Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I am looking at getting a '73 soon and am trying do decide on a caliber. I am leaning towards 44/40 but not sure of the pros and cons to this cartridge in this rifle. An y input would be appreciated, Thanks Smokestack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I am looking at getting a '73 soon and am trying do decide on a caliber. I am leaning towards 44/40 but not sure of the pros and cons to this cartridge in this rifle. An y input would be appreciated, Thanks Smokestack Excellent BP cartridge in that rifle. A very good smokeless cartridge. Reduces fouling blowback into the carrier block and action compared to .45 Colt or .44 Special. Accurate and authentic to the period. Feeds very slick in most '73s. Costs more than any other cartridge (except maybe .38-40). Hard to find commercially loaded so that it is suitable for CAS. Slightly tricky to load due to thin brass walls that collapse or bulge out if you don't size, expand and crimp properly. Brass life is shorter than straight-wall cases. Loading for pistols often requires cylinder throating to make the revolvers work well and accurately. Large caliber rifles qualify shooter for Classic Cowboy and can be used in Wild Bunch side matches. An expensive, but excellent cartridge that demands to be reloaded. Kind of the Mercedes Benz of CAS cartridges. (My disclaimer - it's my favorite rifle cartridge) (If I were as cheap as my wife thinks I am, my favorite would be .38 special ). Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Tooth Zach Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Kind of the Mercedes Benz of CAS cartridges. If the 44/40 is the 'mercedes benz' of cartridges, then what is the 45 colt? The ford truck of CAS cartridges? And what would the 38 special be? The mazda miata? (BTW, the advice is correct in being able to shoot more categories with the larger caliber. You could also take the approach to keep things simple and match the caliber of the rifle to your pistol caliber.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 If the 44/40 is the 'mercedes benz' of cartridges, then what is the 45 colt? The ford truck of CAS cartridges? And what would the 38 special be? The mazda miata? .45 Colt - Ford truck Yep. Lots of folks buy em. They are the original real deal. High capacity. Not the fastest thing to drive around town. .38 Special - I'd say more like the Toyota Corolla. Cheap, useful, not very stylin', not very powerful, but it's what works well. Can find 'em all over. GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I'd reckon that would make the .32-20 the Ferrari then? Fast, original and expensive!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Howdy The 44-40 cartridge was introduced in 1873 by Winchester at the same time the Model 1873 rifle was introduced. The cartridge is also known as 44 WCF for Winchester Central Fire. The 44-40 was developed to be more powerful than the 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge, that both the Henry rifle and Winchester Model 1866 fired. The Henry round used a bullet that weighed between 200 and 216 grains with a powder charge of about 26 grains of Black Powder. The 44-40 cartridge used a 200 grain bullet with a 40 grain charge of powder. Because of the increased power of the 44-40 round, the 1873 rifle used an iron frame, rather than the bronze frames used by the Henry and Model 1866. Later versions of the 1873 rifle had steel frames. Until 1879 the only caliber the 1873 rifle was available in was 44-40. In 1879 Winchester began chambering the rifle for 38-40. In 1882 Winchester offered the 1873 chambered for 32-20. There were also 22 Rimfire versions of the rifle. As an interesting aside, Colt first chambered the Single Action Army for 44-40 in 1878. It is interesting to note that no rifles were ever chambered in 45 Colt until quite recently. 44-40 brass is considerably thinner at the neck than most straight walled cartridges. They tend to run around .007-.008 thick at the neck while 45 Colt brass tends to run around .012 thick at the neck. It is this thinness at the neck that can cause 44-40 to be a bit fussy to reload. One must be careful to set his dies properly so as not to crumple the neck. Not that it is difficult to reload, I have been reloadnig 44-40 for years. But one does have to be careful and not rush. If a 44-40 case slams into the base of a sizing die it will probably be ruined. The more robust 45 Colt round will just shrug off such an insult. So slowing down a bit and making sure the dies are properly set will take care of any problems loading 44-40. Some reloaders report better results using a factory crimp die with 44-40 to seat the bullet and crimp in two separate steps. Personally, I do both at once in a conventional seating/crimp die. That same thinness at the neck is what makes 44-40 such a joy to shoot with Black Powder in a rifle. The brass expands to completely seal the chamber much better at relatively low pressure than the 45 Colt, so all the fouling stays in the bore where it belongs. Some attribute this to the 'bottleneck' shape, but frankly, the taper on 44-40 is so slight that it has nothing to do with keeping the fouling out of the chamber. It is the thinness of the brass that does it. Both 45 Colt and 44-40 are so expensive to buy factory loaded that the CAS shooter must reload them or he will soon be in the poorhouse. I have not bought any factory loads of either recently, so I cannot compare prices. 