7.62x38mmR and Nagant 1895 Revolver

[anon42103]

A friend has been encouraging me to get into SASS events with him.  To my surprise, I found out I can legally use my 1895 Nagant Revolvers.  Both are already SA.  But I have always used them to target and plinking.  Do I stand a chance with my pair?  Also, I have the conversion cylinders to convert them both to 32 ACP, but I do have a well stocked supply of 7.62x38MMR of the PPU 98 grain.  Which would be better for SASS events? Thoughts and help for a beginner?

[Doc Fill 'Em 67797]

Howdy! You probably would not see anyone else using Nagants, that’s for sure. I have heard of them being used, so it’s been done. Once you get started you will probably get other guns, it always happens. I started with some guns I already had and slowly upgraded. Use them and have fun! Good luck!

[One Gun Jimmy]

Aren't these the guns that move the cylinder to seal for suppressed fire?

 

Really cool guns, they are 7 shot DA guns tho correct? I seen you say they are already SA....didn't know they were made that way.

 

Anyway, ammo choice is un important because:

You will have a different caliber for rifle with either choice

The targets are close enough that ballistics are un important in pistols.

Both calibers can be hard to find but I assume you reload so who cares.

 

As far as having a chance, you will have an equal chance to have as much fun as the rest of us....They also will probably start many conversations for you which is a big part of this sport.

 

I don't know how they will hold up to the beating of CAS, weird long firing pin for example if I'm thinking if the right gun.

 

But I say, by all means, bring those wierd things out and get shooting, if they need to be replaced you can do it whenever funds allow but they may work great, no idea. 

 

Welcome to the addiction that is CAS.

 

[DeaconKC]

The Nagants are tough as nails, they should hold up fine. Congrats, best of luck and have fun!

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy Anon,

 

Just a reminder: lead bullets only. 

 

Rev. Chase

[Three Foot Johnson]

4 hours ago, anon42103 said:

A friend has been encouraging me to get into SASS events with him.  To my surprise, I found out I can legally use my 1895 Nagant Revolvers.  Both are already SA.  But I have always used them to target and plinking.  Do I stand a chance with my pair?

Stand a chance of what? Winning a state, national, or world championship? NO. Stand a chance of not finishing last? Sure, but somebody's got to be last. *raises hand*

I seem to remember reading the SA and DA Nagants used the exact same frame and parts, just that the DA had an extra part installed to allow it to function double action, which could be removed in about 30 seconds.

 

Also, I have the conversion cylinders to convert them both to 32 ACP, but I do have a well stocked supply of 7.62x38MMR of the PPU 98 grain.

I could be misremembering this, but I seem to recall the .32 acp cartridge was specifically disallowed... Anybody?  

I had a Nagant several years ago, and used .32-20 cases.

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

OTHER APPROVED FIREARMS

The following additional firearms have been approved for use:

...

- Original or replica Nagant Single Action Revolver

SHB p.39

 

Converting a DA Nagant (as mentioned ^^above^^) makes it LEGAL for main match use.

 

Re: .32 ACP

Quote

Revolver Calibers 

...

 - Must be in a cartridge commonly available in revolvers.

SHB p.37

[Goody, SASS #26190]

All of the 7.62x38mmr PPU 98gr that I see listed shows to be a jacketed bullet. In that case, no, the ammo would not be legal. We shoot lead only.

[DeaconKC]

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L since the .32ACP is a semi-rimmed cartridge, many folks do shoot it in .32 S&W chambered revolvers. Could a request be made to allow this?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

7 minutes ago, DeaconKC said:

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L since the .32ACP is a semi-rimmed cartridge, many folks do shoot it in .32 S&W chambered revolvers. Could a request be made to allow this?

 

The requirement that revolver ammunition be "...in a cartridge commonly available in revolvers." allows .45ACP, 9mm, and other cartridges used in semi-auto pistols to be used due to the availability of historical precedent as well as the many "convertible" revolvers produced.

 

Do those .32ACP rounds (loaded with lead bullets, of course) being used in .32 S&W revolvers meet the SASS power factor or BP smoke requirements for main match use?

Or are they relegated to "pocket pistol" use?

[Sedalia Dave]

The 32 ACP ( AKA 7.65×17mmSR Browning or 7.65 mm Browning Short. ) was introduced in 1899.

 

It was developed by J.M. Browning for the FN 1900 pistol. It was and instant hit and several other firearms were soon chambered for it. 

[Three Foot Johnson]

That's right, I remember this conversation in the past now. Subjectively, the .32 acp would be a legal cartridge, due to the definition of "commonly available" in the Glossary of Terms in the Shooters Manual.

 

Commonly available – obtainable by anyone given ordinary circumstances with ordinary means. 

 

The term, "commonly available" is used only 4 times in the manual; once referring to adjustable revolver sights, twice referring to "commonly available" cartridges, and once in the Glossary of Terms defining the term "commonly available".

