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WTC falling Rifle


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If it is the safest thing to do then what is your call in regards to a penalty?  Not saying your wrong, but how are you going to handle it.  I put up this question a year or two ago and the answers were very mixed.  Some said they would never allow a rifle to hit the ground and some said if your going to give me a penalty let my firearm hit the ground.   Another told me I should not time for him if I would not try to keep his rifle from hitting the ground.  It is a tough call.  While trying to save someone's rifle you my sometime lose track of the shooter your safely assisting.  All you can do is the best you can do!

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11 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Not if stopping it causes your finger to hit the trigger...while pointing at someone vitals...

 

Phantom

Yes.  I understand that.  However, I was referring to the cases when it can be done safely.

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14 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Yes.  I understand that.  However, I was referring to the cases when it can be done safely.

I'm with ya...for sure. Problem is that sometimes one's reflex reaction can bypass the safety thing...

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For most of us, I think our natural instincts would take over and we would try to catch the rifle. May be the wrong thing to do, but hard not to do it. I also think that most of the time those same instincts will cause us to catch the rifle in a way that keeps the old booger hook off the bang button. 
 

I suspect catching the rifle is probably safer than letting it fall, but impossible to prove/disprove that. We can only do our best. 

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5 minutes ago, Hoss said:

For most of us, I think our natural instincts would take over and we would try to catch the rifle. May be the wrong thing to do, but hard not to do it. I also think that most of the time those same instincts will cause us to catch the rifle in a way that keeps the old booger hook off the bang button. 
 

I suspect catching the rifle is probably safer than letting it fall, but impossible to prove/disprove that. We can only do our best. 

I'm with you on the impossible to prove/disprove since it's doubtful that anyone is going to actually run experiments...

 

We can all agree that an empty gun posses no threat.

 

Therefore, if the gun is a threat if it starts to fall, then it's loaded. The likelihood of the ground causing the gun to fire is pretty slim. The hammer/sear would have to fail or the ground would have to somehow hit the trigger. I think it's more likely that a person who instinctively grabs at the falling rifle is going to accidentally hit the trigger. 

 

Hence my position that it's safer to let the rifle fall.

 

Or...am I just "Stirring the Pot"?

 

Phantom

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1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm with you on the impossible to prove/disprove since it's doubtful that anyone is going to actually run experiments...

 

We can all agree that an empty gun posses no threat.

 

Therefore, if the gun is a threat if it starts to fall, then it's loaded. The likelihood of the ground causing the gun to fire is pretty slim. The hammer/sear would have to fail or the ground would have to somehow hit the trigger. I think it's more likely that a person who instinctively grabs at the falling rifle is going to accidentally hit the trigger. 

 

Hence my position that it's safer to let the rifle fall.

 

Or...am I just "Stirring the Pot"?

 

Phantom

I personally think the penalty for a dropped empty gun is too severe. If it’s empty, there is zero risk. Make it an MSV. I doubt that rule will ever be changed. But the hammer back from LT to stage was changed, so I suppose it’s possible. 
 

and probably the only person that likes to “stir the pot” more than you is .......

me :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, Hoss said:

I personally think the penalty for a dropped empty gun is too severe. If it’s empty, there is zero risk. Make it an MSV. I doubt that rule will ever be changed. But the hammer back from LT to stage was changed, so I suppose it’s possible. 
 

and probably the only person that likes to “stir the pot” more than you is .......

me :ph34r:

I don't know Hoss...I understand the MSV position, but I think the penalty being so sever is supposed to act as some kind of deterrent for bad gun handling. I frankly don't think it does...or shall I say that whether it's an MSV or a SDQ, bad gun handlers aren't going to be altering their behavior.

 

And seriously, most of the time I just like a good debate. Pot Stirring happens some times...but it's far from my primary motive.

 

Cheers! See ya at a Texas event soon I'm sure ;)

 

 

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4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The likelihood of the ground causing the gun to fire is pretty slim. The hammer/sear would have to fail or the ground would have to somehow hit the trigger. I think it's more likely that a person who instinctively grabs at the falling rifle is going to accidentally hit the trigger.

I guess that's true for stock guns, but it is rumored that some people in CAS use guns with trigger jobs and lightened triggers ;) ? The trigger does not need to hit something, its inertia might be enough, SIG P320 comes to mind... :ph34r:

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I will follow the rule, but I don’t like it. It makes zero sense to me. There are plenty of ways that TO’s ‘safely assist’ shooters that can impact how well the shooter performs in the match. Why discourage TO’s from exercising judgement particularly on a safety issue?

 

A couple of months ago, last stage of the day, Potshot forgets the rifle sequence and is about to pick up a P. The TO, me, catches it and tells him the right target. He finishes the stage and wins the match by about 2 seconds over the second place shooter, me.

 

Did good coaching change the outcome? For sure. That P would have knocked him down to at least 3rd.

 

A different TO might have caught it, or might not have. It was within the rules to coach him, so how is that different from a TO seeing a rifle teetering and pushing it a little farther onto the table?

 

One situation had nothing to do with safety, affects the outcome, and is legal.

 

The other situation does involve safety, affects the outcome, and isn’t legal because it might ‘affect the outcome.’

 

I don’t get that, if anything it should be the other way around. If it involves safety, the TO should be free to act, if it doesn’t let the shooter figure it out.

 

 

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Several different thoughts here.  There is discussion of the relative safety of an unloaded gun falling.  That might challenge the basic rule of "treat every gun as if it is loaded".  

The TO did observe the shooter fire the proper number of rounds for the scenario and thus the gun "should" be empty.  The odds of overloading the gun on the same stage that it is is dropped is quite small.

