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Ace_of_Hearts

You make the call

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I draw your attention to the pocket RO card at the back of the RO ! handbook

 

DROPPED GUN UNLOADED AND EMPTY - STAGE DQ

or

Open, empty long guns that slip and fall but don’t break 170 or sweep anyone - Minor Safety

 

Situation - Second long gun is placed on the loading table. Gun falls off table before loading begins. Final resting place is pointed at side berm with action closed.

I called it a SDQ......

Match director changed call to Minor Safety

 

It is overlapping rules like these that confuse the heck out of shooters.

 

What's your call?

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MSV benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

Or we call that the weakness/inconsistency of our rules goes to the shooter.

 

They should be the same penalty.

But i wonder if they could be different at the loading table.

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If the rifle was open and empty when it fell...MSV.

 

:mellow:

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No call.

 

The firearm was NOT loaded - Had not been loaded yet.

The rules for dropped guns apply from the loading table to the unloading table.

 

As far as I am concerned - until the shooter places the first round into the firearm - their "stage" has not yet begun - they have not made use of the loading table and a dropped firearm is exactly the same as if they had dropped the gun between their cart and the table. No call.

 

I would make exactly the same call at the unloading table AFTER the shooter has been cleared by another shooter. After the last empty is cleared from the gun - their "stage" is complete. Any gun dropped after that time is no call.

 

I believe the rule is intended to deal with the firearms condition - not it's geographical position.

Safe to drop 6 inches from the table - penalty for contacting the table.

The penalty exists during the stage because a firearm is being dropped without the verification that is it empty.

The firearm behind the line or coming to the loading table or even setting on the loading table PRIOR to being loaded has been verified as being unloaded.

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Did the loading table fall with it? (Had to ask, just to be sure)! :mellow:

 

Ok, had to ask. What Phantom said. And by implication, if the action was closed before it fell... SDQ.

 

DON'T LEAVE UNATTENDED GUNS AT LOADING TABLE.

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page 27 of the shooters manual - 22. A dropped unloaded gun on the firing line (loading table to unloading table) results in the

shooter’s disqualification from the stage. A dropped loaded firearm results in a match

disqualification. A shooter may not pick up a dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover

the gun, examine it, clear it, and return it to the shooter.

 

My problem is the RO card the contradicts this call if the gun "slips and falls". Slips and falls from what? The table? A rack? Or the shooters hand?

 

What if the shooter was careless in setting the gun down or just didn't watch what he was doing when setting it down so the gun did not "slip and fall" but was improperly placed and never really came to rest on the table?

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From the ROI:

 

"23. Any unloaded gun dropped during a stage will result in Stage Disqualification. Dropped

unloaded guns away from the line will be a no call. A shooter is forbidden from picking up a

dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover the gun, examine it, clear it (if necessary),

return it to the shooter, and assess the penalty. A dropped loaded gun is a Match Disqualification.

An open, empty long gun that slips and falls after being set down and does not

break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone will result in either a “Prop Failure” call or a

10-second Minor Safety Violation, depending upon the circumstance.

As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered as still in their control.

No call should be made until the firearm comes to rest – wherever that may be. Then

determine the condition of the firearm at rest and whether or not the 170° safety rule was

ever broken on its way to its final resting point in order to assess the proper penalty (if any at

all)."

 

Did it fall AFTER being set down? If so, MSV. It is not really dropped if it was set down and then fell after being set down.

 

Best Regards,

BJT

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page 27 of the shooters manual - 22. A dropped unloaded gun on the firing line (loading table to unloading table) results in the

shooter’s disqualification from the stage. A dropped loaded firearm results in a match

disqualification. A shooter may not pick up a dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover

the gun, examine it, clear it, and return it to the shooter.

 

My problem is the RO card the contradicts this call if the gun "slips and falls". Slips and falls from what? The table? A rack? Or the shooters hand?

 

So - doesn't it say to refer to other SASS manuals for further clarification???

 

:mellow:

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page 27 of the shooters manual - 22. A dropped unloaded gun on the firing line (loading table to unloading table) results in the

shooter’s disqualification from the stage. A dropped loaded firearm results in a match

disqualification. A shooter may not pick up a dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover

the gun, examine it, clear it, and return it to the shooter.

 

My problem is the RO card the contradicts this call if the gun "slips and falls". Slips and falls from what? The table? A rack? Or the shooters hand?

 

What if the shooter was careless in setting the gun down or just didn't watch what he was doing when setting it down so the gun did not "slip and fall" but was improperly placed and never really came to rest on the table?

That applies to a gun considered on the firing line, between loading and unloading table, not from gun cart to loading table.

RO I page 25

STAGE DISQUALIFICATION

• Any dropped unloaded gun on the firing line (between the loading table and the

unloading table).

 

Jefro

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The first gun was placed on the loading table already (Please read original post). Therefore the shooter is ON THE FIRING LINE for the purposes of the rules applying.

Under Glossary of terms - Firing line – From first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as

cleared at the unloading table.

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"gun falls off table"

 

MSV

 

"Dropped" to me implies from the shooters body... hand or holster.