 

A standard weight 70 grain .32 acp bullet would have to be at about 860 fps to meet power factor. A standard 92 grainer would have to be at about 655 fps. It would never make the smoke standard for black powder categories though.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

How many REVOLVERS were/are actually chambered in .32ACP?

(not just those chambered for another .32 cartridge that might allow firing that cartridge)

 

"...in a cartridge commonly available in revolvers."

 

LINK to opinion article

 

 

[Three Foot Johnson]

How many REVOLVERS were/are actually chambered in C45S? 

(not just those chambered for another .45 cartridge that might allow firing that cartridge)

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

The Nagant is a strange pistol that is fun to shoot.  It is remarkably comfortable to hold and operate.  I have shot a couple of matches with mine over the years, and I did not "suffer" for doing so.   Granted, I am not a top tier shooter, but I had fun.

 

The single action operation is remarkable easy, and the trigger is actually not all that bad in this mode.  It's not great, but it's not disgusting.

 

As far as ammo goes, there is a very easy solution.  Lee makes dies that allow you to reform .32-20 brass to be used in the Nagants.  Load them with .313" wadcutters, and you are good to go.  The brass so made is shorter than original Nagant brass, so it won't make the "gas seal," but since we are not using a silencer, who cares?

I have a pair of the things, and long before I got my second pistol, I got one of the .32 ACP conversion cylinders.   I never got a second one.  I could never get it to work properly.   Then when I learned of the ability to use the .32-20 brass in the original cylinders, I never looked back.

I may not use them very often, but I am glad I have them, and enjoy shooting them when I do.   In fact, I think that this year, I will use them at at least 1 match.  Probably pair them with a 66 Winchester, as that's possibly what they would have been used with by the Russians back in the day.

Good luck!

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

5 hours ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

How many REVOLVERS were/are actually chambered in C45S? 

(not just those chambered for another .45 cartridge that might allow firing that cartridge)

 

It is my understanding that the C45S was developed to chamber in .45 Colt & Schofield revolvers.

Not the same thing as shooting .32ACP in a revolver chambered specifically for rimmed .32 revolver cartridges (even though the ACP round has a "rim")

(did you read the linked article regarding possible issues?) 

 

 

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

3 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

As far as ammo goes, there is a very easy solution.  Lee makes dies that allow you to reform .32-20 brass to be used in the Nagants.  Load them with .313" wadcutters,

be sure the bullets are proud of the case mouth

 

SHB, 2023

. . . 
REVOLVER AND RIFLE AMMUNITION
- May not be jacketed, semi-jacketed, hollow point, plated, or gas checked. It must be all lead. Moly-Disulfide, polymer coated bullets, or equivalents are acceptable.
- Must be of “single projectile” design. “Multiple projectile” bullets are illegal.
- Ammunition with bullets recessed below the case mouth is not allowed.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

On 5/9/2023 at 7:01 PM, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

Ammunition with bullets recessed below the case mouth is not allowed.

 

Several years ago, I asked about this.   I asked how the Nagant could be legal. but it's standard ammo not be.   PaleWolf responded that since the gun was legal, its ammo was as well, an exception to the above rule.

In any case, the wadcutters I use in the .32-20 brass do ever so slightly stick out of the top of the brass.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

A nice pair of Nagants.

 

[Three Foot Johnson]

One would have to assume, then, that the .32 acp is unequivocally legal in the Nagant convertible cylinder, but no one knows for sure about, say, in a .32 Single Six, why anyone would ever want to do that. I'm pretty sure I shot a few rounds through my .32's a few years back and they worked fine, but I've got about 300 pieces of brass in the tumbler, and a couple hundred Lee #TL314-90-SWC sized to .313", so I'll try it again in the next day or two. Freebore can't be any bigger problem than .38 short Colt in a .357 chamber, .44 Russian in a .44 magnum chamber, or C45S in a .45 Colt chamber.

[Sedalia Dave]

Found this interesting article.

 

Can You Fire .32 ACP in a Revolver?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Found this interesting article.

 

Can You Fire .32 ACP in a Revolver?

 

That's the same article to which I posted a LINK earlier. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Shall I bring up .38-44 and the S&W New Model 3?  

[Idaho Gunslinger]

Just to help this stay on topic. @anon42103 if those are the guns you have then bring them. Most any Match Director will be happy to have you show up to shoot a monthly match even if you aren't completely legal. Some of the cowboys may even be happy to let you try out their guns. 

 

At a state or higher match it will be a different story though. 

[Red Hooker]

On 5/8/2023 at 9:26 PM, One Gun Jimmy said:

Aren't these the guns that move the cylinder to seal for suppressed fire?

 

Really cool guns, they are 7 shot DA guns tho correct? I seen you say they are already SA....didn't know they were made that way.

 

Sliding cylinder was to reduce gas loss for increased velocity- which amounted to, what, 10 FPS?  for all that mechanical monkey-motion.

