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WTC. Coaching


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Posted (edited)

Proper coaching or no coaching shall not be considered grounds for a reshoot.

We all know this one.

So a shooter receiving "Improper" coaching may be considered for a reshoot.

 

So heres the question - who EXACTLY is a coach?

The TO.  Ok.  That one is obvious.

The spotters?

The peanut gallery at large?

 

And IF there are folks who ARE considered coaches and folks who ARE NOT coaches - how is the shooter to differentiate?

 

Today:  New shooter with unfamiliar firearms on a "interesting" sequence.

Between gun hiccups, starts, stops and fumbles - some observers lost their place on the sequence. 

Shooter placed their rifle down after their string and heard, "One left in the rifle" yelled by a posse member.  Being new - the shooter obviously stopped their progress, picked the rifle and cycled it a couple times seeking that "one more" round.  None existed.

 

Obviously this is improper coaching...

And certainly grounds for a reshoot to be offered - especially for a new shooter.

 

But is improper coaching always grounds for offering a reshoot?

And again - who exactly is a coach?

 

Before you answer...

Consider the same scenario above with an experienced shooter.

Consider the same scenario above with an experienced unethical shooter (who has unethical friends on the posse just waiting to call out {improper coaching} instruction in case of trainwreck).

 

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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Posted (edited)

Technically, the stage officers are the only one's that can give bad information that allows for a reshoot...unless they've changed the rules since the last WR.

 

If I recall correctly, The T.O, Spotters, and the Score Keeper are Stage Officials. Any Stage Official that give incorrect "Coaching" allows for a reshoot to be offered to the shooter. No one else's "Coaching" counts...and sometimes this sucks.

 

Now last I heard, this was not what the "Rules Folks" wanted. They wanted on one person to be able to give improper coaching that would allow for an offer for a reshoot - the T.O. However, unless they've changed the wording, those that I mentioned earlier can be held liable...for lack of a better word.

 

Phantom

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973
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6 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Technically, the stage officers are the only one's that can give bad information that allows for a reshoot...unless they've changed the rules since the last WR.

 

If I recall correctly, The T.O, Spotters, and the Score Keeper are Stage Officials. Any Stage Official that give incorrect "Coaching" allows for a reshoot to be offered to the shooter. No one else's "Coaching" counts...and sometimes this sucks.

This was my understanding as well.

And someone at the range said, "The NEW shooter wouldn't know who to listen to and who to ignore - but an experienced shooter would"

 

This brings me to the 2nd component.

I'm not looking behind me (usually) as I shoot, but I know the voices of the folks I shoot with regularly (and who I would ignore).

 

But at a major shoot - I don't know these folks - I don't know whose voice to listen to listen to and who to ignore.

 

Is my match subject to the whims of a poorly disciplined peanut gallery?

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TO only is my understanding 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

This was my understanding as well.

And someone at the range said, "The NEW shooter wouldn't know who to listen to and who to ignore - but an experienced shooter would"

 

This brings me to the 2nd component.

I'm not looking behind me (usually) as I shoot, but I know the voices of the folks I shoot with regularly (and who I would ignore).

 

But at a major shoot - I don't know these folks - I don't know whose voice to listen to listen to and who to ignore.

 

Is my match subject to the whims of a poorly disciplined peanut gallery?

I'd cut some slack for the Brand New Shooter...just once.

 

And yes, our rules on coaching suck! There is NO WAY to know who is giving you advice. In my opinion, there should be NO coaching. We accept the shooters word when they say that they are ready...or when they give the T.O. the starting line.

 

Phantom

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973
The coaching rules suck...and so does me spelling
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1 minute ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

TO only is my understanding 

Unfortunately you are wrong...unless as I stated above they've changed the wording.

 

Trust me. I ran this issue all the way up the "ladder"...they hated the fact that I was right:P

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18 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

<snip>

 

Is my match subject to the whims of a poorly disciplined peanut gallery?

 

Yup, sure is up to the whims of the peanut gallery.  Same way as it's up to the whims of spotters that just don't see the edge hit on the rifle target, and didn't hear the ding.

 

That's the frustrating part for me.  Scoring in this game is ultimately subjective, not objective. 

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I have always felt that the rules should be clear and concise on this matter. The TO, the one who is arms length from the shooter, the one charged with "safely assisting the shooter through the course of fire. This should be the one and only person to be listened to. I realize it's not currently that way, but feel it should be.

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45 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

I have always felt that the rules should be clear and concise on this matter. The TO, the one who is arms length from the shooter, the one charged with "safely assisting the shooter through the course of fire. This should be the one and only person to be listened to. I realize it's not currently that way, but feel it should be.