44-40 brass can be more expensive to buy, depending on who's you buy. Winchester only sells it in bags of 50, compared to the 100 count bags they sell 45 Colt in, and if you do the math the 44-40 is more expensive. Starline seems to charge the same price for either caliber. As to the longevity of the brass, I find that 44-40 brass shoots for just as long as 45 Colt. One interesting thing is though, when a 45 Colt case splits, it usually splits all the way down the middle. Because of the thinness at the neck, I find that 44-40 tends to start with tiny little splits at the case mouth. As long as these splits are under 1/16" long, I keep right on reloading them. I trash them once the splits grow longer than 1/16". Because the necks are so thin, they are easily crushed if stepped on at a match. I keep a 50 caliber BMG round on my reloading bench to use as a 'neck rerounding tool'. It works quite well and will rescue all but the most badly crushed 44-40 necks. 44-40 rifle groove diameter has varied over the years. Originally it was set at .427, as opposed to 44 Russian and 44 Special which were .429. Most modern manufacturers are using .429 barrels for 44-40 today, Uberti included. Because of this, a bullet of .429 or .430 diameter may be best with modern barrels. This can sometimes cause some problems with tight chambers, so if a 'fat' bullet is required for the barrel, sometimes Winchester brass is best, since it has the thinnest of all 44-40 necks. Modern 44-40 brass will no longer hold 40 grains of Black Powder, because of the modern solid head design of the cases. The old balloon head cases would hold more. Same with 45 Colt. Depending on the brand of powder I am using I usually put between 34 and 37 grains of Black Powder in either case. I echo Garrison Joe's feelings about 44-40 in revolvers, which is why all my CAS revolvers are chambered for 45 Colt. I have no problem using two different calibers at the loading table, I try to pay attention to which gun I am putting which cartridges into. I also agree that 44-40 is the Mercedes Benz of the old Black Powder cartridges. Here is a photo of some cartridges to show a comparison of sizes. Most are old cartridges, a couple are my reloads. Left to right in the photo the cartridges are 44-40, 44 Special, 44 Russian, 44 S&W American, 44 Henry Rimfire, 45 Schofield, and 45 Colt. cartridges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jim Henry, SASS #20616 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Excellent posts, GJ & DJ! Regards, TJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Howdy boys, Just keep in mind the 45 colt was never offered in a rifle until SASS came along. But it is a fine cartridge originally designed for the Colt 1873 Single Action Army Revolver. (I have to say I'm a bit biased since my favorite cartridge caliber is .44-40) As far a tricky to load, once you set your dies there shouldn't be any problems. I shoot every weekend all year long and have reloaded thousands of the .44-40 cases over the last 5+ years and have only crushed perhaps a half dozen cases due to OE (operator error). Its a great rifle cartridge historically correct and easy to load. You can as I have done have a brace of revolvers to match your rifle. (aka Colt Frontier Six Shooters). I have three 73's in .44-40, 24" 20" and 18" barreled rifles as well as a USFA lightning rifle in .44-40. TB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Red Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 The things you learn on this Wire...for instance..I didn't know that 73's came in any other caliber besides 44WCF and 38WCF... Great Treatise DWJ... Regards TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickahominy Charlie Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I find the metaphors pretty funny.....and accurate. I shoot .38's with my 13 y/o daughter....I long for the day when she "moves out" (well...not really ) and Dad can afford to move up from his Corolla to a nice, fancy truck or Mercedes..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Jack Daniels Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 To make your life simpler. I would recommend buying a 73 in the same caliber as your main match handguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Tooth Zach Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 DJ - you should charge tuition & fees to read that post. Thanks for all of the great info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 IMHO the 44/40 is the best rifle caliber, great for BP. I like the .45 Special in the revolver, they make a great combo. Good Luck. Jefro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
