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Have the Rules Changed?


Waco Jim
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Regarding the rules for re-shoots.  In my RO1 & II classes, I was taught that proper coaching or no coaching at all is not considered RO interference and would never be grounds for a re-shoot.  The Shooters Handbook at that time (2011) states that very clearly.  The current Shooters Handbook is not clear on what is or is not RO interference.  Have the rules changed?

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Proper coaching or no coaching at all is NOT considered RO interference and will never be grounds for a reshoot.

SHB p.18

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Reshoots are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, timer failure/unrecorded time, or Range Officer interference) beyond the competitor’s control, a reshoot may be granted.

SHB p.20

 

??

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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Proper Coaching vs. Improper Coaching

- Proper coaching is not considered RO Interference and will never be grounds for a reshoot.

- Improper coaching that either impedes the shooters progress or results in a procedural penalty may be grounds for a reshoot.

- Any Procedural penalties are the responsibility of the shooter; an RO/TO who does NOT provide coaching, is not responsible for a shooter’s procedural penalties. NOT coaching does not waive any procedural penalties.

RO1 p.9

 

Any input by the "peanut gallery" is NOT covered under the "Coaching" rules.

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All peanut gallery jokes aside, please discourage those comments. A procedural is less punishing than a SDQ or worse come from peanut gallery coaching. Let the TO assist the shooter.   I know everyone wants the best for the shooter, but more than one person giving instructions to someone on the clock may cause a safety error.

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44 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Why were you looking at @Krazy Kajunwhen you said that?

@Captain Bill Burtnow here ya go, speaking of comments from the peanut gallery...I see you sitting in the stands. :D

 

@Badlands Bob #61228 I guess all that "encouragement" you gave me whilst I was shooting and you weren't the TO or a spotter was well intentioned peanut gallery advice! B)

 

I agree, peanut gallery advice is worth what you paid for it....nothing.  If you ain't holding the timer or a spotting stick just sit back and watch the action....unless there is a genuinely dangerous safety situation unfolding.

 

Kajun

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1 hour ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

However, REALLY BAD coaching may be grounds for a reshoot, as far as I'm concerned.  The Peanut Gallery has been known to cause problems.

The rule is specific to "proper coaching or no coaching at all" for good reason.  Improper coaching or direction, for example, a T.O. mistakenly telling a shooter to cease fire certainly is grounds for a reshoot (and an apology).

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2 hours ago, Krazy Kajun said:

If you ain't holding the timer or a spotting stick just sit back and watch the action

Okay...now I'm going to have to go back and look at the rules...ugh...

 

Originally it was grounds for a reshoot if any Stage Official gave incorrect instructions. That included Counters and even the score keeper if I recall. Then they were going to/supposed to...change that to only the TO can give incorrect instructions that warrant a reshoot.

 

Aaaaaaand away I go to the rules...deep dive time!!!

 

Phantom

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UNIT 8: Match Positions & Roles

All match positions covered in this lesson are considered Range Officers. Each position serves a critical function to the fair, efficient, and SAFE execution of a match.

Match Director

Range Master 

Match RO

Posse Marshal

Deputy Posse Marshal 

Timer Operator (TO)

Expeditor (XP) Officer

Spotters

Score Keeper

Loading Table Officer 

Unloading Table Officer

Berm Marshal 

 

All these are considered "Range Officers".

 

The Shooter's Handbook says:
Reshoots are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, timer failure/unrecorded time, or Range Officer interference) beyond the competitor’s control, a reshoot may be granted.

 

So...I'm confuzaled...

 

Phantom

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26 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

UNIT 8: Match Positions & Roles

All match positions covered in this lesson are considered Range Officers. Each position serves a critical function to the fair, efficient, and SAFE execution of a match.

Match Director

Range Master 

Match RO

Posse Marshal

Deputy Posse Marshal 

Timer Operator (TO)

Expeditor (XP) Officer

Spotters

Score Keeper

Loading Table Officer 

Unloading Table Officer

Berm Marshal 

 

All these are considered "Range Officers".

 

The Shooter's Handbook says:
Reshoots are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, timer failure/unrecorded time, or Range Officer interference) beyond the competitor’s control, a reshoot may be granted.

 

So...I'm confuzaled...

 

Phantom

Oy

 

Kajun

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8 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I forget exactly what the conversation was a few months ago, but EVERYBODY is considered a safety officer...

Yes...but these are specifically called out as Range Officers.

 

Now yes, it does say: "...match positions covered in this lesson...". But I've looked to find where there is a specific definition of Range Officer and can't seem to find it (doesn't mean it's not there...I just didn't see it). I did see where in the Handbook Match RO was defined...but not simply Range Officer.

 

I'm sure someone schmart will help me out.

