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Griff
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Rank Points.

 

Rantonrantoffsmiley.gif?width=590&height  It seems as tho' everytime someone wants to make a point about how "Bad" something is, they bring up rank points.  I still actually prefer rank points.  And I'll provide what some may say is convoluted reasoning.  Rank Points do a couple of things that Total Time is incapable of doing.  1 - Rank Points reward the more consistent shooter over a series of courses of fire that vary in complexity and skill sets.  2 - Rank Points offer the same value to the final match placing for each stage.  By this I mean, in a rank point match, if you finished in second place in every stage, you'd have the same relative placement to the winner of that stage.  Whereas, in a total time match your placement will vary depending on how much slower you were than the winner of that stage.  IOW, the person that beat you has a "head start" towards the finish line.    I'll never find myself in this predicament... but... let's say "Jim Bob" and "Joe Bob" are two fairly close competitors, often trading that top finish, but... Joe Bob is slightly faster with his rifle... most of the time... especially when they are very quick sweeps and don't involve a lot of movement of the barrel between the targets.  So at the hypothetical match, there are two stages that have rifle targets spread from one end of the stage to other... Jim Bob's forte... and two stages where the rifle sweep is a simple back & forth on two targets... Joe Bob smokes these two stages, easily beating Jim Bob by a total of 4 seconds over these two stages... But... Jim Bob is a nimble competitor and eeks out wins on the other 4 stages, but only a ½ second each time... a total of 2 seconds.  Yes... we can all say Joe Bob is the faster shooter... (or is he)?  Who really has the more valid claim to the title "Champion"?  Jim Bob after-all, did win four stages, to Joe Bob's 2.

 

When we had very different scenarios for stages, many times only 2 guns were used to complete a stage, sometimes only one!  Stages were often widely segregated by the amount of time it took folks to run them.  Rank points was really the ONLY way to give each stage equal value to the overall match.  Frankly, unless your stages are all 10-10-4 & stand & deliver, you're only looking at a very biased and arbitrary variable to declare a "winner".  Rantonrantoffsmiley.gif?width=590&height

 

BTW... if your name IS Jim Bob or Joe Bob, please accept my apologies... I had to use 'em because simply using JB would make them indistinguishable!

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Without diving into specifics, there are at least as many good arguments against rank points.  But really, that's not so important.

 

At some point, I'd be happy to stand you a round and we can go circles about it in a friendly manner.  :D

 

While I'm curious, maybe I'm better off not knowing what drove you to post this. :blink:

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20 minutes ago, Griff said:

Rank Points.

 

Rantonrantoffsmiley.gif?width=590&height  It seems as tho' everytime someone wants to make a point about how "Bad" something is, they bring up rank points.  I still actually prefer rank points.  And I'll provide what some may say is convoluted reasoning.  Rank Points do a couple of things that Total Time is incapable of doing.  1 - Rank Points reward the more consistent shooter over a series of courses of fire that vary in complexity and skill sets.  2 - Rank Points offer the same value to the final match placing for each stage.  By this I mean, in a rank point match, if you finished in second place in every stage, you'd have the same relative placement to the winner of that stage.  Whereas, in a total time match your placement will vary depending on how much slower you were than the winner of that stage.  IOW, the person that beat you has a "head start" towards the finish line.    I'll never find myself in this predicament... but... let's say "Jim Bob" and "Joe Bob" are two fairly close competitors, often trading that top finish, but... Joe Bob is slightly faster with his rifle... most of the time... especially when they are very quick sweeps and don't involve a lot of movement of the barrel between the targets.  So at the hypothetical match, there are two stages that have rifle targets spread from one end of the stage to other... Jim Bob's forte... and two stages where the rifle sweep is a simple back & forth on two targets... Joe Bob smokes these two stages, easily beating Jim Bob by a total of 4 seconds over these two stages... But... Jim Bob is a nimble competitor and eeks out wins on the other 4 stages, but only a ½ second each time... a total of 2 seconds.  Yes... we can all say Joe Bob is the faster shooter... (or is he)?  Who really has the more valid claim to the title "Champion"?  Jim Bob after-all, did win four stages, to Joe Bob's 2.

 

When we had very different scenarios for stages, many times only 2 guns were used to complete a stage, sometimes only one!  Stages were often widely segregated by the amount of time it took folks to run them.  Rank points was really the ONLY way to give each stage equal value to the overall match.  Frankly, unless your stages are all 10-10-4 & stand & deliver, you're only looking at a very biased and arbitrary variable to declare a "winner".  Rantonrantoffsmiley.gif?width=590&height

 

BTW... if your name IS Jim Bob or Joe Bob, please accept my apologies... I had to use 'em because simply using JB would make them indistinguishable!

Ain't nothing what burns me up more'n them Bob brothers. I'd give 'em a good ole TN whoopin' if I catch them out somewheres and they didn't see me coming. They stole two hogs from me last year.

