Need to try my '97s

[John Kloehr]

Not going to have time to fix my Stoeger any time soon, want to shoot next month. Thank God for cooler weather!

 

I have a pair of '97s in the back of the safe. I think they are Winchesters and date back to the 1950s. I can figure out cleaning, but have little experience shooting a pump (mostly SxS and semi-auto, a few boxes of bear loads through a Maverick 88), and no competition experience with a pump.

 

Bunch of (probably dumb) questions:

 

Are they safe with modern ammo or should I stick to no more than Winchester LNLR? I have Win LNLR #8 for competition.

 

Can the '97 shoot 00 or slugs? Reason being those are the only loads allowed at my nearby indoor range, I have to drive an hour to run small shot. I'll do so if advisable.

 

All the SASS videos I see show loading one at a time in the ejection port. Is using the magazine not allowed or just slow? Loading in the port will be a new skill for me.

 

I'm not out to be fast or fancy, just be safe and have fun. I want to practice some off the clock. Open to any advice to start out right with this platform.

[Blackwater 53393]

Check out Widder’s videos on shooting the ‘97.

 

He’s one of the masters!!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1950's...what? That's not considered "modern"?

 

Choosing acceptable loads are done the same way with a '97 as it is with any other SG.

 

Loading the magazine rules are in the rule book...some club allow stoking over the allowed SASS restrictions.

 

Phantom

[Eyesa Horg]

21 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Check out Widder’s videos on shooting the ‘97.

 

He’s one of the masters!!

Deuce Stevens as well.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

The only thing to worry about is the chamber length.   They used to measure them differently, and even if they are marked 2-3/4", they might be 2-5/8".   In that case, either shoot shorter shells, or have the chamber lengthened.   If yours are 1950's vintage, they are prolly okay, but I'd still check.

Or. well, since I shoot 2-1/2" all brass, it doesn't matter.   

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just now, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

If yours are 1950's vintage, they are prolly okay, but I'd still check

Probably????

 

🤣

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

The video above is excellent, as he is a world class shooter.

Video's by Deuce are also 1st class and very informative.  Deuce is also a world class shooter and know his firearms as well

as anyone.

 

Video's by Widder also are good and fun to watch.  There are 3 'Dry Fire' practice videos that are helpful with the 97.

 

The 97 ain't exactly slow.   A good 97 shooter can basically make it sound like a SxS, even with a single loading technique.

And some 97 shooters can make a semi auto shooter feel ashamed.

 

The Oak Ridge Outlaws are having their monthly 'TUESDAY' match tomorrow on the action pistol range.

Shooting begins at 9:30.     I plan to be there.   Bring your guns and ammo and join in on the fun.

Usually, only about 12-15 of us show up for this TUESDAY match.   We shoot 5 stages and have a blast.

Come join us.   There's enough fun for everyone!

 

Personally, I like the LNLR ammo for the SG.

 

..........Widder

 

[Mister Badly]

I run 1145 fps shells in mine. 

[John Kloehr]

11 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

The video above is excellent, as he is a world class shooter.

Video's by Deuce are also 1st class and very informative.  Deuce is also a world class shooter and know his firearms as well

as anyone.

 

Video's by Widder also are good and fun to watch.  There are 3 'Dry Fire' practice videos that are helpful with the 97.

 

The 97 ain't exactly slow.   A good 97 shooter can basically make it sound like a SxS, even with a single loading technique.

And some 97 shooters can make a semi auto shooter feel ashamed.

 

The Oak Ridge Outlaws are having their monthly 'TUESDAY' match tomorrow on the action pistol range.

Shooting begins at 9:30.     I plan to be there.   Bring your guns and ammo and join in on the fun.

Usually, only about 12-15 of us show up for this TUESDAY match.   We shoot 5 stages and have a blast.

Come join us.   There's enough fun for everyone!

 

Personally, I like the LNLR ammo for the SG.

 

..........Widder

 

Can't do today, I'm booked for the next two weeks. I'm eyeing the Saturday in November, might be able to show up for the November Tuesday instead or also.

[Sedalia Dave]

 

[John Kloehr]

16 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

1950's...what? That's not considered "modern"?

...

