Iron Pony Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Went out to the range yesterday to do some more shooting with the new C. Mason conversions in 44Spec. and to keep my hand in with modern guns I took the Springfield XDM 45ACP. Planned to shoot a box of handloads to see how the XD handled an XTP bullet but testing didn’t get far as the third round was a squib. Here is the rundown of equipment and situation. Bullet - Hornady 200 grain XTP bullet Brass – New unfired Starline 45ACP +P Powder – Accurate Arms #7 Primer – Remington 2.5 COL – 1.22-.25” I have not included the powder charge but it is on the high end of what Accurate lists in their on line guide but does not reach +P level. Loading was done on the Square Deal as always and the only changes made from std die settings for practice rounds were COL and charge weight. Same bell on the case mouth and same crimp etc. Loaded five rounds of the handload into the magazine and fired the first round. First thought was “crap these are louder then 44 bp loads”. Fired the second round and all ok, both were in the black but low on the 10 yard target. Lined up for #3 and got a pop, no bang. Hit the magazine release and held the gun on target for 30 seconds then cleared and field stripped the pistol. The brass was still in the chamber and the bullet driven about 3/8 of an inch into the bore. Attached are photos of the brass, inside and out along with the bullet after being drifted out with a brass rod, and the base. The squib round is in the middle and much dirtier, inside and out, then rounds 1 and 2. The bullet is fully engraved and the base is peppered as well. There was no unburned powder in the chamber/bbl of the pistol when I field stripped it and when a patch was run down the bbl afterwards it was very dirty. Took the three pieces of fired brass, with expended primers in place, and weighed them. Both good rounds were 95 grains, the squib was about .3 grains lighter. Weighed the recovered slug and it was right on, dead on 200 grains. Adding in X for the weight of the powder charge I weighed the 97 remaining rounds and found no under or overweight outliers that would account for a missing charge or double charge. Of the 97 weighed the swing between heaviest and lightest was 2 grains, +1 and -1 from the norm. Resized and deprimed the three cases, the spent primers all looked the same. Primer pockets all looked the same, no more crud in one then another. Flash holes were all nice and clean, not sure if they were punched or drilled but they all look fine. #1 and #2 took more grunt then did the squib to run through the press. Checked the powder by burning about 20 grains from the same can the handloads were made from and got a good energetic burn with a nice orange flame. Took about 100 rounds of practice ammo loaded from that same can with the same primers to the range this morning and they all went bang, no problems. Tried to scrape the residue off the inside of the squb brass but it appears to be just carbon. The only times I’ve ever had a similar situation was with the ratzafrazzin 454Casull when not enough crimp was used and small rifle primers would push the bullet into the revolver bore but NOT set off the powder. In that case the unburned powder was packed into the forcing cone of the bbl and tied up the gun. Then there was case of the Russian primers that worked fine with Bullseye but wouldn’t fully light off the AA#7. In that situation there was loads of unburned powder and the slugs cleared the bbl. So what happened? Did I get an uncharged case? (Didnt have any "extra" bullets when the 100 were done and there wasnt any powder in the loaded round tray) Was the primer at fault? (all the others from this lot have gone off) Do I need a tighter crimp? (theres a good bulge following the profile on the other 97 and I cant push the bullet any deeper in the case by hand) Bad powder? (practice rounds went bang and powder burned nicely) I'm going to send an inquiry to Dillon and Accurate Arms to see if they have any suggestions, plus I'm going to take one box of this out to the range in the next couple of days to see if I get a repeat. http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/smitchell1_photo/squib2.jpg http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/smitchell1_photo/squib1.jpg http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/smitchell1_photo/squib3.jpg http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/smitchell1_photo/squib4.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Classic indications of "not enough powder." Do you watch your powder dump for complete operation on each stroke? Have you run that powder in that measure for that quantity before? Do you set your charge weights by measurin' the first 4 or 5 rounds to MAKE sure you're dumpin' enough? I measure at least 3 or 4 times before I go to crankin' the handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 What Griff sed. PLUS one other thing you 'might' try. If it don't bother your conscience, why not try to recreate the situation again by loading only ONE round with primer only, same style bullet, and same crimp. See if you get identical results. This might answer your question before you make inquiries to Dillon and Accurate Arms. Good luck ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusty Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Been there; done that. I'd say the only thing pushing the projectile was the primer. If there had been powder in the case it wouldn't be so black. I've seen it before. Don't ask how I know. My $.