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Dubious Don #56333

You Make The Call

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The stage is: From POS 1 shoot pistol(s) From POS 2 shoot rifle, from POS 3 shoot S1 & S2. Move to POS 4 and shoot S3 & S4.

 

Shooter gets to POS3, shoots S1& 2. Both fall. Ejects empties, reloads and closes double. RO yells move, move! Shooter does as told, moves to POS 4 and shoots S3 & S4.

 

Please circle the correct answer:

 

A. RO interference for imporoper coaching, shooter gets a reshoot and no penalty.

 

B. Shooter should be smart enough to know he's not to supposed to move with a "loaded" shotgun and should have figured out how to fix it. Give'em a SDQ.

 

C. Shooter is a big dumb galoot and should quit whining on the Wire and take his DQ like a cowboy! :D:blink::rolleyes:

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Unfortunately, B and C. Safety penalties don't get erased with a reshoot and carry over.

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"B" anyhow, you didn't say how big he was? "A" sounds reasonable, but................

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Unfortunately, B and C. Safety penalties don't get erased with a reshoot and carry over.

 

He's a BIG guy but he's clumsy, slow and a pretty poor shot! :rolleyes:

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Hi Don,

 

It galls me; but IIRC, PWB said SDQ, which would be B.

 

I have seen a MD at an annual match tell the shooter she could have a reshoot or drop the penalty.

 

Consistency is a good thing. I think this should be A.

 

If this was you, sorry. You still have every right to ask the question!

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Guest diablo slim shootist

Are his initials DD? :rolleyes:

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The answer is C.........unless shooter renounces his membership in the BDG whiners club............in that case B :rolleyes:

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Unfortunately, B and C. Safety penalties don't get erased with a reshoot and carry over.

 

 

Yep. It happens. I won't likely forget the time I told a cowboy "on the boardwalk" when he drew his pistol and stopped short of the proper position. I couldn't see he'd already cocked the gun, but did see the cocked gun as he took two steps. SDQ right there.

 

It is up to the SHOOTER to know he's got a cocked gun and refuse to move with it. As bad as an RO feels when he gives coaching at odds with a SAFETY situation, the shooter HAS TO be aware enough not to move with a cocked gun.

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Hi Don,

 

It galls me; but IIRC, PWB said SDQ, which would be B.

 

I have seen a MD at an annual match tell the shooter she could have a reshoot or drop the penalty.

 

Consistency is a good thing. I think this should be A.

 

If this was you, sorry. You still have every right to ask the question!

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Allie, I am surprized at your "it should be A" thoughts. Suppose a shooter stops short, the RO yells "move up" and the shooter runs to the next location with a cocked gun, falls and his gun goes off? Safety has to trump everything, even "bad" coaching, and EVERY shooter has to be drilled NEVER to move (beyond the basketball rule) with a cocked gun, PERIOD. The seeming harsh inflexibility of this rule reflects that.

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Allie, I am surprized at your "it should be A" thoughts. Suppose a shooter stops short, the RO yells "move up" and the shooter runs to the next location with a cocked gun, falls and his gun goes off? Safety has to trump everything, even "bad" coaching, and EVERY shooter has to be drilled NEVER to move (beyond the basketball rule) with a cocked gun, PERIOD. The seeming harsh inflexibility of this rule reflects that.

Hi Jack,

 

:rolleyes: Yikes! That would be bad. :blink:

 

I just wish all folks would make the same calls.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Had shooter on our posse (different than Don) and same stage today apparently. He was given a SDQ for same exact offense including RO saying move-shooter moved with loaded cocked gun. At the next stage a shooter asked me a question I did not have an immediate answer for tho. Shooter has an external hammer double, loads two rounds but doesn't cock the hammers. Can he move that way? I said no as you can not move with a pistol for example with hammer down on an unfired round

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B.

:rolleyes:

 

I have seen a MD at an annual match tell the shooter she could have a reshoot or drop the penalty.

 

Consistency is a good thing. I think this should be A.

If a Range Officer elects not to penalize a shooter that has not complied with a rule, the effect is penalizing all other match participants that did comply.
ROI p.15

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Had shooter on our posse (different than Don) and same stage today apparently. He was given a SDQ for same exact offense including RO saying move-shooter moved with loaded cocked gun. At the next stage a shooter asked me a question I did not have an immediate answer for tho.

Shooter has an external hammer double, loads two rounds but doesn't cock the hammers. Can he move that way?

NO

I said no as you can not move with a pistol for example with hammer down on an unfired round

That's why.