 

Falls to me says from a staged position, rack or table.

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The first gun was placed on the loading table already (Please read original post). Therefore the shooter is ON THE FIRING LINE for the purposes of the rules applying.

Under Glossary of terms - Firing line – From first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as

cleared at the unloading table.

 

 

I missed that one.

My bad.

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And why is the rule SPECIAL to long guns.

 

An unloaded pistol that slips is not any more dangerous than an unloaded long gun that slips!

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The first gun was placed on the loading table already (Please read original post). Therefore the shooter is ON THE FIRING LINE for the purposes of the rules applying.

Under Glossary of terms - Firing line – From first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as

cleared at the unloading table.

 

 

____________________

So when does the stage begin? When the first gun is laid, second or all pistols? Or when the first round goes in the first gun?

Old Mind wants to know, when does it REALLY start?

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The other interesting part of the manuals on this issue is to read page RO 1, Page 25 section on SDQs and see that if the gun slips and breaks 170 it is a SDQ.

While if it slips and doesn't sweep and is in 170 it is a MSV.

 

Was this gun "dropped" or did it "slip"?

Dropped (RO1 page 30 glossary section) implies that it went from shooters hand to spot not intended.

 

Perhaps we need more details as to how it made it to the ground.

IE did it come to rest safely from shooters hands to the table? and then was it bumped etc?

 

For if it was still in motion from the shooters hands till it came to rest ont he ground than it would be termed dropped and that would be a SDQ.

 

The fact that when it came to rest it was closed may also be reason to consider the SDQ.

The MSV phrasing RO1 page 25, says open yet this gun was closed.

 

Open, empty long guns that slip and fall but do not break 170° safety rule or sweep anyone.

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The first gun was placed on the loading table already (Please read original post). Therefore the shooter is ON THE FIRING LINE for the purposes of the rules applying.

Under Glossary of terms - Firing line – From first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as

cleared at the unloading table.

Ok :wacko: , yer correct. Daves gotta point, there appears to be a difference between dropped and fall (slipped). Looks like fall-slipped applies only to long guns :mellow: Another point they need to clear up, rule says ("between" the loading table and the unloading table), Glossary says "from"

 

RO I page 25

Minor Safety Penalties

• Open, empty long guns that slip and fall but do not break 170° safety rule or sweep anyone.

 

However in the OP, you said after the fall the action was closed, does that change things?? Or does this rule only apply to the 170??

RO I page 19

23. No call should be made until the firearm comes to rest – wherever that may be. Then determine the condition of the firearm at rest and whether or not the 170° safety rule was ever broken on its way to its final resting point in order to assess the proper penalty (if any at all)."

 

"gun falls off table"

 

MSV

 

"Dropped" to me implies from the shooters body... hand or holster.

 

Falls to me says from a staged position, rack or table.

I'm gonna guess BOD to the shooter, MSV. It's obvious it's time for a review and rewrite of the rules.

 

Jefro ;)

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Now we have to clear up the dropped VS falls issue..........

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According to the shooter (nobody else saw what happened) he placed the SECOND long gun on the table when there was not sufficient room for it and it fell when he released it.......

 

 

Isn't YOU MAKE THE CALL fun?

(Especially when you can't think about it for two hours first!)

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The last post indicated that the shooter didn't actually have room to lay the gun down,that's why it fell,which would mean he was perhaps two shooters down from "loading" ,so hears the question I have ,since he was not the shooter in position to load his firearm, was he on the firing line? Do the rules cover a shooter(or perhaps a better word,participant) who is not yet in the position to load his firearm ? In a perfect world ,we would have the shooter who is ready to shoot(loaded and waiting)and the next shooter who is loading and no one else at the loading table,but as we all know it very seldom works that way(have seen three or more at the loading table) So I guess another way of asking the question is if someone has their firearms on the loading table but have not closed the action and begun the process of loading,are they in fact on the firing line as per the rules?

This is one of the reasons the rule book keeps getting thicker ,clarification of rules, we don't all understand the original intent of the rule as written so we make assumptions/misinterpretations,may be one of those things that if it happens to you, take your lumps with the way it's done where you are.

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Why did it "slip and fall"? Did it slide off the table due to gravity, position of the table (at a angle), slick surface of the table top after the shooter released his grip on the it ? If so this would be a prop failure.

 

Or was it because the shooter only partially placed it on the table? Shooter error.

 

Or because another shooter moved the gun? Shooter interverence.

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According to the shooter (nobody else saw what happened) he placed the SECOND long gun on the table when there was not sufficient room for it and it fell when he released it.......

 

 

Isn't YOU MAKE THE CALL fun?

(Especially when you can't think about it for two hours first!)

 

 

That sounds like a drop to me.

 

Was not room. He let go and it DROPPED.

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Kinda makes me wonder if situations like this is why R0II can no longer teach R0I course.

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According to the shooter (nobody else saw what happened) he placed the SECOND long gun on the table when there was not sufficient room for it and it fell when he released it.......Isn't YOU MAKE THE CALL fun?

(Especially when you can't think about it for two hours first!)