The TO probably watched the shooter put the gun down and knows if the lever has closed making it possible to fire.  Lever is still open?  Not going to fire.

Is it breaking the 180 and thus pointing toward people as it falls?  More reason to grab it.  Pointing to an empty corner of the stage?  Less reason to grab it.

If you are going to grab it avoid the lock, reach for the stock or barrel.  It's more area to grab anyway.  

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26 minutes ago, Doc McCoy, SASS #8381 said:

Several different thoughts here.  There is discussion of the relative safety of an unloaded gun falling.  That might challenge the basic rule of "treat every gun as if it is loaded".  

The TO did observe the shooter fire the proper number of rounds for the scenario and thus the gun "should" be empty.  The odds of overloading the gun on the same stage that it is is dropped is quite small.

The TO probably watched the shooter put the gun down and knows if the lever has closed making it possible to fire.  Lever is still open?  Not going to fire.

Is it breaking the 180 and thus pointing toward people as it falls?  More reason to grab it.  Pointing to an empty corner of the stage?  Less reason to grab it.

If you are going to grab it avoid the lock, reach for the stock or barrel.  It's more area to grab anyway.  

I think it’s gotta be the TO using his best split second judgment. Probably going to be right 99.9% of the time. 
99.9% is also the chance that the rifle, having fired 10 rounds is truly empty. 
 

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6 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

I guess that's true for stock guns, but it is rumored that some people in CAS use guns with trigger jobs and lightened triggers ;) ? The trigger does not need to hit something, its inertia might be enough, SIG P320 comes to mind... :ph34r:

I don't know of any serious competitor in SASS...or any other dynamic shooting sport that would have their trigger in such condition.

 

Phantom

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On 6/8/2021 at 3:15 PM, Ace_of_Hearts said:

With 700+ shooters, straw bails become "well used" after awhile.

IMO, a lot of gun "slippages" can br prevented simply by paying proper attention to the prop design and maintenance, both prior to and during the match.  The straw bale should have been replaced or flipped over, or better yet, replaced prior to the match with something more durable and stable.  

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So the Rules Officials made a rule that if you manage to catch a long gun from falling, the shooter still gets the penalty. All in the name of "equality" among TO's due to TO efficiency or lack thereof. I don't agree with it, but it's the rule.

 

I think that we should focus on bigger issues. They should make a rule that it is not permitted to rain, lightning, hail or have tornadic activity on either the morning or afternoon shifts unless it does it on both. If it doesn't rain, lightning, hail or have a tornado on both...the posse that didn't receive the foul weather shall have the option to add 3 seconds a stage to their scores or reshoot the stage while being sprayed with a hose, shooting with a giant Tesla coil, getting ice dropped on them or whatever could be done to simulate a tornado.

 

There, now that should level the playing field even more.

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25 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I don't know of any serious competitor in SASS...or any other dynamic shooting sport that would have their trigger in such condition.

 

Probably, this is a theoretical question anyway as the chance that a SA revolver or a rifle has a live round in the chamber and is cocked when it's dropped is minimal. And then, it would still have to fall on the backstrap to go off, so the chance becomes even less than minimal...

But I bet every revolver used in our game that hasn't a (working) transfer bar or a retractable firing pin would go off if dropped that way, the only question is from which hight on what ground. Would be an interesting experiment, but I won't do it with my guns :P

And as I said, theoretical. Just don't drop chambered guns!

 

Equanimous Phil

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6 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

I think that we should focus on bigger issues. They should make a rule that it is not permitted to rain, lightning, hail or have tornadic activity on either the morning or afternoon shifts unless it does it on both. If it doesn't rain, lightning, hail or have a tornado on both...the posse that didn't receive the foul weather shall have the option to add 3 seconds a stage to their scores or reshoot the stage while being sprayed with a hose, shooting with a giant Tesla coil, getting ice dropped on them or whatever could be done to simulate a tornado.

 

There, now that should level the playing field even more.

 

No you're underthinking this.  If one group has to deal with high winds or rain, we can use large fans and water hoses to simulate it for the other groups.  It's the only way to be fair.  Bare electrical wires can simulate lightning. 

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The extra weird thing about this is, the shooter was downrange from the rifle and it was behind him. The rifle didn't break the 170 of the firing line, but it was pointed at the shooters downrange as it fell.

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2 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

The extra weird thing about this is, the shooter was downrange from the rifle and it was behind him. The rifle didn't break the 170 of the firing line, but it was pointed at the shooters downrange as it fell.

No call on sweeping one's self, but if it also swept the Timer Operator or spotters downrange = SDQ (if unloaded) = MDQ if loaded upon inspection.  

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33 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

No call on sweeping one's self, but if it also swept the Timer Operator or spotters downrange = SDQ (if unloaded) = MDQ if loaded upon inspection.  

Shooters are rarely by themselves while shooting a stage...but of course you know that.

 

Funny thing though - never had anyone interpret "Sweeping one's self" this way...guess that's because when a stage has down range movement the "170" rule regarding staged rifles is no longer strictly applied but rather the concept of "Down Range" is...

 

Phantom

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16 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

No call on sweeping one's self,

Thats if they are in control of the gun. He wasn't. The gun was falling, towards the shooter, not straight at but, then the TO grabbed the gun and barrel went all over the place except up range breaking the 170.

And following the video the rifle never came to a stop and then proceed to move and fall. So the minor safety wouldn't apply. This was clearly the shooters fault so a SDQ was issued. I explained the deal about TO's trying to stop a falling gun to the TO. We both understood the SDQ still applied. But as its been said you see a gun falling your instinct is to try and stop it.

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