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Had shooter on our posse (different than Don) and same stage today apparently. He was given a SDQ for same exact offense including RO saying move-shooter moved with loaded cocked gun. At the next stage a shooter asked me a question I did not have an immediate answer for tho. Shooter has an external hammer double, loads two rounds but doesn't cock the hammers. Can he move that way? I said no as you can not move with a pistol for example with hammer down on an unfired round

 

What makes'ya think I was talkin' about me, kid? :blink:

Certainly ol' Dubious is smart enough to open the durned gun, shuffle a little bit and then close it again to shoot..... :rolleyes:

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What makes'ya think I was talkin' about me, kid? :blink:

Certainly ol' Dubious is smart enough to open the durned gun, shuffle a little bit and then close it again to shoot..... :rolleyes:

 

Or the shooter could have moved one foot only in a giant stretch to get his body mostly into the 2nd shotgun position, keeping one foot planted and fired two rounds from the 2nd shotgun position. Now the shooter may not have had long legs like Don.

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It's B shooter should have opened the double, did not need to shuck the live ones just open it and then move. SDQ. RO is not responsible for shooter who should know better.

 

 

TB

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The "move" command is given to prevent a procedural. It doesn't mean point the gun at the crowd and move. It doesn't mean stick the barrel in your mouth and move. It doesn't mean put live rounds under the hammer and move. It simply mean to "move" safely.

 

In no way interference. In no way should the RO feel badly(even though we all do when this happens) We see the same situation when someone cocks a pistol from the wrong location.

 

It is still a SDQ. ...and entirely on the shooter.

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Had the EXACT same thing happen to me.

 

I moved !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I got my SDQ.

 

Went to unloading table and finished the match....

 

Took second place!

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The "move" command is given to prevent a procedural. It doesn't mean point the gun at the crowd and move. It doesn't mean stick the barrel in your mouth and move. It doesn't mean put live rounds under the hammer and move. It simply mean to "move" safely.

In no way interference. In no way should the RO feel badly(even though we all do when this happens) We see the same situation when someone cocks a pistol from the wrong location.

It is still a SDQ. ...and entirely on the shooter.

Aye, it's on the shooter, BUT... the RO should feel bad that his improper coaching garnered the shooter a SDQ. The Procedural is minor... the SDQ isn't.

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Aye, it's on the shooter, BUT... the RO should feel bad that his improper coaching garnered the shooter a SDQ. The Procedural is minor... the SDQ isn't.

I don't think the RO should necessarily feel bad. He saw the shooter starting to load in wrong position and said move to prevent the shooter from getting a P. What the shooter did after that is on the shooter.

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The "move" command is given to prevent a procedural. It doesn't mean point the gun at the crowd and move. It doesn't mean stick the barrel in your mouth and move. It doesn't mean put live rounds under the hammer and move. It simply mean to "move" safely.

 

In no way interference. In no way should the RO feel badly(even though we all do when this happens) We see the same situation when someone cocks a pistol from the wrong location.

 

It is still a SDQ. ...and entirely on the shooter.

 

Quite correct! The RO did feel bad, the shooter was only reacting to his command and did offer the shooter a reshoot without penalty. While not correct, there are times when this would be the right thing to do. For instance, when the shooter safely stages a long gun and through no fault of their own the PROP FAILS and dumps the gun on the ground in such a fashion as to cause a SDQ. After much consultation the shooter was offered a reshoot.

 

 

Or the shooter could have moved one foot only in a giant stretch to get his body mostly into the 2nd shotgun position, keeping one foot planted and fired two rounds from the 2nd shotgun position. Now the shooter may not have had long legs like Don.

 

Eh? Even MY legs ain't that long! The shooter did move one foot, kept the other one planted and attempted to open the shotgun. Unfortunately, he wasn't coordinated enough to do that and NOT move the other foot before the gun was open. Happened so fast the RO and spotters all said "did you do what I thought I saw you do, it happened too fast to see it" and of course, the shooter said yes, politely declined a reshoot and insisted on getting his SDQ. :unsure:

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I don't think the RO should necessarily feel bad. He saw the shooter starting to load in wrong position and said move to prevent the shooter from getting a P. What the shooter did after that is on the shooter.

 

Aye, it's on the shooter, BUT... the RO should feel bad that his improper coaching garnered the shooter a SDQ. The Procedural is minor... the SDQ isn't.

 

The RO did just fine. If he had said "Open it then move" would it have made a difference? Lets face it, when you deal with a shooter who is moving pretty fast, sometimes by the time you actually say what's on your mind, the shooter is already doing what he's going to do. In this particular case the RO shouldn't feel bad, but its ok that he does. I'd feel the same way, (have actually) so you're both right! :unsure:

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Unfortunately, B and C. Safety penalties don't get erased with a reshoot and carry over.

 

 

It is up to the SHOOTER to know he's got a cocked gun and refuse to move with it. As bad as an RO feels when he gives coaching at odds with a SAFETY situation, the shooter HAS TO be aware enough not to move with a cocked gun.

