle position," then it looks to me like a P.

 

But, for me, honestly, it's just my view. I'd readily defer to someone with more expertise in the area on my posse.

 

AJ

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds good! At least with your description, the shooter has to tag up with the cone before moving some distance back for safety reasons. :lol:

 

Edit: Uph!!! most everyone would get a P for not traversing the exact bearing/distance to the cone you specified. :P

 

Well, tough! And shame on them for not being able to read the provided Brunton Pocket Transit (Patented 1894)!

Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a stage at EOT a few years back like that. You shot the rifle after pulling it from the scabbard on the wooden horse. I think it said you can move as far as the hay bale to shoot the pistols at same targets. Everyone on our posse ran up to the hay bale...except Ed Sieker.. he just pulled his pistols and shot them from the horse!! The RO almost ran over him expecting him to go forward! Almost everyone else then wanted a re-shoot because we didn't think about that :blink:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, tough! And shame on them for not being able to read the provided Brunton Pocket Transit (Patented 1894)!

 

 

Just funning ya here,

 

Bruntons can not be read to minutes/seconds of degrees nor humans pacing to tenth/hundredths of a foot. So with that, everyone gets a P and thus, ya might as well shoot the pistol targets from where you shot the rifle targets and earn the one P per stage there and save the travel time in advancing/tagging the cone. :lol:

 

Anyway, back to my original findings, nothing in SASS Stage Convention on this matter.

 

 

Blastmaster, (who owns a Brunton)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't make it harder than it is.....stage instructions said move to the cone and he stayed where he was so he shot from the wrong position. It's just a P.

 

If ithey didn't say move to the cone.....then that's different.....but it did.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.