 

Phantom

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8 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yes...but these are specifically called out as Range Officers.

 

Now yes, it does say: "...match positions covered in this lesson...". But I've looked to find where there is a specific definition of Range Officer and can't seem to find it (doesn't mean it's not there...I just didn't see it). I did see where in the Handbook Match RO was defined...but not simply Range Officer.

 

I'm sure someone schmart will help me out.

 

Phantom

Seems like TO/CRO(chief range officer) is used synonymous somewhere. Without me getting my book out. 

Seems like the conversation a few months ago was about someone yelling stop or something like that. 

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Just now, Tennessee williams said:

Seems like TO/CRO(chief range officer) is used synonymous somewhere. Without me getting my book out. 

Seems like the conversation a few months ago was about someone yelling stop or something like that. 

Back in...2020...ish, the handbook defined stage officers as including Spotters and Score Keeper. Some of my terminology might be off. But at any rate, if any of these Stage Officers give a bad instruction (such as which target to engage when a shooter is "lost"), that was grounds for a reshoot. I think that was supposed to have been changed because the intent of the rule makers was that only the Timer Operator can give incorrect instructions that can lead to a reshoot.

 

Phantom

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Back in...2020...ish, the handbook defined stage officers as including Spotters and Score Keeper. Some of my terminology might be off. But at any rate, if any of these Stage Officers give a bad instruction (such as which target to engage when a shooter is "lost"), that was grounds for a reshoot. I think that was supposed to have been changed because the intent of the rule makers was that only the Timer Operator can give incorrect instructions that can lead to a reshoot.

 

Phantom

 

Currently, the only specific references to "COACHING" are listed in the Timer Operator duties.

I've suggested adding the term "Line RO's" (TO & Spotters) as those Range Officers are immediately involved with the shooter during stage engagement.

 

REF: SHB p.18

REF: RO1 pp.7-10

REF: RO2 p.7

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I’d think as this rule refers to “a range officer” impedes shooter would mean TO, counters, scorekeeper. If one of them gave improper coaching then reshoot would be in order(but not if safety rules was broken, like MOVE after pistol cocked and shooter moved yo another location with cocked gun) 

 

No reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes downrange as determined by the TO and Match Director – EXCEPT for:
- Prop or match equipment failure
- A Range Officer impeded the progress of the shooter (RO Interference)
- Timer failure or unrecorded time

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I agree with TO and Spotters (whose duties include watching for proper stage/target engagement, as well as counting shots fired)

The scorekeeper is NOT included in what I would call "Line ROs" unless also acting as a Spotter. 

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1 minute ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

I agree with TO and Spotters (whose duties include watching for proper stage/target engagement, as well as counting shots fired)

The scorekeeper is NOT included in what I would call "Line ROs" unless also acting as a Spotter. 

And I agree with you ;)

 

But I think the rule wording needs some refinement.

 

:ph34r:

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1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And I agree with you ;)

 

But I think the rule wording needs some refinement.

 

:ph34r:

 

Agreed!

It obviously is in need of further clarification.

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41 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

But it doesn't say "A Range Officer". It says "Range Officer".

 

Phantom

This line copied directly from RO I manual

 

A Range Officer impeded the progress of the shooter

Edited by Hoss
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But, since all are "Safety Officers," if there is an issue (squib, person/cow down range, range cease fire, etc.) and a non "Range Officer" yells out for the shooter to stop, they should stop. The "TO" should confirm the command, but even if it wasn't, if it caused the shooter to pause his actions (as he probably should) shouldn't a reshoot be offered? I have seen this more than once on potential squibs.

 

Rulebook

"Every participant in a SASS match is expected to be a safety officer. Each shooter’s first responsibility is for his or her own safe conduct. All shooters are expected to remain alert for actions by others that are unsafe. Any Range Officer or shooter may confront any participant about an observed, unsafe situation."  

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1 hour ago, Hoss said:

This line copied directly from RO I manual

 

A Range Officer impeded the progress of the shooter

That's not the rule, but an example.

 

Pretty sure ;)

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28 minutes ago, Itchy Trigger said:

But, since all are "Safety Officers," if there is an issue (squib, person/cow down range, range cease fire, etc.) and a non "Range Officer" yells out for the shooter to stop, they should stop. The "TO" should confirm the command, but even if it wasn't, if it caused the shooter to pause his actions (as he probably should) shouldn't a reshoot be offered? I have seen this more than once on potential squibs.

 

Rulebook

"Every participant in a SASS match is expected to be a safety officer. Each shooter’s first responsibility is for his or her own safe conduct. All shooters are expected to remain alert for actions by others that are unsafe. Any Range Officer or shooter may confront any participant about an observed, unsafe situation."  