Loading the magazine rules are in the rule book...some club allow stoking over the allowed SASS restrictions.

More modern than hammer-welded barrels, but well before modern mass production.

 

Dug into the rules again and from page 26 looks like magazine loading (2 rounds) is OK. Dropping them in the port sure looks to be more fun.

 

"- Pump and lever action shotguns are not allowed to load more than two live rounds

at a time in the main match stages unless specified in the stage description. In

team events, shotguns may be loaded to their maximum magazine capacity."

[John Kloehr]

13 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

The only thing to worry about is the chamber length.   They used to measure them differently, and even if they are marked 2-3/4", they might be 2-5/8".   In that case, either shoot shorter shells, or have the chamber lengthened.   If yours are 1950's vintage, they are prolly okay, but I'd still check.

Or. well, since I shoot 2-1/2" all brass, it doesn't matter.   

I'll check. Also got a bag of empty shells with the pair of 97s, will check their length too. The seller was reloading for his use.

[Captain Clark]

44 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

More modern than hammer-welded barrels, but well before modern mass production.

 

 

Before “ mass” production? Winchester built over a 1,000,000 of them. I’m pretty sure they had the whole mass production technology handled after WWII production experience. A 1950s gun is a generally a modern firearm and safe , of course its overall use / abuse figures into it as well

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

If you can, try one like this...



Yes, that is a Black Diamond Trap model.   My most recent 97 acquisition and my current #1 main match shotgun.   It gets just as many stares for being what it is as it does for having the long barrel.   Finish may be ugly, but the action is as tight as I have ever seen on one of these guns.

[John Kloehr]

45 minutes ago, Captain Clark said:

Before “ mass” production? Winchester built over a 1,000,000 of them. I’m pretty sure they had the whole mass production technology handled after WWII production experience. A 1950s gun is a generally a modern firearm and safe , of course its overall use / abuse figures into it as well

There was a big change in the '80s and '90s due to Deming in Japan, SPC, 6-Sigma, CNC, and more. When comparing for instance a new(er) and old(er) Baretta  92fs, the old(er) has a hand-made look and feel as compared to the new(er) exacting precision. I actually like the older examples more.

 

Though by the '50s, manufacturing was approaching a century of experience with interchangeable parts, and several decades of doing so "at scale."

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

As I have stated in the past I don’t shoot a ‘97 other than Wild Bunch. I have several but all are Chinese knockoffs except for my wife’s, which is an early Winchester 1950 model. Not a collectible as it has been reblued. Barrel was shortened to 20”, LOP on the stock shortened to fit her, and the gunsmith who did the work recommended reaming the chamber and lengthening the forcing cone. Great advice!!! Using feather lites before and after being worked on, the difference was quite noticeable and my wife was actually able to shoot it once in a while. Don’t shoot it enough to know if working the chamber makes it last longer or safer, but do know that it is much more comfortable after the work. 
Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

14 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

More modern than hammer-welded barrels, but well before modern mass production.

 

Dug into the rules again and from page 26 looks like magazine loading (2 rounds) is OK. Dropping them in the port sure looks to be more fun.

 

"- Pump and lever action shotguns are not allowed to load more than two live rounds

at a time in the main match stages unless specified in the stage description. In

team events, shotguns may be loaded to their maximum magazine capacity."

Good lord...

 

Phantom 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

On 10/8/2024 at 8:29 AM, John Kloehr said:

 

 

Dug into the rules again and from page 26 looks like magazine loading (2 rounds) is OK. Dropping them in the port sure looks to be more fun.

 

 

 

A lot of that might depend on how the stage is written with regard to target order and placement.  

I have been known to load one in the port, fire it, and then stuff 2 in the magazine, racking the slide twice and then dropping the 4th in the open port.

Or a variation of the above, especially if there is a popper target.

[watab kid]

i rarely shoot my 97 , it was bought as a wild bunch gun [ive not decided to do that] and a backup , gun 

[Whitey James]

I just got started and was having trouble finding a 97 for a reasonable price and Cimarron had just re-released a 1887 lever shotgun for about $500 so I bought one. Still would like to find a decent 97 for WB. 

["Big Boston"]

Still on topic, the question was if you should stick to the LNLR or use Game and/or defensive loads. 

