1873 converted to 45Auto/ACP

[July Smith]

I see that 45colt 1873 rifles/carbines converted to shoot 45Auto is somewhat common in Wild Bunch.  How well do these conversions work and are they safe to use with standard FMJ factory loaded ammo?  Also how are these conversions typically achieved?  I assume the 45 Colt bolt face and lifter are replaced and the 45 Colt barrel is cut and set back to allow for a new 45 Auto chamber to be cut but just want to make sure I understand the process.    

[Griff]

To the best of my understanding, they are typically outfitted with a C45S carrier, modifying the extractor, and the bbl cut back at the breech end to allow headspacing on the case mouth.  I don't have one, I simply use the C45S cartridge which only requires the modified carrier.  With ammo meeting (exceeding) the 150 PF, case expansion is sufficient to reduce blowby to manageable levels.  Another common conversion is to a Marlin 1894 rifle... In its case the barrel is shortened at the breech, carrier modified to speed timing and the extractor extended to grip the 45ACP flush rim.  My Marlin is also only converted to shoot the C45S and only needed the carrier modified to increase timing. 

 

The modification of the extractor is the important step in either rifle to ensure reliable extraction of the fired case.  The first such conversion I read about was back in the 1980's in an issue of Guns & Ammo (IIRC), and that extractor modification was the portion of the conversion that troubled them, which is why I didn't bother.  The C45S case, being the same length as a 45ACP is easily loaded the same as an ACP round, and in any of my 45 Colt rifles makes PF, even with the longer jump to the rifling in the unmodified 45 Colt chamber.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Yep.  Your guys pretty much nailed it.  The adadptation to the 45 ACP case is a ROYAL PITA to do.  I completed a couple in my sordid past, prior to retirement.  I didn't want to do any more.  

 

I'll start at the back.  First the Breach Block Face (bolt) needs to be modified with a modified cartridge guide tab at the bottom.  The top of the Bolt has to be relived to allow the extractor to find and grip the ACP cartridge.  A C45S Carrier Block is required for the shorter case.  Barrel has to be pulled and the chamber cut away and a new 45 ACP chamber cut to head space on the case mouth and the cut barrel has to be correctly head spaced.  Then the Magazine tube has to be cut to match the new barrel length.  If one isn't happy with the change, going back the other way is just as expensive if not a bit more.

 

All this to allow some gas competitors to run "same same" cartridge.  Seems a huge amount of bother and expense for not much gain.  With revolvers, one can run a C45S carrier block, and C45S cases in both rifle and Revolver with the just the expense of a Carrier Block and that change can be reversed simply by changing out the carrier block.  To me, it was an awful lot of work for a "Why Bother" change.  Rifle won't run any faster than it does with C45S cases.  Why Bother.   

[Geronimo Jim SASS # 21775]

Cody Conager has done a bunch.  I have had mine for 3 years or so and it runs like a Rolex. 

Really nice to shoot the same ammo in both guns.

[Tully Mars]

A buddy has two from a well know gunsmith. Head space is incorrect on one, lower bolt tab broke on the other which makes me suspect the timing wasn't correct from the git go.

Lots of money for a gun that might be difficult to turn over with the current change in WB rules. Of course it can be used in Cowboy too.

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.  A rifle in 45ACP may be OK in Wild bunch, but according to page 39 in the CAS Shooters Handbook of legal main match rifle calibers the 45ACP is not listed.  Nor do I see any semi auto rimless calibers like 9mm, 40S&W, etc. listed.

Just my observation.  Don't want to get any new shooters in CAS in trouble. 

[Griff]

15 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.  A rifle in 45ACP may be OK in Wild bunch, but according to page 39 in the CAS Shooters Handbook of legal main match rifle calibers the 45ACP is not listed.  Nor do I see any semi auto rimless calibers like 9mm, 40S&W, etc. listed.

Just my observation.  Don't want to get any new shooters in CAS in trouble. 

Legal except in Classic Cowboy/Cowgirl, which requires a "rimmed cartridge of at least .40 caliber."  Or as the SHB states:

Quote

-  Revolver and Rifle Calibers: .40 caliber or larger, rimmed cartridges. Examples include, but are not limited to, .38-40, .44 Special, .44 Russian, .44 Mag.,      .44-40, .45 Schofield, .45 Colt, or .36 caliber or larger cap and ball.

 

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Sorry Griff, but I again just went through the whole current SASS Shooters Handbook and nowhere is the 45ACP listed as a main match CAS rifle caliber.

If you can point me to somewhere else in the Handbook to show it is I would appreciate it.

[Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407]

I would be worried about using any fmj without a flat point on the end as the tip of each round will be resting on the primer of the next round when loaded in the magazine tube.

 

Using a jhp or flat point would be best...

[Blackwater 53393]

I shot .45acp in my convertible Blackhawks on any number of occasions since 2003, until I traded them a couple of years ago! This includes many major matches over the years!

 

I can’t quote scripture and verse, but it’s, without question, a SASS legal round!!

[Tully Mars]

15 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Sorry Griff, but I again just went through the whole current SASS Shooters Handbook and nowhere is the 45ACP listed as a main match CAS rifle caliber.

If you can point me to somewhere else in the Handbook to show it is I would appreciate it.

 

Pretty certain this goes for rifles as well as pistols.

 

[Blackwater 53393]

Thanks TM!!

[Renegade Roper]

2 hours ago, Tully Mars said:

A buddy has two from a well know gunsmith. Head space is incorrect on one, lower bolt tab broke on the other which makes me suspect the timing wasn't correct from the git go.

Lots of money for a gun that might be difficult to turn over with the current change in WB rules. Of course it can be used in Cowboy too.