German Jim Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I also like the .44-40. When I get home and find any in my pile of brass, I size 'em down to .38-40 and use 'em in my rifle. When some of my rifle brass gets lost at the match its no big deal. I got the brass for free, so it doesn't cost anything. The Starline .38-40 brass that I have purchased is used in my Colts. I always get them back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 .44-40 is a great round, if'n ya shoot smokeless or BP. I can load some smokeless once in a while but mainly I shoot BP and that's why the .44-40 is my favorite. It's sure taken down enough game and humans in it's lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy Cannuck Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Howdy The 44-40 cartridge was introduced in 1873 by Winchester at the same time the Model 1873 rifle was introduced. The cartridge is also known as 44 WCF for Winchester Central Fire. The 44-40 was developed to be more powerful than the 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge, that both the Henry rifle and Winchester Model 1866 fired. The Henry round used a bullet that weighed between 200 and 216 grains with a powder charge of about 26 grains of Black Powder. The 44-40 cartridge used a 200 grain bullet with a 40 grain charge of powder. Because of the increased power of the 44-40 round, the 1873 rifle used an iron frame, rather than the bronze frames used by the Henry and Model 1866. Later versions of the 1873 rifle had steel frames. Until 1879 the only caliber the 1873 rifle was available in was 44-40. In 1879 Winchester began chambering the rifle for 38-40. In 1882 Winchester offered the 1873 chambered for 32-20. There were also 22 Rimfire versions of the rifle. As an interesting aside, Colt first chambered the Single Action Army for 44-40 in 1878. It is interesting to note that no rifles were ever chambered in 45 Colt until quite recently. 44-40 brass is considerably thinner at the neck than most straight walled cartridges. They tend to run around .007-.008 thick at the neck while 45 Colt brass tends to run around .012 thick at the neck. It is this thinness at the neck that can cause 44-40 to be a bit fussy to reload. One must be careful to set his dies properly so as not to crumple the neck. Not that it is difficult to reload, I have been reloadnig 44-40 for years. But one does have to be careful and not rush. If a 44-40 case slams into the base of a sizing die it will probably be ruined. The more robust 45 Colt round will just shrug off such an insult. So slowing down a bit and making sure the dies are properly set will take care of any problems loading 44-40. Some reloaders report better results using a factory crimp die with 44-40 to seat the bullet and crimp in two separate steps. Personally, I do both at once in a conventional seating/crimp die. That same thinness at the neck is what makes 44-40 such a joy to shoot with Black Powder in a rifle. The brass expands to completely seal the chamber much better at relatively low pressure than the 45 Colt, so all the fouling stays in the bore where it belongs. Some attribute this to the 'bottleneck' shape, but frankly, the taper on 44-40 is so slight that it has nothing to do with keeping the fouling out of the chamber. It is the thinness of the brass that does it. Both 45 Colt and 44-40 are so expensive to buy factory loaded that the CAS shooter must reload them or he will soon be in the poorhouse. I have not bought any factory loads of either recently, so I cannot compare prices. 44-40 brass can be more expensive to buy, depending on who's you buy. Winchester only sells it in bags of 50, compared to the 100 count bags they sell 45 Colt in, and if you do the math the 44-40 is more expensive. Starline seems to charge the same price for either caliber. As to the longevity of the brass, I find that 44-40 brass shoots for just as long as 45 Colt. One interesting thing is though, when a 45 Colt case splits, it usually splits all the way down the middle. Because of the thinness at the neck, I find that 44-40 tends to start with tiny little splits at the case mouth. As long as these splits are under 1/16" long, I keep right on reloading them. I trash them once the splits grow longer than 1/16". Because the necks are so thin, they are easily crushed if stepped on at a match. I keep a 50 caliber BMG round on my reloading bench to use as a 'neck rerounding tool'. It works quite well and will rescue all but the most badly crushed 44-40 necks. 44-40 rifle groove diameter has varied over the years. Originally it was set at .427, as opposed to 44 Russian and 44 Special which were .429. Most modern manufacturers are using .429 barrels for 44-40 today, Uberti included. Because of this, a bullet of .429 or .430 diameter may be best with modern barrels. This can sometimes cause some problems with tight chambers, so if a 'fat' bullet is required for the barrel, sometimes Winchester brass is best, since it has the thinnest of all 44-40 necks. Modern 44-40 brass will no longer hold 40 grains of Black Powder, because of the modern solid head design of the cases. The old balloon head cases would hold more. Same with 45 Colt. Depending on the brand of powder I am using I usually put between 34 and 37 grains of Black Powder in either case. I echo Garrison Joe's feelings about 44-40 in revolvers, which is why all my CAS revolvers are chambered for 45 Colt. I have no problem using two different calibers at the loading table, I try to pay attention to which gun I am putting which cartridges into. I also agree that 44-40 is the Mercedes Benz of the old Black Powder cartridges. Here is a photo of some cartridges to show a comparison of sizes. Most are old cartridges, a couple are my reloads. Left to right in the photo the cartridges are 44-40, 44 Special, 44 Russian, 44 S&W American, 44 Henry Rimfire, 45 Schofield, and 45 Colt. cartridges All I can say is, WOW! How much do I owe you? This was a real education I'm now dreaming of moving on to .44-.40. After the last daughter gets out of University Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Keeping the .44WCF and .45 Colt brass separate can be an