Competition compromises

[Mustang Gregg]

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think it would have been close to impossible for me not to either use that line again or use a different Seinfeld line. 

John Barleycorn, why would someone get pissed at the pretzel comment?

Well, heck, I think that's funny right there.  But an SOG penalty???

Sometimes, it doesn't take much to amuse us cowboy shooters. 

Mustang

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

13 minutes ago, Mustang Gregg said:

John Barleycorn, why would someone get pissed at the pretzel comment?

Well, heck, I think that's funny right there.  But an SOG penalty???

Sometimes, it doesn't take much to amuse us cowboy shooters. 

Mustang

She thought not saying the line gave an advantage because I didn’t have to recite a predetermined start line. 

[Griff]

Rant Mode On:  Throwing it around that not sayin' a line as written in the stage instructions is deserving of a penalty about as far from the "Cowboy Way" as one can get.  As a stage writer I would get pretty creative in providing a story line that progressed from one stage to the next, so the match as a whole had a theme to it.  My starting lines were reflective of that theme.  And my Mrs took that to a much higher level when she'd write the scenario (story) that went with my hand drawn illustrations of the stage.  But to tie any sort of penalty to a failure to recite a particular line is about as "authoritarian" as one can get.  One deserving of being the laughing stock of the whole community over being bent out of shape over such a contrivance.  I have my favorite starting line, and use it most of the time... in reality, because I don't pay as much attention to the written line as I might.  I'm still going over the shooting sequence, as that's where penalties can be earned if flubbed.  When you hear me say, "... hell no I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!"  You just got notice that you can start the silly timer when you're ready... I'll follow along shorty.  And if you think that's deserving of a SOG... fine, I'll post the protest fee.  And won't hesitate to explain why my hide will never again be seen at your laughable little match!

 

While our local matches tend to include a starting line, I've been to plenty of others where they don't... Even the one's that do, don't put much importance on what's said, just that the shooter has verbally acknowledged that they're ready to begin.  Which is the whole point of the line.  A SOG is for a willful omission of shooting instructions  for the stage in order to gain a competitive advantage.... i.e., disregarding the shooting sequence, firearm sequence or shooting positions in order to gain a advantage.  The operative phrase there is "gain a competitive advantage,." in case my repeating myself left you puzzled.  Whether one recites the line as written, ad libs a version of it, or something totally off the wall, in no shape or form constitutes a competitive advantage.  Physical activity associated with the progress of the stage, i.e. roping the steer, rolling the dice, etc... whether on or off the clock is also a 30 second penalty, but known as "Failure to Engage."  Rant Mode Off.

 

Edited August 22 by Griff

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Jeez Griff - That looked like a Creeker rant.

Nice to see I aint the only one that can still get impassioned for our little game.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

6 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

...

  But there is another side to start lines.  They were included in our game/sport for a reason.  The SHB calls out "... refusal to say a line..."  as an explicit example of a SOG violation.  

...

 

No, it does NOT.

 

You seem to be confusing the "Spirit of the Game" philosophy with a SOG violation...which is explicitly defined as a SHOOTING infraction related to stage instructions (e.g. committing additional procedurals after receiving the first one on a stage in an attempt to make up the time...knowing only one "P" may be assessed per stage) and failure to meet ammunition MinVel/PF standards.

 

The SHB examples defining a "SPIRIT OF THE GAME" infraction are:

 

FAILURE TO ENGAGE/SPIRIT OF THE GAME 

 A Failure to Engage or a Spirit of the Game infraction carries a 30 second penalty. The accumulation of two Failure to Engage/Spirit of the Game penalties in the same match results in a Match Disqualification Penalty. 

- Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage (Spirit of the Game). 

- Shooting ammunition that does not meet the power factor or minimum velocity. The penalty is applied for each stage a competitor is checked and their ammunition is found to not meet the power factor or minimum velocity (Spirit of the Game).