 

 

Agree with Doc and Jack! I concur about feeling bad BUT "Feelings get ya hurt"

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The stage is: From POS 1 shoot pistol(s) From POS 2 shoot rifle, from POS 3 shoot S1 & S2. Move to POS 4 and shoot S3 & S4.

 

 

C. Shooter is a big dumb galoot and should quit whining on the Wire and take his DQ like a cowboy! :ph34r::ph34r::unsure:

 

yup

 

you will always remimber this rule now!

 

no dq---------equals= no remimber

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As a RO I WOULD feel bad.....but the fact is you simply can't catch everything. Sometimes the shooter blocks your vision as they move and you can't see the guns 100% of the time. Sure, you try your best to do that and anticipate the sections where folks are likely to have trouble.....but again it's VERY hard to see everything for every shooter on every stage for every match. Add to the fact that this is a timed sport and some folks do things so fast that you’re lucky to get a word out even when you anticipate AND see things happen. My point is it stinks to miss an opportunity to "help" a shooter and as RO's we SHOULD be assisting the shooter to the very best of our ability but we are not flawless or perfect and the shooter has to bear some of the responsibility too.

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What makes'ya think I was talkin' about me, kid? :FlagAm:

Certainly ol' Dubious is smart enough to open the durned gun, shuffle a little bit and then close it again to shoot..... :unsure:

 

I was just looking at yesterday's scores and Don, you need to find that no account impostor using ur alias that was at the very bottom of the scores of 60 shooters yesterday! :ph34r:

 

Can you imagine someone doing such a dastardly deed? :ph34r:

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I was just looking at yesterday's scores and Don, you need to find that no account impostor using ur alias that was at the very bottom of the scores of 60 shooters yesterday! :ph34r:

 

Can you imagine someone doing such a dastardly deed? :unsure:

 

Hey now, I Could of got a SDQ for some other silly reason..... :ph34r:

 

I was funny though, I just get the gun closed and I hear the RO yelling move and I think oh yeah, next position. I move one feets, go to thumb the latch, my thumb slips off and guess what, I still move the OTHER leg before I git the dang gun open. Oops. I was offered a "improper coaching" but... I earned it and I want it! :FlagAm::FlagAm::D

 

 

As a RO I WOULD feel bad.....but the fact is you simply can't catch everything. Sometimes the shooter blocks your vision as they move and you can't see the guns 100% of the time. Sure, you try your best to do that and anticipate the sections where folks are likely to have trouble.....but again it's VERY hard to see everything for every shooter on every stage for every match. Add to the fact that this is a timed sport and some folks do things so fast that you’re lucky to get a word out even when you anticipate AND see things happen. My point is it stinks to miss an opportunity to "help" a shooter and as RO's we SHOULD be assisting the shooter to the very best of our ability but we are not flawless or perfect and the shooter has to bear some of the responsibility too.

 

And this is the BEST answer of'em all! As an RO, you can't catch everything and as bad as you might feel you "caused" a penalty, its on the shooter. Safeties carry over on reshoots anyway! (Well, usually)

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This exact same thing happened to me when I first started and I ended up with a SDQ. If the RO wouldn't have said anything, I would have had a procedural only as I was in the motion of bring the gun up to my shoulder. For new shooters, it's tough to remember everything.

 

I've thought about it, and I think the best thing for the RO to do is state a fact, like "WRONG POSITION FOR SHOTS 3&4". Then, the shooter can do what is appropriate or ask what to do, and the RO can tell him to shuck the live shells and move to the next position.

 

Cowboy Junky has a good point. The ROs are not perfect either. Just thinking... If the RO makes a bad coaching decision, should he or she just say "cease fire" and let the shooter unload, reload and reshoot? Or maybe, if the RO doesn't catch the shells going in the shotgun and the person is starting to shoot, don't say anything. When you're new, it's confusing enough and too much yelling doesn't help.

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you all need to realize that this is not improper coaching! shooter is in wrong spot, RO yells "move" that is CORRECT coaching.

the shooter is solely responsible for SDQ. does it suck for everyone involved? absolutely!

i hope PWB or BJZ will chime in here cause apparently many of you disagree. enforcing the rules whether or not you like them is how we get consistency.

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To expand on my original thoughts the rule about moving with a cocked gun is one of the first rules you learn and it is one we get reminded about often so I'll still feel bad about calling you, especially if your a very green newbie, but the shooter has to take responsibility some time and the sooner the better when it comes to safety!

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Say what???

Badlands has a "Plant then Poke" rule. No moving with a shotgun with shells in it.

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Badlands has a "Plant then Poke" rule. No moving with a shotgun with shells in it.

Why would that be? As long as gun is open it is hard for it to fire. Doesn't that put your shooters at a disadvantage when shooting at a club that uses SASS rules?

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