That's the way "They" intended for it to be...I just simply pointed out the OOPS! in the rules. They were supposed to change it...

 

But still, in the heat of the battle, it's really hard to know exactly WHO gave a command. Hence why I think no coaching should be the rule unless it's an issue that posses an immediate safety hazard...maybe...

 

Ugh!

 

Phantom

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3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

That's the way "They" intended for it to be...I just simply pointed out the OOPS! in the rules. They were supposed to change it...

 

But still, in the heat of the battle, it's really hard to know exactly WHO gave a command. Hence why I think no coaching should be the rule unless it's an issue that posses an immediate safety hazard...maybe...

 

Ugh!

 

Phantom

And that's why I think the TO should be the one. Honestly, if the shooter can't tell when the person immediately behind them is speaking, coaching, giving instructions, does that person really have a complaint if they fail to follow the TO's directives?

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Posted (edited)

IMO, unless the shooter requests, there should not be any coaching whatsoever.  Once the beep occurs, the shooter owns the stage.

Edited by Doc Shapiro
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Just now, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

And that's why I think the TO should be the one. Honestly, if the shooter can't tell when the person immediately behind them is speaking, coaching, giving instructions, does that person really have a complaint if they fail to follow the TO's directives?

I'm with you to a certain point Goody. Problem is that the shooter is now dependent on the quality of the T.O. I've never liked this fact. Some posses have good T.O.'s and some have terrible ones...most are somewhere in between. But still, the shooter's success in a match may come down to who had the better T.O.

 

Just don't like that...ya know?

 

Phantom

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Just now, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm with you to a certain point Goody. Problem is that the shooter is now dependent on the quality of the T.O. I've never liked this fact. Some posses have good T.O.'s and some have terrible ones...most are somewhere in between. But still, the shooter's success in a match may come down to who had the better T.O.

 

Just don't like that...ya know?

 

Phantom

I hear you. But so long as we are dependent on volunteer labor, yes up to and including the world championship, it's the best we can do. Some better vetting of the people who are allowed to hold the timer would be a start. Give the PM at the big matches a list of TO-1 trained members of their posse and make it clear that these are the people that are to be allowed to be TO's. I know this doesn't fix all problems, but at least a start. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm with you to a certain point Goody. Problem is that the shooter is now dependent on the quality of the T.O. I've never liked this fact. Some posses have good T.O.'s and some have terrible ones...most are somewhere in between. But still, the shooter's success in a match may come down to who had the better T.O.

 

Just don't like that...ya know?

 

Phantom

 

I agree with this.  The fact of the matter is that the only way to keep each stage run fair, once the beep happens, the TO just is quiet.  Only exception for safety issues.  Otherwise, just let the shooter have the stage.  Course, for big matches, we ought to paint between shooters so that hits can be assessed accurately.

 

That's enough for me now.  Dinner is getting close and the potatoes need some attention.  Have a great night all.

 

 

Edited by Doc Shapiro
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3 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

I hear you. But so long as we are dependent on volunteer labor, yes up to and including the world championship, it's the best we can do. Some better vetting of the people who are allowed to hold the timer would be a start. Give the PM at the big matches a list of TO-1 trained members of their posse and make it clear that these are the people that are to be allowed to be TO's. I know this doesn't fix all problems, but at least a start. 

One of the best T.O. I ever had never got a RO-anything (China Camp), and some of the worse T.O's have been the one's that have gone through thru the R.O training.

 

There's only one way to be a good T.O. - Work Hard At It!!!! Focus on the job at hand...don't know anyway to qualify someone to be a T.O...unfortunately. 

 

Phantom

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Agree with folks that only safety issues should get addressed, other than that I try not to coach but sometimes it is hard not to, heat of the moment. However it is getting harder to find folks to grab the timer or even a spotting stick. 

Rafe

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Posted (edited)

Without doubt Coaching was one of the major issues and problems that the ROC had to deal with. I just don't have the energy to start down this road again, but will say just a couple things. First, it was intended that coaching be the domain of the T.O.. Second, through out the old RO courses the term Range Officer (R.O.) was VERY often used when the actual person being referenced was the Timer Operator (T.O.). This interchangeable labeling didn't help.  It was also taught that all the Posse Officials (spotters, LTO, ULTO, Score Keepers) were Range Officers. This just fed the misconception of who was allowed to coach. My advice is to do as little coaching as possible while keeping in mind that the T.O. should safely assist the shooter through the course of fire. 

 

Snakebite 

Edited by Snakebite
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It is especially frustrating when the TO and a Spotter or two give conficting coaching commands.  Best two out three is not the right call in this instance.  I simply stop the shooter, direct him/her to the unloading table and once cleared, to the loading table for another try!  The TO is the Chief Range Officer, and has the authority to make the hard calls.  Control your spotter's enthusiasm.

