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Marauder SASS #13056

Shoot like SASS in Defence?

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On Down Range TV is an interesting video about having a balance of speed and accuracy. Sort of like SASS.

Don't Shoot Small

 

I remember a top shooter was criticized at a match because he used ALL of the target.

 

The shooter responded that he knew he was going to hit when he pulled the trigger so he was more concerned with speed than a more accurate shoot.

 

Of course, with self defense the last thing you want to do is shoot standing still! All the more reason to have reasonable expectations rather than emphasize a tight group.

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I always thought more holes = more leakage, more damage.

Plus 1. If it ever comes to it, you'll get all I got just as fast as I kin give it to ye. Tha only thing that surprized me was tha guy in tha film wasn't bald and having a goatee.

 

 

RRR

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Plus 1. If it ever comes to it, you'll get all I got just as fast as I kin give it to ye. Tha only thing that surprized me was tha guy in tha film wasn't bald and having a goatee.

 

 

RRR

 

Ray, that's why I believe a person can't own enough .45s or 12 gauge shotguns.

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Howdy

 

here in Holland(Europe) selfdefence shooting is a subject you can't even mention.

i have my guns in a locked gunsafe an the ammo in an other gunsafe as it is requierd by law here.

so it will take me at least 2 minutes to get a handgun and ammo together(no full speedloaders or full magazines in the safe)

 

only things i can keep out of the gunsafe are my antiqeu guns, so for the" in case that" situation

i have a nice 10ga coachgun with nice short thick barrels, made in 1891,

and i have a choice of loads from rocksalt to 00 buckshot

 

the reloading time on a 10ga is long for personal defense but i can do it in less than a second

and on stopping power, i load a buckshot round with 18 balls of 00 buckshot with 120 grains of Swiss 2 behind it, (not a recomended load, this is even for my gun that has real thick barrels the maximum i dare to shoot)

 

lets hope we never have to use it

 

Dutch Bear

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I have never known anyone who tried to shoot a tight group in a real gunfight. And more than a few of them were experts who could take out the x-ring at the range.

I don't see the point in even talking about it really.

I think saying "shots anywhere on an assailant are good" is flawed and encourages a spray and pray mentality.

He's entitled to his opinion but I don't share it.

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I have never known anyone who tried to shoot a tight group in a real gunfight. And more than a few of them were experts who could take out the x-ring at the range.

I don't see the point in even talking about it really.

I think saying "shots anywhere on an assailant are good" is flawed and encourages a spray and pray mentality.

He's entitled to his opinion but I don't share it.

 

 

Amen!

 

 

RRR

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+1 if that is the approach to training during a totally non stress situation, imagine what will happen when the sh*t hits the fan.

 

Proper training and the proper use of techniques should help in reducing shot groups while picking up speed even in point/combat shooting with both eyes open.

 

 

 

I have never known anyone who tried to shoot a tight group in a real gunfight. And more than a few of them were experts who could take out the x-ring at the range.

I don't see the point in even talking about it really.

I think saying "shots anywhere on an assailant are good" is flawed and encourages a spray and pray mentality.

He's entitled to his opinion but I don't share it.

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Speed is always good - BUT - accuracy is final !!!!!

 

+1 You can be fast, but if you don't hit the target what's the point???

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What I took away from the video is that balance is the most important.

 

Saying "accuracy is final" is evidently what he is trying to combat - the idea that you have to have the perfect shot. That can be almost as bad as spray and pray. An emphasis on accuracy that takes too long endangers the officer's life. Just as "spray and pray" endangers everyone's life!

 

I know from training with one police force and talking with a trainer for another force, they challenge teach that balance. Certainly, they warn and teach against "spray and pray" but the other problem they experience is officers who won't fire until they have that near perfect shot. In that way, "accuracy can be final" because the shooter never gets off a shot!

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but what the fella was saying made sense to me - shoot center of mass - of the mass that is presented to you. Sort of like what they claim Wyatt Earp said, "Take your time, real fast."

 

And certainly, don't just stand there!

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Always kind of figured if I can get 4 off before you can get 1 off - even if I miss 2 of them...

I still win.

 

That's why my carry gun holds thirteen 45 caliber rounds - I only got to hit'cha with a couple of 'em.

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...only things i can keep out of the gunsafe are my antique guns, so for the" in case that" situation...
Interesting that you should say that. One of my friends use to carry a cap and ball revolver as his concealed carry pistol in Texas before the state enacted concealed carry. Under Texas law at the time, a cap and ball pistol was not considered a weapon and was therefore legal to carry.

 

I doubt your problem could be so easily resolved.

 

Anyway, with a blackpowder pistol even if you do not hit you adversary you can escape in the smoke!!

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It's funny, at Goshen Enterprises http://www.goshen-hexsite.com/index2.htm they have a lot to say about defensive use with a handgun. You train and train using a proper sight picture shooting at paper targets all day long and yet when the poop hits the fan, most folks say that the sights were the last things on their mind. Their focus was entirely on the threat (as it should be). Of course Goshen is trying to sell their innovative sight package (worth a look), but their research makes a lot of sense. Take a read throughout the site and see what you think. It makes a lot of sense, what they have to say about training and flustered reactions and sight pictures. Smithy.

