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At a recent shoot my son walked to the line and realized that he was short a couple shot gun shells. He turned to me and yelled "hey dad, you got a couple shells?" I handed him 2 and he took some fun natured ribbing about asking Dad for them and of course just plain not having them.  He put them on his belt and waited for the TO to start him. Everyone got a chuckle out of it and that was that. Days later a pard and I were talking and he said he thought that was considered illegal ammo. I have read through all 3 manuals and there is a sentence stating that ammo is only legal if they walk to the line with it. Now I know that you can't give someone ammo while they are running the stage and they can't walk away with loaded guns. But, I have seen plenty of shooters run out, oh well, nothing you can do about that,  and I have seen shooters walk up without SG shells, missed by the shooter and the loading officer but I've never called someone on getting shells or a staged reload before the buzzer goes off. 

Swan

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Realistically one could set their long arms and pistols on the stage and go fetch the ammo and then return if some felt that they had to follow the exact wording instead of the spirit of the rule.  The rule was intended to restrict folks from handing ammo to shooters while shooting which had happened occasionally in the past.

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Just now, Legendary Lawman, SASS 73160 said:

SHB Page 43

Illegally Acquired Ammunition - Ammo NOT carried to the line or staged by the shooter in an approved manner.

 

That would be after the beep.  Not before it.

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27 minutes ago, Johnny Swan, SASS #50322 said:

At a recent shoot my son walked to the line and realized that he was short a couple shot gun shells. He turned to me and yelled "hey dad, you got a couple shells?" I handed him 2 and he took some fun natured ribbing about asking Dad for them and of course just plain not having them.  He put them on his belt and waited for the TO to start him. Everyone got a chuckle out of it and that was that. Days later a pard and I were talking and he said he thought that was considered illegal ammo. I have read through all 3 manuals and there is a sentence stating that ammo is only legal if they walk to the line with it. Now I know that you can't give someone ammo while they are running the stage and they can't walk away with loaded guns. But, I have seen plenty of shooters run out, oh well, nothing you can do about that,  and I have seen shooters walk up without SG shells, missed by the shooter and the loading officer but I've never called someone on getting shells or a staged reload before the buzzer goes off. 

Swan

Your pard needs to re-read the SHB, or take an RO1 class.

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No different than if the TO notices called shooter has no SG shells and reminds shooter.  T.O. should give permission to allow shooter to leave all guns on the stage and retrieve ammo, prior to a shot going downrange.  OR--- T.O. also could require shooter to go the the ULT, unload all guns,  then start again at the LT, rather than pause a busy stage to wait for people to return to their cart.  It is the T.O.s call, but if the stage has not begun by a round going down range, there is no requirement for shooter to begin the stage knowingly with insufficient ammo.  

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Hi Doc

Based on the wording of the rule, as written, I would interpret, "carried to the line'  as being before the timer beep.   Lots of ways to legally correct it before the beep as DDD explains.

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2 minutes ago, Legendary Lawman, SASS 73160 said:

Hi Doc

Based on the wording of the rule, as written, I would interpret, "carried to the line'  as being before the timer beep.   Lots of ways to legally correct it before the beep as DDD explains.

 

 

There's no way I'd penalize a shooter for asking for shells before the beep.  Heck, we had a shooter shoot rifle, then pistols, realize he had no shells, staged his pistols, ran back to his cart for shells, holstered his pistols, then shot the shotgun shots.  I wouldn't penalize that either, even if "by the book" it's illegally acquired ammo.  At some point, good judgement comes into play.  Along with the other stricture "don't be a hard-ass", which I recall is also in the SHB.

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36 minutes ago, Johnny Swan, SASS #50322 said:

Days later a pard and I were talking and he said he thought that was considered illegal ammo.

Just an opinion ya understand ........................ But that pard might wanna find a quiet place and have a long talk with himself .

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14 minutes ago, Legendary Lawman, SASS 73160 said:

SHB Page 43

Illegally Acquired Ammunition - Ammo NOT carried to the line or staged by the shooter in an approved manner.

 

The object of the rule isn't about the ammo being 'not carried to the line',  but rather

how the ammo was carried to the line.

 

Example:  we can't carry ammo to the line in an orafice, like our mouth or cleavages, etc.....

Or stuck up behind our ears, etc.....

 

If the shooter acquired the ammo before the beep, in the manner which the OP described,

and put the ammo (or staged it) in the SG belt, then all is legal.

 

Atleast that is how I read that rule.