Just doesn't work that way. Perhaps the most common Safety Violation called by "non-stage officials" would be breaking the 170. Basically crazy gun handling...drinking alcohol...dropping acid...speaking to imaginary friends...that might warrant non-stage officials to make a "safety" call...

 

If you are not a Stage Officer and you yell Squib and there turns out not to be one, the shooter will not get a reshoot. Yelling "STOP" is not a good thing...with exceptions of course. If I see little Bobby running down range and I'm just sitting around not working the posse, then hell yeah I'm yelling CEASE FIRE! 

 

Phantom

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10 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

That's not the rule, but an example.

 

Pretty sure ;)

It’s cut and pasted directly from the manual 

 

No reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes downrange as determined by the TO and Match Director – EXCEPT for:
- Prop or match equipment failure
- A Range Officer impeded the progress of the shooter (RO Interference)
- Timer failure or unrecorded time

 

i would think the  “A”  Range Officer” would  mean there is more than one. 
 

but what do I know… 

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5 minutes ago, Hoss said:

It’s cut and pasted directly from the manual 

 

No reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes downrange as determined by the TO and Match Director – EXCEPT for:
- Prop or match equipment failure
- A Range Officer impeded the progress of the shooter (RO Interference)
- Timer failure or unrecorded time

 

i would think the  “A”  Range Officer” would  mean there is more than one. 
 

but what do I know… 

I'll let the linguistic experts opine on the last comment...

 

And yes Hoss, I'm aware that you "Cut and Pasted" the referenced line.

 

Can you please show me the definition of "Range Officer"?

 

Thanks!

Phantom

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21 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Just doesn't work that way.

 

It sounds like a contradiction in the rules to me. If any "shooter" can "confront" any "participant" about an "unsafe situation", then the shooter should LISTEN, especially if in the middle of fire. I guarantee you if someone yells cease fire, I will stop shooting until I decide that it is safe to continue shooting. I would much rather take a time penalty than shoot little Bobby. In reality, the TO will probably tell the shooter to stop until they can also determine if it is safe to continue.

 

"Any Range Officer or shooter may confront any participant about an observed, unsafe situation." 

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11 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'll let the linguistic experts opine on the last comment...

 

And yes Hoss, I'm aware that you "Cut and Pasted" the referenced line.

 

Can you please show me the definition of "Range Officer"?

 

Thanks!

Phantom

I’m in agreement that the manual is not 100% clear on this.  But in my mind the rule as written definitely indicates their is more than one RO on the stage. Maybe as PWB has indicated the TO & spotters should be considered LINE OFFICERS and listed as such in manuals to avoid any confusion. 
 

if I’m TO and I feel shooter was impeded by improper coaching by me or a spotter I’m going to give shooter the benefit of the doubt and offer a reshoot. 
 

I know that you (and others) think it would be best for TO to give no coaching.  Not sure I agree with that, but I will agree you have the right yo that opinion. 

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17 minutes ago, Itchy Trigger said:

 

It sounds like a contradiction in the rules to me. If any "shooter" can "confront" any "participant" about an "unsafe situation", then the shooter should LISTEN, especially if in the middle of fire. I guarantee you if someone yells cease fire, I will stop shooting until I decide that it is safe to continue shooting. I would much rather take a time penalty than shoot little Bobby. In reality, the TO will probably tell the shooter to stop until they can also determine if it is safe to continue.

 

"Any Range Officer or shooter may confront any participant about an observed, unsafe situation." 

Well if you want to focus on the Cease Fire command...we can do that. My response was to your general comment regarding calling safety "commands".

 

Practical understanding of the rules is important.

 

Phantom

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18 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I’m in agreement that the manual is not 100% clear on this.  But in my mind the rule as written definitely indicates their is more than one RO on the stage. Maybe as PWB has indicated the TO & spotters should be considered LINE OFFICERS and listed as such in manuals to avoid any confusion. 
 

if I’m TO and I feel shooter was impeded by improper coaching by me or a spotter I’m going to give shooter the benefit of the doubt and offer a reshoot. 
 

I know that you (and others) think it would be best for TO to give no coaching.  Not sure I agree with that, but I will agree you have the right yo that opinion. 

Right now, if a Range Officer impedes...that includes more than just the TO and Spotters. This is the whole point of discussion. There is no definition of "Range Officer" being a specific person and I know that the ROC wanted to limit the ability for a shooter to get a reshoot because of improper coaching to only the TO.

 

As far as removing all coaching...well...I would say that the argument in favor of my position has some precedence. We use to allow TO's to stop a long gun from falling...wasn't fair because some TO's were good and able to do this...some not so much. "We" wanted more even...uniformed performance. So...we now have what we have. But...this is another argument for another day.

 

Phantom

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