This!  I have one that we finally got to run right (and now with the rule changes it will probably become a safe queen).  It would cost way too much to convert it back to 45lc.  Wish I had just went with the 45 cowboy special carrier as those worked fine when we used to shoot 45's as our CAS guns and they are easy to convert back to 45lc.

Roper

[JJ “Reb” Wainwright 110206]

I have one of Cody’s conversions and it runs like a dream. The only thing I don’t like about it is reloading on the line.
 

If you’re an occasional goofball like me and Jack out a live round, when you go to load one on the line you have to make sure you push that short little fat round all the way in past the little “catch” in the carrier that properly spaces the 45acp. This means jamming your pinky up there to shove it home. Not the most graceful thing under pressure. Failing to do this risks locking that beast up tight as a vault. Don’t ask me how I know, I just know.  
 

Also, as @Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407 said, I wouldn’t recommend RN projectiles. I always shoot 200gr RNFP in mine. No issues, ever. 
 

JJ

[Widder, SASS #59054]

2 hours ago, Renegade Roper said:

This!  I have one that we finally got to run right (and now with the rule changes it will probably become a safe queen).  It would cost way too much to convert it back to 45lc.  Wish I had just went with the 45 cowboy special carrier as those worked fine when we used to shoot 45's as our CAS guns and they are easy to convert back to 45lc.

Roper

 

Hey Roper,

you should have got me to set you up a 'Widdermajik' a few years back before I retired.  It would have

served you nicely.

 

Check out the video below.

 

..........Widder

 

 

[Griff]

6 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Hey Roper,

you should have got me to set you up a 'Widdermajik' a few years back before I retired.  It would have

served you nicely.

 

Check out the video below.

 

..........Widder

 

 

It's definitely "Widdermajik" as I tried to do mine and could get it to cycle 45 Colts again.  

[Renegade Roper]

7 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Hey Roper,

you should have got me to set you up a 'Widdermajik' a few years back before I retired.  It would have

served you nicely.

 

Check out the video below.

 

..........Widder

 

 

That is friggin amazing!!!  Wish I had known!

[Renegade Roper]

9 hours ago, JJ “Reb” Wainwright 110206 said:

I have one of Cody’s conversions and it runs like a dream. The only thing I don’t like about it is reloading on the line.
 

If you’re an occasional goofball like me and Jack out a live round, when you go to load one on the line you have to make sure you push that short little fat round all the way in past the little “catch” in the carrier that properly spaces the 45acp. This means jamming your pinky up there to shove it home. Not the most graceful thing under pressure. Failing to do this risks locking that beast up tight as a vault. Don’t ask me how I know, I just know.  
 

Also, as @Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407 said, I wouldn’t recommend RN projectiles. I always shoot 200gr RNFP in mine. No issues, ever. 
 

JJ

When we shot cowboy specials I loved the reloads (as long as they were planned and not because I jacked one out, LOL).  Just plunk it on top, push it down, close the lever by sweeping it back (w/o putting your hand back in) and hit the trigger as it closes.  Very fast and consistent over the top since the round is so short.  Now for me with a regular 38 since it is a longer cartridge (we dont make shorter ones for reloads) I couldn't get the consistency to reload over the top so I reload thru the side.  I've timed myself doing both and for me it's definitely faster to go over the top but I am not consistent with it because you need to be much more precise (for the 38).  YMMV.

[July Smith]

Thank you all for the comments.  I think for now I'll take a hard pass on any lever guns chambered in 45Auto.

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Tully, please read approved SASS main match RIFLE calibers for CAS on page 39 of CAS Handbook.  You are quoting REVOLVER calibers.   

[KingSnake]

Revolver Calibers
- Must be centerfire cartridges of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber
or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber.
- Must be in a cartridge commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but
are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum,
.44-40, and .45 Colt. (Includes some semi-auto pistol cartridges, e.g. 9mm, 10mm,
and .45 ACP).

 

 

Rifle Calibers
- Must be centerfire of at least .32 caliber and not larger than .45 caliber.
- Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are
not limited to,

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Ok my friend, but please show me where 45ACP is "COMMONLY" found in "REVOLVERS", especially single action revolvers which is what we use in Cowboy Action Shooting.

[July Smith]

17 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Ok my friend, but please show me where 45ACP is "COMMONLY" found in "REVOLVERS", especially single action revolvers which is what we use in Cowboy Action Shooting.

This has been gone over many times.  The 45 caliber as in diameter (.451"-.454"ish) is commonly found.  Doesn't matter if it's 45Auto, CS, Schofield, Colt, Casull, et al. they are all 45 caliber.  The same is true for 9mm as the caliber/diameter is .355"-358"ish) which is a 38 caliber and is commonly found in revolvers.  Only the Classic Cowboy category has a specific requirement that the case be a rimmed cartridge.  

[Griff]

19 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Ok my friend, but please show me where 45ACP is "COMMONLY" found in "REVOLVERS", especially single action revolvers which is what we use in Cowboy Action Shooting.

As said many, many times, the 45 Auto is commonly found in Ruger Blackhawks, both alone and as a 2nd cylinder with the 45 Colt.  It has been ruled on very early on in the game.  Listing EVERY exception to the more common "cowboy" cartridges would simply be wasting space.  If it's listed under the Pistol section, it is also included as a rifle round... as main match rifles much be chambered in a pistol cartridge.

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Ok folks.  I now follow you on the rules.  If a CAS shooter wants to spend the money to convert a rifle to shoot 45ACP, or 9mm, or 40S&W, or 10mm, well it's their money, and as long as they are having fun good for them.