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4 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Without doubt Coaching was one of the major issues and problems that the ROC had to deal with. I just don't have the energy to start down this road again, but will say just a couple things. First, it was intended that coaching be the domain of the T.O.. Second, through out the old RO courses the term Range Officer (R.O.) was VERY often used when the actual person being referenced was the Timer Operator (T.O.). This interchangeable labeling didn't help.  It was also taught that all the Posse Officials (spotters, LTO, ULTO, Score Keepers) were Range Officers. This just fed the misconception of who was allowed to coach. My advice is to do as little coaching as possible while keeping in mind that the T.O. should safely assist the shooter through the course of fire. 

 

Snakebite 

 

Hi Snakebite.  I can respect that you don't have the energy to go down the road again, but this really ought to be codified within the rules and made explicit.  It really will help.

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5 minutes ago, Griff said:

It is especially frustrating when the TO and a Spotter or two give conficting coaching commands.  Best two out three is not the right call in this instance.  I simply stop the shooter, direct him/her to the unloading table and once cleared, to the loading table for another try!  The TO is the Chief Range Officer, and has the authority to make the hard calls.  Control your spotter's enthusiasm.

But that's not how it's done. Shooter should always finish the stage, record time etc,etc...then offer the reshoot.

 

Phantom

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5 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

But that's not how it's done. Shooter should always finish the stage, record time etc,etc...then offer the reshoot.

Phantom

Why?  10 seconds into a 50 second run... confusion reigns... nip it in the bud before a safety infraction can occur and save the shooter from incurring a penalty that carries over.  The TO is there to... need I repeat it?

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Posted (edited)

Unfortunately, assisting the shooter safely through the course of fire has morphed in coaching to anticipate and prevent shooter errors. As a result coaching is now expected by many shooters so they can get a clean stage. I've actually had shooters get angry with me because I didn't/wasn't able to prevent a mental lapse that resulted in a P. In their words, it was my fault they got a P.

 

I'm of the opinion that any kind of coaching often results in the shooter getting flustered and making a mistake worse than if he'd been left alone. That was reflected in a recent post where a shooter shot his last pistol shot out of sequence due to TO untimely instructions.

 

These days I say very little and am working my way to saying nothing at all. I'll help the brand new shooters as best I can for a match or two, but only for those matches. The others should be on their own IMHO. I also think the peanut gallery should keep quiet, period. I've been distracted more than once by them shouting the wrong thing because for example, they didn't understand shooter's choice and couldn't keep up with what I was doing.

 

Other than safety issues, I think it's best to keep quiet. But I don't think we're going to get that other coaching thing back in the bag.

 

Edited by Abilene Slim SASS 81783
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I would also 'think' that an over exuberant Peanut Gallery member hollering out instructions, etc.....

could be considered outside interference.

 

Don't you just hate it when 2, 3 or 4 folks yell out something in succession, making it sound like

your in a cave with a bad echo.

And how about the score keeper calling out someones name while your on the firing line.

and the name sounds like 'Cease Fire'..... :wacko:

 

..........Widder

 

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I'm still a new shooter: less than a dozen matches.  Personally, I get really confused with multiple people shouting different "advice", making the situation even worse.  It once caused me a DQ, because someone told me to shoot from a different position, but I had already cocked my revolver.  (I accept that I'm ultimately responsible for following the rules, but a P for shooting from the wrong window would be much better than the DQ.

 

What I do really like, especially when shooting black powder, is the "UP" yell when the shotgun target fails to fall.  Other than that, I'd prefer that only the TO speaks while I'm shooting.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

Hi Snakebite.  I can respect that you don't have the energy to go down the road again, but this really ought to be codified within the rules and made explicit.  It really will help.

Hi Doc...As far as I can see, this issue has been straightened out. The confusion from earlier documents has been corrected. The current SHB states: "Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO) – is the Chief Range Officer (CRO) for the stage and is in charge of the firing line as long as he/she is running the timer and has the primary objective to safely assist the shooter through the course of fire." #6 under he/her duties is Coaching. No other person is charged with that duty. In the ROI, it further clarifies that as far as the shooter is concerned, the T.O. is the R.O. IMO, the only issue is that so many folks are locked in on how they think it is rather than how it is. Coaching belongs to the T.O.. No other person is assigned that duty. Beyond my occasional rules comments here on the wire and telling "War Stories",  I have ZERO input now days. Again, IMO, the problem is fixed. How it is handled by the T.O. is the only thing left to deal with. Phantom is correct about getting a time when ever possible. But on the other hand, if I am running the timer and someone interferes and I think it cost the shooter, then that shooter is owed a reshoot. Stopping him is certainly one way to ensure that will happen.   