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Keep in mind you will almost certainly be held criminally and/or civilly liable for any miss that injures or kills an innocent bystander

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Dutch Bear- It always stuns me when I hear about the use of force rules (nonuse? in Europe. Waht a pitiful situation that is so disrespectful of good citizens' rights. I heard that "Dutch Loading" a revolver means that the first bullet is a blank, second is a tear gas, 3rd is rubber, 4th birdshot and then 2 real ones so that one avoids hurting the perpetrator as much as possible. is this true?

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I've never been in a gunfight or fired at gun at anybody. Even though in CAS we admonish "Front sight, front sight," I suspect that in a real life and death gunfight my total focus would be on the assailant and not on the gun sights. So I've always wondered, how much advantage would there be for laser grips that put a red dot where the gun is pointing--or would I likely not see it either?

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Laser sights make people feel good, but are not really neccessary. Most times when a gun is used in self defense the distance is not more than 10 feet. If you need a laser to hit someone at ten feet, well...

 

Dutch Bear - a 10 gauge double is an awesome self defense weapon. I recon it would work just fine!

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A question: how many here carry a single action revolver as a self-defense weapon?

 

If you are good with it, no matter what kind of gun, I think that is all that matters.

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Always kind of figured if I can get 4 off before you can get 1 off - even if I miss 2 of them...

I still win.

One of the points hammered home in my training is knowing what's beyond your target. What - or who - are those two misses going to hit? They have to land somewhere. And that can make a difference on whether you spend several years behind bars. At a minimum you're going to need a truckload of money for legal fees.

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Always kind of figured if I can get 4 off before you can get 1 off - even if I miss 2 of them...

I still win.

 

That's why my carry gun holds thirteen 45 caliber rounds - I only got to hit'cha with a couple of 'em.

 

 

Presuming you have time to launch all 13rds plus the semi doesn't kickup after the first shot. Semi's have been known to do that. You may have only a single shot semi auto. Best you make your 1st shot count and the rest are bonus shots.

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One of the points hammered home in my training is knowing what's beyond your target. What - or who - are those two misses going to hit?

 

 

I am a Nevada CCW instructor and I tell my students that you are responsible for that round from the time it leaves the muzzle till the time it comes to a stop.

But... Unlike range training or hunting - You may not be able to wait until there is a "Safe Backstop" behind the person intent on harming you or your loved ones.

 

Whatever you do in practice - you will do in real life, just not as well. If you are examining your backstop, aligning sights, controlling your breathing and perfecting your stance - you will do all of that when it counts.

And all of that takes time - 10ths, 100ths, and 1000ths of a second count for more in a gunfight than they do in our game.

 

Lastly - from my research (since I have never been shot at) I believe, when someone is shooting AT YOU - Your "marksmanship" skills diminish quickly (ergo, the guy you're shooting at , his skills will diminish as well, if you're throwing rounds at him)

This aint Dodge city and you aint Bill Hickock.

This is survival.

I am getting off the first shot - Because usually the first shooter wins.

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My CCW teacher is experienced in actual LEO combat situations. He tried to make us all drop to one knee before firing the first shot. Upward angle of the bullet is not apt to ham anyone behind the perp.

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My CCW teacher is experienced in actual LEO combat situations. He tried to make us all drop to one knee before firing the first shot. Upward angle of the bullet is not apt to ham anyone behind the perp.

 

As a general rule, I'd disagree with that. The first thing it does is anchor you to the ground and take away mobility. Stationary targets are easier to hit.

 

Proper selection of ammunition will alleviate over penetration. Not discharging a round until you are sure of your target and the background will take care of the rest.

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Hmmm... good idea, dropping to one knee. Now I have not only given my opponent an extra second or two to shoot me, I have lost all of my mobility and probably some of my balance! Sorry, 13 years as an Armored Truck driver and 5 years as a Deputy Sheriff taught me that you practice hitting anything from any angle. No tricks, no special moves, just good ole fashioned practice. If you HIT the guy it doesn't matter who is behind them.

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A question: how many here carry a single action revolver as a self-defense weapon?

 

If you are good with it, no matter what kind of gun, I think that is all that matters.

 

Oh please don't start the SAA CCW discussion again.

Pleeeese :lol:

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My CCW teacher is experienced in actual LEO combat situations. He tried to make us all drop to one knee before firing the first shot. Upward angle of the bullet is not apt to ham anyone behind the perp.

 

Interesting technique. Not one I'd use though. <_<

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Lawman Mark types faster than me. I agree completely.

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Presuming you have time to launch all 13rds plus the semi doesn't kickup after the first shot. Semi's have been known to do that. You may have only a single shot semi auto. Best you make your 1st shot count and the rest are bonus shots.