SHB p.23

 

If the average velocity of the four rounds meets or exceeds the calculated power factor of 60 AND the minimum velocity of 400 fps, the loads will be considered legal. If the loads do not meet the 60 power factor OR the minimum velocity of 400 fps, the competitor will be assessed a 30 second Spirit of the Game (SOG) penalty for the last stage completed. Any subsequent stages completed with the illegal ammunition will result in the SOG penalty being assessed for those stages. Two SOG penalties will result in a Match DQ.

SHB p.25

 

None of which mention "saying the starting line".

[Dusty Devil Dale]

41 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

No, it does NOT.

 

You seem to be confusing the "Spirit of the Game" philosophy with a SOG violation...which is explicitly defined as a SHOOTING infraction related to stage instructions (e.g. committing additional procedurals after receiving the first one on a stage in an attempt to make up the time...knowing only one "P" may be assessed per stage) and failure to meet ammunition MinVel/PF standards.

 

The SHB examples defining a "SPIRIT OF THE GAME" infraction are:

 

FAILURE TO ENGAGE/SPIRIT OF THE GAME 

 A Failure to Engage or a Spirit of the Game infraction carries a 30 second penalty. The accumulation of two Failure to Engage/Spirit of the Game penalties in the same match results in a Match Disqualification Penalty. 

- Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage (Spirit of the Game). 

- Shooting ammunition that does not meet the power factor or minimum velocity. The penalty is applied for each stage a competitor is checked and their ammunition is found to not meet the power factor or minimum velocity (Spirit of the Game).

SHB p.23

 

If the average velocity of the four rounds meets or exceeds the calculated power factor of 60 AND the minimum velocity of 400 fps, the loads will be considered legal. If the loads do not meet the 60 power factor OR the minimum velocity of 400 fps, the competitor will be assessed a 30 second Spirit of the Game (SOG) penalty for the last stage completed. Any subsequent stages completed with the illegal ammunition will result in the SOG penalty being assessed for those stages. Two SOG penalties will result in a Match DQ.

SHB p.25

 

None of which mention "saying the starting line".

Thank you for clarifying.  I was in fact mixing the two sections in memory.   Are you in agreement that the start lines are non-shooting  "stage instructions" or required "non-shooting procedures"? 

 

SHB p11:  Failure to Engage
A “failure to engage” penalty occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage and is not assessed simply because a competitor “makes a mistake.” A “failure to engage” applies only to non-shooting situations such as refusing to rope a steer, throw a stick of dynamite, or otherwise make an attempt to complete any other non-shooting procedure written within the stage instructions. In such case, a 30-second “failure to engage” penalty is assessed in addition to any penalties for misses, procedurals, or minor safety infractions.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

7 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Thank you for clarifying.  I was in fact mixing the two sections in memory.   Are you in agreement that the start lines are non-shooting  "stage instructions" or required "non-shooting procedures"? 

 

SHB p11:  Failure to Engage
A “failure to engage” penalty occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage and is not assessed simply because a competitor “makes a mistake.” A “failure to engage” applies only to non-shooting situations such as refusing to rope a steer, throw a stick of dynamite, or otherwise make an attempt to complete any other non-shooting procedure written within the stage instructions. In such case, a 30-second “failure to engage” penalty is assessed in addition to any penalties for misses, procedurals, or minor safety infractions.

 

NO...they are simply verbal indications to let the TO know that "shooter is ready".
As noted in some earlier posts, some shooters use a "signature" start line (e.g. "Who owns this ...?")

 

Most clubs/matches actually post them at the starting location(s) on each stage so there is no "memory contest" to distract the shooter from concentrating on the engagement sequence(s).
Even then, there is NO PENALTY for ad libbing the line.

"Failure to engage" violations refer to physical "tasks" written into the stage instructions (as noted in the examples cited in the definition).

[Dusty Devil Dale]

5 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Dale is saying that not saying the line is contrary to SOG by attempting a competitive advantage.

 

BUT I don't believe the definition of SOG supports his argument. 

SOG applies to actions AFTER the beep - that might be taken to mimimize the effect of an error (i.e. dumping rounds after earning a P).

 

The only other thing that could be (wrongly) applied is Failure To Engage.

I.e refusing to perform a non shooting activity on the clock.

But again; this is a penalty that only applies AFTER the beep.