adventure. I bought a .38WCF rifle to shoot with my .45 revolvers because of that challenge. I have rifles in .32WCF and .38WCF. When all of the websites have brass on backorder, I buy loaded cowboy ammo from Georgia Arms, as they use Starline brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Keeping the .44WCF and .45 Colt brass separate can be an adventure. I bought a .38WCF rifle to shoot with my .45 revolvers because of that challenge. I do it all the time. I tumble both my 45 Colt and 44-40 brass together because I dump them both into my rinse jug at the end of a match. After I rinse them out and air dry them they go right into the tumbler together. I sort them when they are done tumbling. It is no big deal to separate them, after a little while, it gets real easy to spot the difference between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Whiskers Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I shoot both 38's and 44-40.Mostly 38's because of cost and availability of brass and less overall reloading cost.When I do shoot the 44's I've never had a problem with a tight chamber in my 75 Remingtons.The only problem I've had along that line was with Starline brass.It seems the rim thickness was/is inconsistant and would drag when the cylinder was rotated.Haven't had a problem with that using Winchester brass.44-40 is a lot of fun to shoot and is a tad fussier reloading,but well worth the effort.For cost...hard to beat 38's.For more catagory choices...can't beat the 44-40 or 45 Colt.And pay attention to Driftwood's advice.When it comes to the 44-40 he knows what he's talking about as do most of the others that posted on this topic.....self excluded.I'm a relative newbie to reloading...only been doing it for about 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
German Jim Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Keeping the .44WCF and .45 Colt brass separate can be an adventure. I bought a .38WCF rifle to shoot with my .45 revolvers because of that challenge. When I got my Uberti '73 in .38WCF I did not have my .38WCF Colts yet and was still using my .45 revolvers. If I wasn't payin' attention I would stuff a .45 into my '73 and when that .45 got on the loading block, there went the stage! D&%N!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rodgers Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I love shooting the 44/40 cartridge in my rifles. It is very clean. I normally shoot the 44Russian in my pistols. It is short and very efficient with it's small case volume. The Russian is like shooting a 45 ACP. It is great for black powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 When I got my Uberti '73 in .38WCF I did not have my .38WCF Colts yet and was still using my .45 revolvers. If I wasn't payin' attention I would stuff a .45 into my '73 and when that .45 got on the loading block, there went the stage! D&%N!!!! Howdy Again Here is how I avoid doing that. Loading Block When I load my ammo, I put my 44-40 rounds in blue plastic boxes and my 45 Colt rounds in gray plastic boxes. Helps keep everything straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Howdy Again Here is how I avoid doing that. Loading Block When I load my ammo, I put my 44-40 rounds in blue plastic boxes and my 45 Colt rounds in gray plastic boxes. Helps keep everything straight. Hey, Driftwood, Naw! GREEN plastic boxes (wish I could find them nowadays...RCBS seems to have discontinued them), and BLACK or RED plastic boxes for .45 LC! A couple of recommendations: If you shoot .429-.430" bullets in Winchester .44-40 brass, substitute a .44 Magnum expander plug for the one normally sold with .44-40 dies. For .427-.428" bullets use the regular .44-40 expander plug. Also, regarding OM Ruger Vaqueros in .44-40, when shooting .429-.430" slugs, use Winchester brass. Check to see the rounds will chamber, especially in the #55-XXXXX and some #56-XXXX guns. Slug the throats of the chambers. Most will measure .425"! If so, you have two choices: either have the throats reamed to .431" OR leave them alone and shoot COMMERCIAL HARDCAST .430" bullets. No, they won't run the pressures up appreciably, and accuracy may surprise you. I get 1-5/8" groups at 25 yds. on the bench, with tight throats and .430" bullets. It takes about 7 percent more powder in a .44-40 to equal velocities in a .44 Extra-Long Russian at SASS-legal velocities (930 ft/sec). If you must reduce the loads, use Trail Boss. Watch for double charges with most other smokeless powders. Personally, I prefer Unique or Universal, but then my loads are as close to BP loads as you can get without exceeding 1,000 ft/sec. ROLL crimp the case mouth into the crimp groove enough so you can see the case mouth is curved, but not so much that you collapse the case away from the bullet's side. Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! Your Pard, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 WOW, that is a lot of great information, thank all of you. I currently shoot ruger OMVs in 44 mag so the 44/40 will likely use the same bullet for now and later I may convert the cylinders to match the rifle. I shoot a Marlin now but am trying to get faster with the rifle and I can run a '73 faster mostly because of the larger trigger guard. A friend let me try his a while ago and now I "need" one. Thanks for the help, Smokestack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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