[One Gun Jimmy]

10 hours ago, Red Hooker said:

Sliding cylinder was to reduce gas loss for increased velocity- which amounted to, what, 10 FPS?  for all that mechanical monkey-motion.

I thought I read it was to prevent gas/noise for suppressed fire...maybe I'm incorrect.

 

100% not worth it for velocity.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Nagants in use.  I can't call the way I shot action. 

 

 

 

 

[Red Hooker]

On 5/12/2023 at 11:43 PM, One Gun Jimmy said:

I thought I read it was to prevent gas/noise for suppressed fire...maybe I'm incorrect.

 

100% not worth it for velocity.

It DID make it suitable for silencers, and they were so used by various "special operators" - Cheka (All-Russian Extraordinary Commission), NKVD (People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs) and KGB ( Committee for State Security), also some VC home conversions, but that wasn't the original reason for the design.

[Burt Blade, #25657]

If one makes different brass out of a parent case, what does that do to compliance? I know folks who cut and ream .45 Colt to make a small-rim Schofield, or "special".

 

I also know folks desperate for brass who ran .32ACP through their .32S&W dies. They also cut down "long" to make "short". The ACP wasn't quite right length, but loaded and chambered properly after resizing. Loads were sass-legal by data.

[Three Foot Johnson]

2 minutes ago, Burt Blade, #25657 said:

If one makes different brass out of a parent case, what does that do to compliance? 

With the current shortage of .44-40, I know a couple folks who are using .44 mag cases, and it seems to work. One is reaming the necks and one isn't - he says they're not binding when chambering, so no need for it. I've seen similar brass on Gunbroker lately - .44-40's made from neck reamed .44 magnum cases.

 

As a follow up, I shot a match this Saturday with .32 acp's in my Ruger Single Sixes - I don't know why you'd ever need to, but it worked fine. I've never been a speed demon, but still finished 6th out of 20. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

2 hours ago, Burt Blade, #25657 said:

If one makes different brass out of a parent case, what does that do to compliance?

 

A few years ago, as I was loading up .44 Special, I was 5 or 6 rounds short of filling up the last box.  So, I trimmed some Magnums to Special length.  Those few are still mixed in my Special ammo to this day.

 

Heck, I know of people who use .357 Maximum cases to make .38-44 brass to use in the S&W NM3's   Not sure why they go to the trouble since you can run .38 S&W in 'em.  

I don't think it's something worth wondering about.

[anon42103]

Thanks for all the information and help.  The Nagants will be my beginner revolvers till I become more adept.  My plan after I get more experience under my belt and money in my pocket, is to move to a set of Colt 1851 Navy in 38 special with octagonal barrels.  I can look down those octagonal barrels and aim so naturally.  Problem is so many modern reproductions for cartridges have the larger grip like the 1860 Colt Army and my hands and fingers have never liked that larger grip of the 1860 army but the slightly smaller grip of the Colt Navy.  Just so I can be on the look out on gunbroker and gun shows, any recommendations of manufacturer?

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

"Lee makes dies that allow you to reform .32-20 brass to be used in the Nagants.  Load them with .313" wadcutters, and you are good to go."

 

And this is why guys like me who shoot 32 WCF in CAS can't find any brass. What's interesting is that there are articles out there on how to make 32-20 brass out of Nagant brass, and there is Nagant brass out there for sale. Why not just trim the Nagant brass back, rework the primer pocket, and reload it like the converted 32-20 brass?

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

2 hours ago, High Spade Mikey Wilson said:

"Lee makes dies that allow you to reform .32-20 brass to be used in the Nagants.  Load them with .313" wadcutters, and you are good to go."

 

And this is why guys like me who shoot 32 WCF in CAS can't find any brass. What's interesting is that there are articles out there on how to make 32-20 brass out of Nagant brass, and there is Nagant brass out there for sale. Why not just trim the Nagant brass back, rework the primer pocket, and reload it like the converted 32-20 brass?

 

I also shoot .32-20.  I really like the cartridge, and I love the guns I have chambered for it.  The Nagant is so much of a niche gun, I doubt that people using .32-20 brass for it are making a dent in the supply.

As far as reworking Nagant brass as you have suggested goes, well, that sounds like a lot more trouble than it's worth. 

 

 

 

 

[Three Foot Johnson]

4 hours ago, High Spade Mikey Wilson said:

"Lee makes dies that allow you to reform .32-20 brass to be used in the Nagants.  Load them with .313" wadcutters, and you are good to go."

 

And this is why guys like me who shoot 32 WCF in CAS can't find any brass. What's interesting is that there are articles out there on how to make 32-20 brass out of Nagant brass, and there is Nagant brass out there for sale. Why not just trim the Nagant brass back, rework the primer pocket, and reload it like the converted 32-20 brass?

Plenty of brass available, but at $1.00 to $2.00 ea plus shipping, I expect it's a price point you're looking for, not availability.