 

As far as I can recall - other than safety/ loading/ unloading related and interpersonal conflicts - there are no penalties for anything outside the time beep to beep.

 

IF the timer is following procedure - regardless of the shooter signifying ready by saying,

"It's a hell of a thing killing a man - taking away everything he has or will ever have".

or

"Shooter ready"

or

"Yabba dabba doo"

 

The timer "should" follow that by

"Shooters ready - Standby"...

BEEP.

 

There is no time or focus advantage to any of the above.

No advantage - no penalty.

There are penalties assessed for various rule violations occurring before the beep, for example(s):

 

1) moving from the loading table to the staging location with a closed long gun with a chambered round.  

 

2) Dropping a gun off the loading table.

 

3) Leaving the loading area with loaded pistols before being called to the stage. 

 

4) Dry firing at the loading table.

 

5) Sweeping a loading table officer or other person with an empty or loaded firearm.

 

You are correct that these are safety related, but they nevertheless are penalties incurred before the beep.   But the Failure to Engage section makes no mention of when infractions occur with respect to the beep.  When a shooter is on the stage or firing line, as defined,  I would assume that  all rules and conventions apply.  

 

And I guess we'll just have to agree to  disagree on whether or not there is competitive advantage afforded by skipping a part of the stage instruction.  My experience has been that those who commonly skip over the start lines argue there is no advantage.  Those who follow the stage instructions believe skipping the start lines is taking unfair advantage.

We re unlikely to settle it here.  The fact that folks so very strongly resist being required to say the lines suggests they do see an advantage of some kind.  

 

For my part,  I will continue requiring shooters to comply with the stage instructions, including making a reasonable effort to say a line at least similar or equivalent to the start lines in the instruction.  But with that said, I often write stages requiring very simple one or two word starting lines.   Lots of people adlib the lines and have fun doing it.  That isn't what I was referring to in my original statement.  Somebody invented creative starting lines for some reason.  It appears those reasons are lost now on many here.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22 by Dusty Devil Dale

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

5 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

...

As far as I can recall - other than safety/ loading/ unloading related and interpersonal conflicts - there are no penalties for anything outside the time beep to beep.

...

 

@Dusty Devil Dale...did you miss that line in the post from Creeker that you quoted?

[Dusty Devil Dale]

26 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

@Dusty Devil Dale...did you miss that line in the post from Creeker that you quoted?

No, in fact I agreed with him.  

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

11 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

No, in fact I agreed with him.  

 

Please note the time stamps.

I posted that question while you were (apparenly) editing your initial reply.

 

50 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

And I guess we'll just have to agree to  disagree on whether or not there is competitive advantage afforded by skipping a part of the stage instruction.  My experience has been that those who commonly skip over the start lines argue there is no advantage.  Those who follow the stage instructions believe skipping the start lines is taking unfair advantage.

We re unlikely to settle it here.  The fact that folks so very strongly resist being required to say the lines suggests they do see an advantage of some kind.  

IMO...That's an unfounded assumption

 

For my part,  I will continue requiring shooters to comply with the stage instructions, including making a reasonable effort to say a line at least similar or equivalent to the start lines in the instruction. 

And if they don't??

 

But with that said, I often write stages requiring very simple one or two word starting lines.   Lots of people adlib the lines and have fun doing it.  That isn't what I was referring to in my original statement.  Somebody invented creative starting lines for some reason.  It appears those reasons are lost now on many here.  
Start lines have been generally used to "set the tone" of a themed stage/match.
As I wrote earlier, posting the start line on a prop pretty much negates any perceived advantage to using a different verbal cue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

0

[Major Crimes]

Whatever you guys are paying PWB........ Double it ( I know double nothing is .....)

[Captain Bill Burt]

3 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

There are penalties assessed for various rule violations occurring before the beep, for example(s):

 

1) moving from the loading table to the staging location with a closed long gun with a chambered round.  

 

2) Dropping a gun off the loading table.

 

3) Leaving the loading area with loaded pistols before being called to the stage. 

 

4) Dry firing at the loading table.

 

5) Sweeping a loading table officer or other person with an empty or loaded firearm.