 

I'll quote Marauder SASS #13056  "One thing you can to to increase the life of the gun is to shoot only light target or softer ammo."

 

If you need to shoot buckshot, load some light loads and blast away. 

 

1950, for a 97, that's modern era. 

 

2 5/8" chamber, not likely. I'm curious, is the barrel marked? I think most if not all of my older ones, 1907 there abouts, are 2 3/4". However, back in the day the chamber was measures from the bolt face to the mid point on the forcing cone. The idea was that the mouth of the shell would seal better, keep the black powder bad stuff from getting back into the gun. 

 

Big Boston

[John Kloehr]

8 minutes ago, "Big Boston" said:

Still on topic, the question was if you should stick to the LNLR or use Game and/or defensive loads. 

 

I'll quote Marauder SASS #13056  "One thing you can to to increase the life of the gun is to shoot only light target or softer ammo."

 

If you need to shoot buckshot, load some light loads and blast away. 

 

1950, for a 97, that's modern era. 

 

2 5/8" chamber, not likely. I'm curious, is the barrel marked? I think most if not all of my older ones, 1907 there abouts, are 2 3/4". However, back in the day the chamber was measures from the bolt face to the mid point on the forcing cone. The idea was that the mouth of the shell would seal better, keep the black powder bad stuff from getting back into the gun. 

 

Big Boston

I'm leaning to driving the hour and shooting only LNLR. Mostly due to the absolute lack of support for running 00 Buck full power bear loads.

 

I'll also make some measurements of the chamber and look at the two big bags of reloadable shells the seller gave me. The two guns were a his-and-her pair from someone getting out of the sport,

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

This comes up every so often.  I have lots of firearms reference books and NONE of them say that 12 gauge Model 97s were ever chambered for 2 5/8" shells.  They all say ALL 12 gauge Model 97s where chambered for 2 3/4" shells.  16 gauge guns WERE chambered for 2 5/8" shells up until mid-1929.  I.e., up to serial numbers in the low 800,000s.  16 gauges were serial numbered along with the 12 gauges but only about 10% of Model 97 production was in 16 gauge.  After 1929 the 16 gauges are all chambered for 2 3/4"  The suggestion that old 2 3/4" chambers are shorter than "modern" 2 3/4" shells is BS.  Shotgun chambers are measured by the length of the FIRED shell.  2 3/4" is 2 3/4" regardless of the crimp used.  The forcing cones may be more abrupt in older guns compared to what is in vogue now.  But the chambers are still 2 3/4".

 

P.S.  Model 93s started with 2 5/8" chambers.  However the last ones produced just before introduction of the Model 97 were also chambered for 2 3/4" shells.

Edited October 13 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

["Big Boston"]

16 Gauge Winchester 1897 circa 1912.pdf

12 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

This comes up every so often.  I have lots of firearms reference books and NONE of them say that 12 gauge Model 97s were ever chambered for 2 5/8" shells.  They all say ALL 12 gauge Model 97s where chambered for 2 3/4" shells.  16 gauge guns WERE chambered for 2 5/8" shells up until mid-1929.  I.e., up to serial numbers in the low 800,000s.  16 gauges were serial numbered along with the 12 gauges but only about 10% of Model 97 production was in 16 gauge.  After 1929 the 16 gauges are all chambered for 2 3/4"  The suggestion that old 2 3/4" chambers are shorter than "modern" 2 3/4" shells is BS.  Shotgun chambers are measured by the length of the FIRED shell.  2 3/4" is 2 3/4" regardless of the crimp used.  The forcing cones may be more abrupt in older guns compared to what is in vogue now.  But the chambers are still 2 3/4".

 

P.S.  Model 93s started with 2 5/8" chambers.  However the last ones produced just before introduction of the Model 97 were also chambered for 2 3/4" shells.

 

"16 gauge guns WERE chambered for 2 5/8" shells up until mid-1929" I have a 16 ga from 1912 and it still has the shorter chamber. I wasn't able to find a date for conversion, 1929 sounds reasonable, thanks for that info. I've was lead to believe that 16 gauge used a 2 9/16 shotshell, I was able to buy a bandolier of these to try in my shotgun. My 16 is in good to very good condition, with a full choked 28" barrel. When I got it it had a chip broken out of the hammer and someone had installed the cap 180º out of phase. I shortened some hulls and reloaded for it, but lost interest. I do like the 16 as a gauge, and it would be perfect for CAS. 