 

I'm sure PWB or BWJ will chime in to help us all out, depending on which one of them has

the Friday nite Wire watch..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Doc Shapiro said:

There's no way I'd penalize a shooter for asking for shells before the beep.  Heck, we had a shooter shoot rifle, then pistols, realize he had no shells, staged his pistols, ran back to his cart for shells, holstered his pistols, then shot the shotgun shots.  I wouldn't penalize that either, even if "by the book" it's illegally acquired ammo.  At some point, good judgement comes into play.  Along with the other stricture "don't be a hard-ass", which I recall is also in the SHB.

 

They changed this rule a while back specifically prohibiting this action. It used to be a gray area...

 

SHB pg 22

Quote

SDQ

Leaving the firing line once the stage has begun for any reason.

 

SHB pg 27

Quote

Ammo conventions

A shooter may not leave the line once the stage has begun to retrieve ammo or firearms until all firearms brought to the line are verified as clear. The penalty for this violation is a Stage Disqualification

 

it is not a gray area any more...

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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Just verifying definitions.

 

SHB 43:

Quote

Firing line  from first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table.

 

Page 27:

 

  • Quote

    Illegally acquired ammunition is any ammunition not carried to the line and/or staged by the shooter in an approved manner.

     

Is there a different line defined than the firing line? I get the distinction once the first round goes down range, the shooter then "owns" the stage, but I can not find anything defining "the" line other than the "firing" line.

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54 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

 

There's no way I'd penalize a shooter for asking for shells before the beep.

Not disagreeing with you, your post made me dig into the SHB hence my question in my previous post.

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45 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

They changed this rule a while back specifically prohibiting this action. It used to be a gray area...

 

SHB pg 22

 

SHB pg 27

 

it is not a gray area any more...

 

Thanks for the clarification. 

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Again - PLEASE stop trying to parse words.

And stop LOOKING for ways to penalize a shooter for no purpose other than to play "Gotcha".

 

The rule was created to forbid the transfer and use of ammo that was not carried legally upon the shooters person at the BEEP.

Is the current rule worded poorly? 

Yes; and perhaps seeing the unwarranted attempts at assessing penalties - the ROC might suggest an edit for the next handbook.

 

But RULES only exist for two reasons - to maintain a safe environment and keep everyone within the same box competitively.

 

BEFORE you attempt to apply a rule or assign penalty - especially where the rule is ambiguous or wording is not clear - ask yourself two simple questions:

Was the action unsafe or could be construed as unsafe under certain conditions?

Was a competitive advantage not available to others achieved by this action?

 

If the answer is NO to both of these questions - then the THIRD question should be

Why would there be a rule/ penalty covering this - if it is not unsafe and/ or provides no competitive advantage that is not available to everyone else?

 

The answer is THERE WOULDN'T BE - so trying to apply the rule/ assign penalty in this regard is likely not a correct application/understanding of the rule.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

I'll let PWB tackle this one....

 

 

 

Question:

By definition, " Course of Fire" and "Stage" both begin with the beep of the timer.  The "Firing Line" begins with the first gun placed on the loading table.  

So here is the question, stated via example:

 

 SG is first gun. Shooter says ready, T.O. beeps/starts timer, but then shooter discovers no SG shells.  Can T.O. allow a Restart if no round has yet gone downrange?   -- after shooter legally acquires the missing ammo. ?  WTC?

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12 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Question:

By definition, " Course of Fire" and "Stage" both begin with the beep of the timer.  The "Firing Line" begins with the first gun placed on the loading table.  

So here is the question, stated via example:

 

 SG is first gun. Shooter says ready, T.O. beeps/starts timer, but then shooter discovers no SG shells.  Can T.O. allow a Restart if no round has yet gone downrange?   -- after shooter legally acquires the missing ammo. ?  WTC?

The stage is NOT owned by the shooter until the first round has gone downrange.

A "reasonable" number of restarts should be granted for ANY purpose prior to that first round going downrange.

And Yes, even a squib round on ROUND one is acceptable justification for a restart as no round went downrange.

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34 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The stage is NOT owned by the shooter until the first round has gone downrange.

A "reasonable" number of restarts should be granted for ANY purpose prior to that first round going downrange.

And Yes, even a squib round on ROUND one is acceptable justification for a restart as no round went downrange.

Yep happened to me at EOT the last one in New Mexico, rifle was the first gun and pop no bang! Still don't know how that happened as I shoot black powder and hand dip my load. 

Rafe

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Aside from references to "before/at the BEEP", consider also the RESTART rule that refers to "first round" going downrange:

 

Quote

Restarts shall be allowed for a competitor to achieve a “clean” start, before the first round goes down range. Multiple restarts by the same shooter, that in the judgment of the CRO/TO are seen to be “taking advantage,” will not be entertained as they are not in the Spirit of the Game.

SHB p.20

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...and the OP is a NO CALL.

 

The ammo was being carried in an approved manner when the stage started.

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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