 

You are correct that these are safety related, but they nevertheless are penalties incurred before the beep.   But the Failure to Engage section makes no mention of when infractions occur with respect to the beep.  When a shooter is on the stage or firing line, as defined,  I would assume that  all rules and conventions apply.  

 

And I guess we'll just have to agree to  disagree on whether or not there is competitive advantage afforded by skipping a part of the stage instruction.  My experience has been that those who commonly skip over the start lines argue there is no advantage.  Those who follow the stage instructions believe skipping the start lines is taking unfair advantage.

We re unlikely to settle it here.  The fact that folks so very strongly resist being required to say the lines suggests they do see an advantage of some kind.  

 

For my part,  I will continue requiring shooters to comply with the stage instructions, including making a reasonable effort to say a line at least similar or equivalent to the start lines in the instruction.  But with that said, I often write stages requiring very simple one or two word starting lines.   Lots of people adlib the lines and have fun doing it.  That isn't what I was referring to in my original statement.  Somebody invented creative starting lines for some reason.  It appears those reasons are lost now on many here.  

 

 

 

 

 

I’m curious, what happens when a shooter says ‘I’m ready’?

 

Are you going to assess a penalty? Refuse to start them? Give them a standby and then the beep?

[Captain Bill Burt]

Triple D we’ve crossed words in the past, and although we often disagree, I tend to respect where you’re coming from.

 

Having said that, if someone comes on the wire and unequivocally states that they’re going to interfere with shooters starting a stage, despite having been told by PWB that their interpretation of the rules is incorrect, that person should not be allowed to run a timer, ever.

[Cottonmouth Mark]

Interesting discussion. 

I'm fairly new to SASS (under 5 years), and I have found the TOs at the 3 clubs I have shot with to be tolerant.

 

I'm dyslexic. Remembering the stage order is enough for me. I try to use the stage line, but sometimes I have no clue, so I just come up with something else. Like "heres to more money downrange". If its a stage where I am not comfortable in remembering the order and how I want to approach it, I am certain I have said "shooter ready" (previous IPSC background). 

 

I believe the interaction you have with all at the match (not just your posse) displays your intentions regarding SOG. I am not certain ones intentions regarding the SOG should be base on 1 phrase only.

 

Cottonmouth Mark

[Shooting Bull]

7 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

For my part,  I will continue requiring shooters to comply with the stage instructions, including making a reasonable effort to say a line at least similar or equivalent to the start lines in the instruction. 

 

 

Just to be sure I am 100% clear on what you're saying.  PaleWolf Brunelle, a member of the rules committee, has stated unequivocally that not saying the printed line is not a penalty.  But despite that, you're going to take it upon yourself to enforce a rule that doesn't exist? Am I reading that correctly?  

[McCandless]

Yep, I've run into this kind of mindset before.   My unofficial SASS alias is "Duc".   I often quack the starting line with a duck call.   (I quack myself up!)  Before I get to obscure the targets with a cloud of smoke.

I ran into one T.O. at a State Match that wasn't going to allow that.  (The quacking, not the smoke).  Oh well, whatever.   But, he was overruled by one of the Wild Bunch who was shooting with us.

 

I certainly don't see where the competitive advantage comes in.  I've yet to find it.

[Yul Lose]

DDD, let’s never posse together, I guarantee you won’t like some of the stuff that I come up with. Even at matches with no lines I like to come up with a line.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

FINAL COMMENTS:

 

“Is the Shooter Ready” query OR “Shooter Ready” Depending on the established cadence and the initiation of the stage by the shooter, both of these commands are used in varying situations. This should be said just before the “Standby” command. Most of the time, a nod from the shooter indicates ready- when a starting line to indicate ready doesn’t exist (and sometimes even if it does).

RO1 p.22 - Common Verbal Range Commands

 

6. Upon the ready indication by the Shooter, the TO says: “Shooter ready……Standby……..beep”

RO1 p.25 - Timer Operator – Running the Firing Line

 

(Note that neither section mentions any option for the Timer Operator to delay and distract the shooter by demanding a "word for word" recitation of any "starting line".)