Edited by Snakebite
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Thanks, Snakebit!

 

We wish everything was clear, but that is not life.  (When is sunrise, when you first see the top of the sun?  Or the middle, or when you can see it all?

What if it is cloudy or you are in the trees?)  So definitions are vital but not always easy or easily defined or interpreted in practice.

 

We have to balance competition with safety.  Since everyone is a safety officer, it can become more complicated.

So I like the ideas of Griff and Snakebite.  It will always take some logic and good analysis to make it the best we possibly can.

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9 hours ago, Griff said:

Why?  10 seconds into a 50 second run... confusion reigns... nip it in the bud before a safety infraction can occur and save the shooter from incurring a penalty that carries over.  The TO is there to... need I repeat it?

Well I know that at WR and EOT, you are required to finish the stage. You as the T.O. do not have the authority to issue a reshoot... particularly during the running of a stage.

 

Monthlies... Whatever.

 

So that's the way it goes...

 

Phantom

 

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well I know that at WR and EOT, you are required to finish the stage. You as the T.O. do not have the authority to issue a reshoot... particularly during the running of a stage.

 

Monthlies... Whatever.

 

So that's the way it goes...

 

Phantom

 

That is correct. Both matches require approval before a reshoot is allowed. I don't believe that directive is in place for a restart. Even if it were in effect I see no way it could be inforced. JMO

Edited by Snakebite
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2 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

That is correct. Both matches require approval before a reshoot is allowed. I don't believe that directive is in place for a restart. Even if it were in effect I see no way it could be inforced. JMO

Nope - don't need it for a restart...boy would that slow the match down :lol:

 

 

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12 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

I have always felt that the rules should be clear and concise on this matter. The TO, the one who is arms length from the shooter, the one charged with "safely assisting the shooter through the course of fire. This should be the one and only person to be listened to. I realize it's not currently that way, but feel it should be.

 

I disagree.  We emphasize that everyone is responsible for safety. Therefore, by our own rules, the shooter has to listen to everyone. The example above would have been a minor safety penalty if a round was left on the carrier so the shooter was correct to listen. 

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I think the whole issue of Coaching needs to be addressed. Is SASS a shooting competition or is it a "Watch me and for god's sake, help me run through the stage as good as I can" Dress up meeting.

 

There is no way on God's Green Earth that folks with all levels of hearing, with hearing protection (hopefully), can distinguish who is calling out a command...simply can't be done.

 

Why do we allow coaching at all??? Okay...maybe call SG targets "UP"...:ph34r:

 

It should be the duty of the T.O. to make sure that the shooter doesn't do something that may cause harm (that does not include harming one's ego), but outside of that...it shouldn't be their job to make sure that the shooter has the best results on a stage.

 

Phantom

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2 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

I disagree.  We emphasize that everyone is responsible for safety. Therefore, by our own rules, the shooter has to listen to everyone. The example above would have been a minor safety penalty if a round was left on the carrier so the shooter was correct to listen. 

Not while on a stage...

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1 minute ago, Shooting Bull said:

That must be the part I’m missing. I was under the impression it was true especially during a stage. 

The T.O. takes control of the shooter once the shooter is called to the line...that's why the T.O. is supposed to stay within arms length of the shooter even when they are staging their guns...I'm sure that if I'm wrong someone will correct me.

 

Phantom

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4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Nope - don't need it for a restart...boy would that slow the match down :lol:

 

 

There is no doubt that this entire situation can be "Sticky". We all know that subjectivity is a part of the Rule enforcement in this game. Unfortunately everyone that get their hands on the Timer doesn't have the same view of things. I agree that offering a reshoot at the Big Matches ought to have concurrence by a Major Match official before it is given. I just don't see any way that "Coaching" by Peanut folks or kneejerk reaction from others on the Firing line will ever be stopped. The closest we can come is to educate shooters that if they respond to instructions from anyone other than the T.O., that it falls upon them. I can offer one excellent example of that. EOT a few years ago. Shooter pulls second handgun and sweeps the target from the wrong direction. A shout comes from the back field to "Stop". The shooter stops. I instructed him to continue. He refused. I told him he would receive a DNF. He then continued and we got a time on him. He appealed and lost the appeal. Turns out that the call came from his wife. If he made a mistake she would yell stop, he would stop and then argue with the T.O. and get a reshoot claiming that he was just following orders. I had a couple folks come over to me after the fact and tell me that was normal routine that he and his wife used at matches. This was NOT a run of the mill shooter.

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