 

 

I hate to use the word "negligence" but, that's what this sounds like to me. If the shooter knew there wan't enough room, he should have never attempted to place his guns on the table. For that reason I'd make it a SDQ. :mellow:

 

But I'd sure give the shooter a big pat on the back for cowboying up and admitting the error. ;)

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this year at the TG convention

we actually herd the words common cents,,,,,,use it,,,,,applie it (and not FIRST by the TG's, BUT THE fellers speaking)

 

lets see a feller puts a gun on a table that does not have enought room?

huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuum,

 

sounds like trouble to me

hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

give em a penatly, hang em, or what ever

 

no wait benifit of the doubt

prop failure, cuz the table was to short

huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmm

 

 

you make the calls with ONE dementionial typing,

makes it hard to apply common cents as applied to the in-0-dent, at the time of the crime

maybe the table had show on it.....teeeeeeeee-heeeeeeeeeeeee

yikes

I aint even had coffe yet this morning

I will NOW

back away from the puter :wacko::ph34r::excl:

 

right-wrong-or-indifferent

had I had to make the call, I would say Minor safetly, cus a shooter should know how much room his long gun needs, lesser of the evils to teach em there aint no free lunch

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And why is the rule SPECIAL to long guns.

 

An unloaded pistol that slips is not any more dangerous than an unloaded long gun that slips!

 

There used to be a lot more vertical staging then we have now. Some of it was not very stable (like leaning the rifle against a fence post). The rules also used read a little differently.....

 

From the 2005 RO1...

21. Any unloaded gun dropped during a stage will result in Stage Disqualification. Dropped unloaded guns away from the line will be a no call. A shooter is forbidden from picking up a dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover the gun, examine it, clear it (if necessary), return it to the shooter, and assess the penalty. A dropped loaded gun is a Match Disqualification. An open, empty long gun that slips and falls after carefully being set down at the end of a shooting string and does not break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone will result in either a "Prop Failure" call or a 10-second Minor Safety Violation, depending upon the circumstance. An empty long gun carelessly staged that falls will result in a Stage Disqualification.

 

The word CAREFULLY was removed because in all reality it is very subjective. Also the last part about CARELESSLY staged resulting in a SDQ was removed all together.....again very subjective.

 

That is how it morphed into what we have today.

 

Now that we have mostly horizontal staging this exception really isn't necessary.

 

IMHO dropping any unloaded gun should result in a SDQ which would be easy to explain and ENFORCE.

 

Stan

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It would seem to me to be a Stage DG per RO2, if you go to the Glossary of terms it happened on the Firing Line.

RO 2

STAGE DISQUALIFICATION

• Any dropped unloaded gun on the firing line (between the loading table and the

unloading table).

 

From the glossary of terms in the RO 2 book.

Firing line – From first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as

cleared at the unloading table.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Randy

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It would seem to me to be a Stage DG per RO2, if you go to the Glossary of terms it happened on the Firing Line.

RO 2

STAGE DISQUALIFICATION

• Any dropped unloaded gun on the firing line (between the loading table and the

unloading table).

 

From the glossary of terms in the RO 2 book.

Firing line – From first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as

cleared at the unloading table.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Randy

DANG... I looked and looked for that quote! I 'thought' it read from when "GUNS" are placed on the loading table. But, from the FIRST FIREARM PLACED ON THE LOADING TABLE gives it all the interpretation needed.

 

Thanks, Randy, for doing the research. Great (and new!) You make the call!

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In my quest for an answer here ............

 

IF a dropped empty gun on the FIRING LINE (as defined by in the glossary) is a Stage DQ.

 

Then when and under what circumstances does the specific rule that applies only to open and empty long guns that don't break the 170 supersede the Dropped gun rule? And why shouldn't this apply to revolvers that slip and fall also? ie - placing empty revolvers on the loading table.

 

(One would think that a gun that SLIPS off a table, rack, prop would come under poorly designed prop and result in a no call or is this where careless placement on a good prop comes into play)

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it is stated all the time and restated

 

SASS-CAS can not make rules to cover every single thing that may or may-have---not-yet happened

 

make the best use of the rules we have, and come to a conclusion

when one or more rules apply

then maybe the lesser of the evils revail,

but then again

maybe not depending of the severity of the hangin offence

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In my quest for an answer here ............

 

IF a dropped empty gun on the FIRING LINE (as defined by in the glossary) is a Stage DQ.

 

Then when and under what circumstances does the specific rule that applies only to open and empty long guns that don't break the 170 supersede the Dropped gun rule? And why shouldn't this apply to revolvers that slip and fall also? ie - placing empty revolvers on the loading table.

 

(One would think that a gun that SLIPS off a table, rack, prop would come under poorly designed prop and result in a no call or is this where careless placement on a good prop comes into play)

If you read the current RO1 the word CARELESS is NOT there, as I stated in my earlier post....it used to be there and it was REMOVED.

 

Was the Action Open and Empty?

Did the long gun stay within the 170?

Was NO ONE swept by the fallen gun?

 

When the answer to all 3 questions is YES then the dropped gun rule is superseded.

 

It shouldn't apply to the pistols because that is not specifically stated in the rules.

 

Stan

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