The old "that automatic will get you killed" argument... I know that there are folks still carrying wheelguns on and off duty, but there are several Brazillian police officers and soldiers world wide that carry auto pistols. The last "jammed handgun" report I remember seeing (there are several) was a revolver...struck by a bullet that hit the cylinder.

 

Give it a rest.

 

 

 

http://www.texasescapes.com/MikeCoxTexasTales/Marshal-Pitman.htm

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/268168_shootingfollow27.html

 

 

 

 

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What I took away from the video is that balance is the most important.

Saying "accuracy is final" is evidently what he is trying to combat - the idea that you have to have the perfect shot. That can be almost as bad as spray and pray. An emphasis on accuracy that takes too long endangers the officer's life. Just as "spray and pray" endangers everyone's life!

I know from training with one police force and talking with a trainer for another force, they challenge teach that balance. Certainly, they warn and teach against "spray and pray" but the other problem they experience is officers who won't fire until they have that near perfect shot. In that way, "accuracy can be final" because the shooter never gets off a shot!

Maybe I'm wrong, but what the fella was saying made sense to me - shoot center of mass - of the mass that is presented to you. Sort of like what they claim Wyatt Earp said, "Take your time, real fast."

And certainly, don't just stand there!

Uncommon good sense.

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Dutch Bear- It always stuns me when I hear about the use of force rules (nonuse? in Europe. Waht a pitiful situation that is so disrespectful of good citizens' rights. I heard that "Dutch Loading" a revolver means that the first bullet is a blank, second is a tear gas, 3rd is rubber, 4th birdshot and then 2 real ones so that one avoids hurting the perpetrator as much as possible. is this true?

i heard of the saying, but i have never heard of anyone loading that way.but it is a good discription of the way it is here in holland.(most of the Dutch poeple don't know the story of "the boy and the dyke", i think this one is in the same category)

the chances of me being conficted of murder when i shoot someone in self defence are about 75%, why?

if i can get to a gun and ammo fast enough to use it in self defence the judge will say, "you had it planed as you couldn't have done that as the gun and the ammo were propperly stored"

So i have loaded a couple of rounds with rocksalt, but when there is no other way out i will use the buckshoy ones

 

they take it so far that the dutch goverment had to special order the last 2 models of the standard police pistol

because one of te specs. is that the gun has to have a first shot trigger pull of over 10 or12 pounds.

 

as i said, i hope i never have to use my guns that way, but having guns in the house can also make you a target, so i like to be preparred

 

Greets

Dutch Bear

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When I was growing up a wrestling coach (a former military guy) told us we were going to "wrestle like we train and to train like we wrestle." I have since learned that the coach's saying is a variation of "fight like you train and train like you fight." My relevant and recent handgun "training" is almost exclusively cowboy shooting. I suspect if I am ever in a gun fight (God I hope not) I will shoot like I am shooting CAS. That means I will probably be killed because we don't do much cover or any movement in CAS. It also means I will probably kill the bad guy with one or more quick center mass shots, because like virtually everybody on the Wire, I shoot fast straight enough to hit steel at reasonable ranges most of the time. My guess is that when they have to act most Cowboy Shooters aren't going to spray, freeze or over aim. If push comes to shove they will take the shot. Their Cowboy training will simply take over.

 

It is not surprising that Cowboy Action Shooters actually follow the recommendations found in the article. The people who started Action Shooting or Practical Shooting in the first place were trying to find a fun way to teach gunfighting techniques, and the people who started SASS were Practical Shooters who wanted to have fun with cowboy guns and costumes.

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When I was growing up a wrestling coach (a former military guy) told us we were going to "wrestle like we train and to train like we wrestle." I have since learned that the coach's saying is a variation of "fight like you train and train like you fight." My relevant and recent handgun "training" is almost exclusively cowboy shooting. I suspect if I am ever in a gun fight (God I hope not) I will shoot like I am shooting CAS. That means I will probably be killed because we don't do much cover or any movement in CAS. It also means I will probably kill the bad guy with one or more quick center mass shots, because like virtually everybody on the Wire, I shoot fast straight enough to hit steel at reasonable ranges most of the time. My guess is that when they have to act most Cowboy Shooters aren't going to spray, freeze or over aim. If push comes to shove they will take the shot. Their Cowboy training will simply take over.

 

It is not surprising that Cowboy Action Shooters actually follow the recommendations found in the article. The people who started Action Shooting or Practical Shooting in the first place were trying to find a fun way to teach gunfighting techniques, and the people who started SASS were Practical Shooters who wanted to have fun with cowboy guns and costumes.

 

 

Well, Cowboy Shooters do not train tactically or under any stress. With no thought to movement and cover you have a slim chance of survival. The bad guys usually get off the first shot statistically and if you stand there like your shooting steel I'm afraid your life expectancy will be short.

 

My dear friends, if you want a chance to survive a gunfight and you carry a concealed weapon, please please get some tactical training from a good professional source. SASS will not prepare you for an armed encounter anymore than pitching baseball will prepare you to toss hand grenades. Similar in appearance but seriously different in practice

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