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 No mystery to a squib- there was no powder in the case. It could have been either equipment failure or operator error (it happens). I always watch the powder drop then I also shake the case to listen for powder before putting it into the ammo box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 No powder in case. Could be it came from when you were doing the powder measure and seater setting. It's real easy on a progressive to get distracted and think you are running every operation on the cases at the beginning, while you are setting dies. But that is the most common time to skip an operation. Do you make it a practice to only have one shell on the shell plate during setup? That is what saves me from setup errors. Check that you don't have oil contamination in the powder measure, too. Too bad you don't have full-size-die-compatible loader with a free station for an RCBS lockout die. Those are great inventions. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 No powder. I like using a powder cop die, easy to adjust for different calibers/loads. Good Luck Powder Cop Jefro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Mountain Buzzard Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Squib = Powder Issue 1. None or not enough powder 2. Wet or contaminated powder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch McGie, SASS#71758 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 U can check for powder in the rest of the bullets in that batch by borrowing a funnel from the kitchen that the small opening is slightly bigger than your case. slip the loaded case in the funnel and hold it up to your ear and shake it. U can hear the powder scratching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos El Hombre Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 One of my fellow shooters had an insect get hung up in his powder measure which reduced the capacity a great deal creating alot of squibs. The lesson is that weird things are possible. Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Pony Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 Ok here is the followup to the squib mystery. First off I filled the hopper on the powder measure, threw and weighed 20 charges, no settings had been changed so the charge weight was spot on. After rezeroing the scale and checking it using some match 168 grain 308 bullets as a check weight none of the thrown charges were off. Even did another 10 with the safety bar unhooked, still dead on. Did another 10 charges with fired brass in the deprime station and varied the stroke speed to see if the very fine #7 would change weight, nope. Took one of the fired pieces of +P brass, resized and primed it then seated a 200grain cast bullet on the empty case. I marked the primer with a sharpie and headed out to the range with a box of the previously weighed reloads. Took 10 rounds at random and fired them without a problem. Then I took the powderless cartridge and popped it off. Slug was driven into the bbl to the same depth as the squib; case was sooted up just like the squib both inside and out. Had my handy dandy brass rod and small machinsit hammer so I drifted the slug out and it was fully engraved like the jacketed bullet. So I know what happened, at least to my satisfaction but now have to figure out how. The square deal has loaded thousands and thousands of rounds with never a problem before. Most of what I do now is BP but, 38Super, 10mm, 40SW, 45ACP,45LC among others have all been done on this machine and a previous one with zero squibs. I dont see how the measure would have skipped this one round when the measure is operated only when a case is in the charging position. No case, no operation of the measure. There was also no occurence of that "ruh roh, theres loose powder in the cartridge hopper" that can happen. SOP for using the machine is to position a gooseneck light above and on the left side of the machine so I can do a visual check of the charged cases and I do not recall if I did so for this particular session. Its a given that will now be on the set up check list. Two questions come out of the process. #1 Anyone else had a squib round from a SDB? and #2. Anyone ever come up with a powder cop for one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 ... 1 Anyone else had a squib round from a SDB? ... I've got a Square Deal B. Used it for about 10 years reloading 45 Colt smokeless and once it a great while black powder sub. I have NEVER had a squib! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 IP, regardless of how idiot proof a machine seems, never underestimate the resourcefullness of the high caliber idiot. Ya KNOW somehow ya probably screwed up, or the machine did. I actually think ya may have had a small charge on the order of a grain or so of powder, as the base of the bullet is scored in a way unburned powder tends to do. That can fool ya when yer looking straight down into the case with a light. I dunno about a powder cop for the SDB, but I know after I had a measure bridge and give me a few 1 grain charges on the dillon, (one near squib, one squib, two more found when bullets were pulled), I put a powder alarm on the 650. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 The square deal has loaded thousands and thousands of rounds with never a problem before. Most of what I do now is BP but, 38Super, 10mm, 40SW, 45ACP,45LC among others have all been done on this machine and a previous one with zero squibs. It truly doesn't matter how many rounds went before... the very NEXT one could be the one that points to a potential problem with the machine, your methodology or the simple fact that somehow, someway, THAT particular little bunch of powder got blocked in the powder dump. I dont see how the measure would have skipped this one round when the measure is operated only when a case is in the charging position. No case, no operation of the measure. There was also no occurrence of that "ruh roh, there's loose powder in the cartridge hopper" that can happen. Sometimes we over-think things. Sometimes stuff just happens. Not very often with small flake or ball powder, but occasionally, a clump of powder will just not flow thru the powder dump... either it's clogged at the bottom of the hopper, or it just sits in the measuring block. Just happened to run across the receipt for my 1st 550B, so that I can, with confidence say that since 1989, I've not figured it out... SOP for using the machine is to position a gooseneck light above and on the left side of the machine so I can do a visual check of the charged cases and I do not recall if I did so for this particular session. Its a given that will now be on the set up check list. Good procedural check. Now the operator has to follow thru. Two questions come out of the process. #1 Anyone else had a squib round from a SDB? I don't have a SDB, but my B-I-L does, and has occasionally (more like extremely rarely) get a squib. He loads mostly .38 spl and .45s... and has a light setup similar to yours... refuses to load if anyone else is around, and as I recall, doesn't even have a radio in hearing range. He concentrates on that one thing alone. Mind ya, before I bought my 550, I loaded on his SDB, and never had a problem... even with him standing' around offering' advice and criticism. and #2. Anyone ever come up with a powder cop for one? I've never seen one. But then, with no SDB to shop for... I ain't really been looking'. I now have 2 550Bs, and while the lighting over the original is great for checking' my powder dumps, the other'n needs lookin' at. I've only loaded a few .38s on it to check it's operation when I first set it up... (permanently set 'em up so one's for small & the other for large primers). And haven't loaded any since... I need to hunt up a old lamp like you describe for it... or rehang light fixtures. (8' fluorescents)... great light, but do get some shadows. IMO, and worth exactly zero... it's mostly about the habitual motions we go thru when loading... the occasional crushed primer, case or just a misaligned case causes us (well me, anyway), to disrupt the smooth flow of case to de-prime with the right hand, pick up bullet with left, pull the handle with right as I set bullet and guide it up to the seater, look up at the powder dump, glance in the primer carrier as the handle comes back, then into the charged (?) case while pushing the handle to seat the primer, push shell holder around one station, set bullet on charged case and back to setting next case. It's during those disruptions that we fail to look to make sure the primer is coming with cup "up", at the powder dump to make sure it's working right, or into the case to make sure the powder fell and is at the approximate level we expect for that load. It's all in the details. (Boy howdy, that's harder to describe than to do)! And, unfortunately, like most mechanical equipment, things get out of adjustment, break or just simply, in-explicitly, fail to operate the way they always have. I couldn't tell you how many loads I'd run thru my 550 before I noticed that the little plastic square washer that fits in the side of the powder bar was cracked. It wasn't until I noticed the lever jump outta the slot and it fell out that I found it. Short call to Dillon and TWO replacements were on the way. I asked for one, but the salesman said, "I see here you have 2 machines... better have a spare on hand!" Ain't they just the BEST? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awful Close Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 My 550 was one of the first (I know,you have the Square Deal). It had a powder thrower that would occassionally hang up. The springs could not return the bar. I found some scoring in the thrower. Dillon replaced it with a much newer model that has a bushing where the old one didn't. Don't know if your SDB has the return lever mechanism or not. If not, look inside your powder thrower for any sign of scoring or bushing damage. You may have had some powder bridging which blocked the drop tube, unfortunately that may mean that the next bullet may have received a double load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafe Conager SASS #56958 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Been doing this 10+ years have seen a handful of squibs, all from someone using a progressive press. most times the shooter gets a pop from the squib then later gets a BANG and a whoa from the shooter, and everyone says that's were the powder went. you gotta make sure your powder measure gets cleaned out and the drop tube is clean and free of clogs or damp powder. When loading smokeless (not very often) I blow out all my dies and powder measure's, never had a squib! knock on wood. Rafe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Pony Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 Just did another 200 rounds of 45ACP, this the standard load which is about 15% lighter then squib round. Set the measure and weighed ten charges, all good which is why I like the powder, it meters very consistently. Put the work light up as per normal and did a visual check of each round which with the #7 is about 1/2 full and easy to see. No issues and I'm looking forward to shooting them. Looking at the SDB with the 4 position tool head and special dies it really doesnt look a good possibility. As much as I'd like to pick up a 650, space and cost are both concerns now so for the time being careful is the answer. Going to keep an eye out for that Murphy fella and take a little more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Hey Pony, I've had one squib and one damaged cylinder in I don't dare count how many years. Both were my fault. I even know how I did it. That being said, if you don't have a blackboard to write on, just go to the bathroom mirror with a dumb look on your face and repeat "I gotta be more careful" 'bout 50 times. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocDisaster # 45431 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I have never had a squib from my handloads, but have experienced them with commercial manufactured ammunition!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Payne 13115 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Iron Pony, if you hesitate on the SDB it's gonna index. You might have done this not realizing. This lets the case on station #2 get primed and move to station #3 with out any powder. Or perhaps you removed a case @ #3 to weigh it and forgot to put the powder back in. What I mean by hesitate is when you put a case at station #1 and you did not seat it all the way on to the shell plate and you pull on the handle it is gonna jam, so you pull on it a 2nd time but it moved around already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red River Ray SASS#33254 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Anything that stops your normal motion on a reloader can cause this as Mr payne stated. gravel or a 22 case stuck inside of another case etc. When this happens one MUST look all remaining cases on tha loader to ensure all steps in tha process have occured. I have had only 1 squib in all my reloading but I've probably found 50 that would have become that had I not looked. I'd keep a gittin it and never look back except ta make sure of everyone on tha reloader if something didn't feel right. RRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 EVERYONE that reloads has gotten or will have a squib. I have reloaded for over 45 years and have loaded tens of thousands of rounds and finally had one last year. Bottom line is that in 99.9% of the cases it is operator error. Check all your equipment and technique. Live and learn, but don't obsess over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deacon Will Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Kinda hard to tell from the photos.... but look at the base of the bullet. It shows (I believe) the classic primer 'burn' mark when there is no powder. Again, the photo is not the same as having it in hand. Been using Dillon equipment (Square Deal, 650 and a 1050) for years. It is eay to forget for a second and misplace a case.... phone ringing, doorbell, kids, dogs, girlfriend(s) or wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Classic indications of "not enough powder." +1. Review your reloading procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Pony Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 Yep live and learn, watch procedures and be careful. Seems like there are just some boxes in life you have to check and this may be one of them... Match DQ? Check, dropped a loaded gun. Stage DQ? Check, dropped an unloaded gun. Clean match? Check Factory Load Squib? Check, CCI Lawman with the flying ashtray stuck in the bbl of, you guessed it, a 45. Handload Squib? Check Blown Up Gun? Check, Maine States in 2003. Auto Accident in Walmart parking lot? Check Show your junk at Mardi Gras for beads? Check, check, check, check, ch...you get the picture. Get Married? Check Get Divorced? Check Get Married Again? Now hold on just a minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Payne 13115 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 You for got to add given a bunch of BANNANAS!! LMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Pony Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 Gee thanks for bringing that up Tom, remind me to give you a wet willie at the next shoot. Had hoped everyone in the peanut gallery that day would have forgotten the incident but somehow I doubt that will ever, and I mean EVER, happen. Two things, Taz still owes me an order of the bannana pin and as Piney said "that women would kill you but you'd have a smile on your face the mortician couldnt remove." She'd make a hell of an ex-wife wouldnt she? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheriff Oso, SASS #57788L Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 This happened to me once. a "clump" of tumbling media and brass polish were still inside the case (.45 LC -not ACP). Had I not looked inside the case while inspecting for spilit cases, I mighthave missed it. I had to use a small screwdriver to pry that globule out of the case. It was the only one it happened with, too. Now, after I tumble, I visually inspect each piece for spilits AND crud stuck inside the case. If ya drop powder on top of the nonburning glob, the primer will go foo, but not the powder and you will get a squib every time. Just another of the long line of fun things about reloading! FWIW..YMMV..SOso. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 #2. Anyone ever come up with a powder cop for one? The Hornady Powder Cop will work. If you need an extra hole you would have to use a combination powder thru expander die, or a combination seat/crimp die to make room for it. Good Luck Powder Cop Jefro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 The Hornady Powder Cop will work. If you need an extra hole you would have to use a combination powder thru expander die, or a combination seat/crimp die to make room for it. Powder Cop Jefro Ummmm, the SDB press uses smaller dies than the standard 7/8 x 14 dies in most presses. That's why the Powder Cop is hard to come by. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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