 

  I've had matches I would have won by rank points but fell short by time. Usually it's been a situation where I've had one stage go south resulting from brain fade or firearm malfunction. To me I should have been better prepared. Conversely I've experienced the opposite as well. Personally, I think it all comes out in the wash. 

  I'd better go load for the match tomorrow...

Edited by Tennessee williams
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GRIFF,

while I agree with your assessment of folks using the 'Rank Points' as a topic to talk about how bad things use to be, I can't say that

I ever was a fan of RP.

 

One of the best discussion points (I won't say arguments) that I have ever read on the Wire about RP vs TT was Badlands Bud post favoring

TT.   Very well thought out and totally convincing towards using it.   I'm sure DOC probably remembers it and has some of that info

to share with you when you both sit down for a cold Pepsi..... ;)

 

Anyhow, I always read your post with great respect, as this one should also be read.   Hope you have a great day.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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I was raised on Rank Points and never had a problem with them.  They were just the way the "Game" was always played, at least in my area, and I didn't know any different.

 

Then I traveled south and experienced a Total Time match for the first time.  You know what, I hardly noticed the difference.  The fast guys were still fast, the slow guys were still slow, the winners were (mostly) still the winners, and for the vast majority of shooters the effects were so small that it just didn't matter to them.

 

I have followed these discussions for a long time, and there are reasons for, and against, both types of scoring.  It all comes down to how you view the game, is a match one big competition or is it a collection of multiple single stage events?  The answer to that determines which method you prefer.

 

At the end of the day, the only thing that Rank Points had over Total Time was that it was almost impossible to determine who the winner was prior to the Awards presentation.  While that led to a lot of suspense at the Awards Banquet, the fact that it was that in-determinant was probably the best indicator that the Rank Point system had issues.

 

As for me, I think I will just stick with Rank Time Scoring. :P

 

 

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51 minutes ago, john brown said:

 If I am not mistaken wasn't TT pushed by the speedsters and as a side note SASS had far more shooters when Rank score was in use.

 

Just saying

 

No, it was not. This is incorrect.  There were many folks pushing for it  from all over the "speed spectrum".

 

2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

One of the best discussion points (I won't say arguments) that I have ever read on the Wire about RP vs TT was Badlands Bud post favoring

TT.   Very well thought out and totally convincing towards using it.   I'm sure DOC probably remembers it and has some of that info

to share with you when you both sit down for a cold Pepsi..... ;)

 

Indeed.  Bud and I had many discussions regarding scoring methods while driving to various matches.

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4 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

No, it was not. This is incorrect.  There were many folks pushing for it  from all over the "speed spectrum".

 

Indeed.  Bud and I had many discussions regarding scoring methods while driving to various matches.

 Could you  elaborate on this I have been shooting cowboy since 89 and I see a different reason.

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35 minutes ago, john brown said:

 Could you  elaborate on this I have been shooting cowboy since 89 and I see a different reason.

 

To be honest, I'm not so inclined to bring it back up on the Wire.  I'd be happy to discuss in person.

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There are slight deficiencies to both system under specific circumstances.

 

It is very difficult to develop measuring systems for complex things.

 

Many of us figured out that you needed to shoot slightly differently to get your best result under each system.

 

Total time encourages speed with limiting the impact of a miss or two if you can keep up the speed throughout the match.  That is one reason many prefer it.

Of course if you are a cyborg that can be amazingly fast and never miss, it doesn't matter.

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I don't really care which is used. What surprised me years ago when I was new and RP was used , was that a shooter could get a SDQ for dropping a gun and still be the top champion.

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Doc & I have discussed this via PMs in the far distant past... I totally understand his point of view.  I know he understands mine... we just place different emphases on which outcomes are more important.  

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2 hours ago, Griff said:

Doc & I have discussed this via PMs in the far distant past... I totally understand his point of view.  I know he understands mine... we just place different emphases on which outcomes are more important.  

 

2 hours ago, Griff said:

Doc & I have discussed this via PMs in the far distant past... I totally understand his point of view.  I know he understands mine... we just place different emphases on which outcomes are more important.  

 I agree 

 

Best wishes

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One local club used to post results with both rank and time, and most of the time they matched.  I prefer seeing match results that include the rank score for each stage, even if they don't use it for scoring.  Makes it easier to see how you did on any particular stage.

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How many matches have ended up with two shooters having same rank points? And how is it decided? by total time.  I have won and lost due to rank points, same as total time I prefer total time.

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11 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

GRIFF,

while I agree with your assessment of folks using the 'Rank Points' as a topic to talk about how bad things use to be, I can't say that

I ever was a fan of RP.

 

One of the best discussion points (I won't say arguments) that I have ever read on the Wire about RP vs TT was Badlands Bud post favoring

TT.   Very well thought out and totally convincing towards using it.   I'm sure DOC probably remembers it and has some of that info

to share with you when you both sit down for a cold Pepsi..... ;)

 

Anyhow, I always read your post with great respect, as this one should also be read.   Hope you have a great day.

 

..........Widder

 

Hey there, Widder! Of all the days for me to get a wild hair and decide to check out the Wire...