 

 

16 Gauge Winchester 1897 circa 1912.pdf

 

According to a decent source; "The new 16 gauge with a 2 9/16” chamber was introduced in 1899, Take Down only."

 

Big Boston

[John Kloehr]

Got a chance to try the '97s today, a local (general gun) club shoot nearby, both guns run! I do have a favorite, the one with almost no bluing left on it.

 

I'm sure not going to beat any speed records, but I can once again participate. Excited!

 

Next up is to dig the small gun cart out of the garage, wipe it down, and start prepping for the local November shoot.

[John Kloehr]

On 10/7/2024 at 9:03 PM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

The video above is excellent, as he is a world class shooter.

Video's by Deuce are also 1st class and very informative.  Deuce is also a world class shooter and know his firearms as well

as anyone.

 

Video's by Widder also are good and fun to watch.  There are 3 'Dry Fire' practice videos that are helpful with the 97.

 

The 97 ain't exactly slow.   A good 97 shooter can basically make it sound like a SxS, even with a single loading technique.

And some 97 shooters can make a semi auto shooter feel ashamed.

 

The Oak Ridge Outlaws are having their monthly 'TUESDAY' match tomorrow on the action pistol range.

Shooting begins at 9:30.     I plan to be there.   Bring your guns and ammo and join in on the fun.

Usually, only about 12-15 of us show up for this TUESDAY match.   We shoot 5 stages and have a blast.

Come join us.   There's enough fun for everyone!

 

Personally, I like the LNLR ammo for the SG.

 

..........Widder

 

As expected, I could not make last month, or Tuesday this week (an appointment I could not move). I felt dissapointment. But tomorrow is on! Going to set two alarms to get me awake enough to make coffee and get moving! The drive is only an hour.

 

Your videos are incredible! As are the others. I'm going with left hand over the top tomorrow as it seems less error prone. And just simple with the other guns, need to focus on form before speed. A clean match with no bad guns is my goal.

 

Thank you for your encouragement! Looking forward to a hello if you are there too. I recall everyone else there is great too.

[Eyesa Horg]

Have fun

[John Kloehr]

12 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Have fun

Oh, I will. Mostly hope to retouch friendliness if not actual friendships. Most folks in this sport are much more likable than some of the others I shoot in.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

I'm going with left hand over the top tomorrow as it seems less error prone.

It's not.

 

Going over the top is only good if you're pulling 4.

 

Phantom

[Whitey James]

Picked up my 97 on Monday and shot the Oak Ridge WB match on Thursday. Have not tried any loading techniques yet since WB stokes the mag but I am going to practice with it and try it in a Cowboy match soon. 

[Cinch]

Avoid slugs in old shotguns. Modern slug guns are straight barrel tapers. Many 97 barrels are thinner on one side than the other. 
 

can lead to problems… 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

18 minutes ago, Cinch said:

Avoid slugs in old shotguns. Modern slug guns are straight barrel tapers. Many 97 barrels are thinner on one side than the other. 
 

can lead to problems… 

I don't believe that's true for Riot models...

 

Phantom

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Well,

I got to shoot on a Posse with John Kloehr today.

 

His functioning of his 97 was good.   His 'over the top' technique was good.   From what I could tell, the ONLY problem

was in the 97 not wanting to kick out empties with authority.   But he stuck with it and started getting it to function

better throughout the day.

 

Great weather and fun stages shooting with The Oak Ridge Outlaws.

 

..........Widder

 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Well,

I got to shoot on a Posse with John Kloehr today.

 

His functioning of his 97 was good.   His 'over the top' technique was good.   From what I could tell, the ONLY problem

was in the 97 not wanting to kick out empties with authority.   But he stuck with it and started getting it to function

better throughout the day.

 

Great weather and fun stages shooting with The Oak Ridge Outlaws.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Good for him for going out shooting...

 

New ejector spring...? Tighten the main spring so that one doesn't get wimpy/lazy working the action...??

 

😉

 

Phantom