 

There's basically one thing that really bugs me about total time [edit] Rank Points, but there are two direct consequences of the first thing that are also worth thinking about.

 

1. Variable Resolution- The value of 1 rank point is not consistent. The difference between 1 and 2 could be fractions of a second, the difference between 51 and 52 could be 10s of seconds. When compared with total time, the resolution is consistent with each 1/100th of a second being measured and counted for score.

 

2. Due to the variable resolution, penalties are no longer fixed. A miss could cost anywhere from no rank points to however many shooters there were at the match. Penalties aren't just a different value on different stages due to stage design, two different shooters could have a miss on the same stage and the penalty measured in rank points could be different for each shooter. Oddly, this may have a larger impact on shooters at the middle of the bell curve, rather than the tails as wherever there are scores "clustered", a penalty issued in seconds will tend to translate to more rank points. With total time, the penalties are assessed in the same unit as the score, resulting in uniform penalty for the same error/infraction.

 

3. It is possible for penalties to have no impact on score, even safety infractions. If you have a MSV, but the next closest score is 10.01s behind your time (or you were going to be last even without the penalty), your penalty in rank points is 0. Someone who would have been last on the stage just based on their time could even receive no penalty for a SDQ. This, I think, is the strongest argument against RP as a scoring system. In a shooting game, if you have the potential to violate a safety rule and receive no penalty for doing so, it's time to sit down and think about your scoring system. With total time, penalties are always going to add to your score.

 

Rank points never kept me from shooting a match, but the above is my reasoning for preferring total time.

 

Edited by Badlands Bud #15821
clarification
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In addition to what @Badlands Bud #15821 said, above, the thing I could never understand, if cowboy is considered a category centric game, why were rank points given out against the overall and not recalculated in the category ranking only by those in the category?

 

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21 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

In addition to what @Badlands Bud #15821 said, above, the thing I could never understand, if cowboy is considered a category centric game, why were rank points given out against the overall and not recalculated in the category ranking only by those in the category?

 

I believe that was done a couple of times. The issues of variable resolution are magnified by small numbers. You get fair-decent resolution with rank points if you have a couple hundred or more shooters. If you only have a handful of people in a category, it gets wonky PDQ.

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19 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

While I'm curious, maybe I'm better off not knowing what drove you to post this. :blink:

April Fools maybe:wacko: I remember many moons ago at a very large and popular state match where they announced for the first time they would be using TT. Yuda thunk everyone had just won the lottery:D:D. Dust in the wind;), thank you:)

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I too have lost by a fraction with total Time and Rank while I would have won under the other system.  I always figured I was out shot that day.

 

I and many others do like to see the rank placement of each stage.  No need to list the total rank anymore but it is nice to easily see who won each stage, etc.

 

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Howdy BUD.   If you happen to read this post, please tell your Dad that I send a sincere and honest 'Best Regards' to him

and hope he is doing well.

 

Take Care.

 

..........Widder

 

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On 4/2/2022 at 6:46 AM, john brown said:

 If I am not mistaken wasn't TT pushed by the speedsters and as a side note SASS had far more shooters when Rank score was in use.

 

Just saying

Nope

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Having done a ton of scoring for quite some time, I can safely say that I'm happy we're past Rank points.  The problem with rank points is that unless I am first on every stage, my score is dependent on another person's score.   How this affects scoring is that, if a person sees a mistake say early on Sunday morning before 9 am deadline which we set at WR and a change has to be made, it "could" affect other shooters and not even ones in the same category. 

Additionally everyone would always compare total time anyway.

Back when EOT or another match might have stages with wildly different average times, it made more sense as it valued the stages equally.   For example when I would shoot a 2 modern gun match down at Pima Pistol Club, they had 3 fairly short pistol only or pistol and rifle stages and then one 200 yard stage for rifle - that stage had a par time of 180 seconds.  So it would make sense to have rank scoring in that case (funny thing was that they did total time - not sure what they use now).

 

As others have said, having rank or total time didn't affected attendance one way or another at WR or EOT. 

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14 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

Having done a ton of scoring for quite some time, I can safely say that I'm happy we're past Rank points.  The problem with rank points is that unless I am first on every stage, my score is dependent on another person's score.   . . .

Where as it doesn't matter if they shoot faster in total time?  :D

 

As you point out significantly varying stages, work slightly better with Rank.  Plus, since very few understand ranks scoring, they are much happier with total time.

So we now have total time and don't need to worry about other methods used or proposed.

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14 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Where as it doesn't matter if they shoot faster in total time?  :D

 

 

Exactly doesn't change my score just my place. :)

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I am gratified to note that no one accused me of using a cheap shot to pull a April Fool's joke... 

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6 hours ago, Griff said:

I am gratified to note that no one accused me of using a cheap shot to pull a April Fool's joke... 

 

A 2-digit SASS number earns you some respect..... ;)

 

When a 2-digit Cowboy speaks, even E.F.Hutton listens.

 

..........Widder

 

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