Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Polish star capper for on the clock reloads


Recommended Posts

So the rules allow for a sixth chamber to be loaded and remain uncapped for use in on the clock reloads for cap and ball revolvers.  I was playing with my new polish star capper yesterday and noticed I could easily cap the next to fire chamber on the ASM 1858.  This means that you could shoot five and if you thought a reload was necessary,  simply cap, cock and fire without having to do any manual cylinder indexing...  thought ya'll might like to know. 

 

El CupAJoe

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

You need to cap that loaded chamber BEFORE you fire the first shot. And ONLY load that 6th chamber if the stage calls for it.

Edited by Tyrel Cody
  • Like 3
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

What Tyrel said.

Otherwise, you stand a very good chance of having a chain fire.

--Dawg

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Good to know, don't want any chain fires.  I don't know if I saw any instructions about when to cap your sixth chamber except on the clock... if the rules don't specify,  it might be a good addition. I'll have to go read again. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, El CupAJoe said:

Good to know, don't want any chain fires.  I don't know if I saw any instructions about when to cap your sixth chamber except on the clock... if the rules don't specify,  it might be a good addition. I'll have to go read again. 

 

PG 13

"If a particular stage requires a one shot reload, the sixth chamber of percussion 
revolvers may be charged at the bench and then capped “on the clock”"

Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, El CupAJoe said:

Good to know, don't want any chain fires.  I don't know if I saw any instructions about when to cap your sixth chamber except on the clock... if the rules don't specify,  it might be a good addition. I'll have to go read again. 

 

 

Edited by Ace_of_Hearts
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tyrel Cody said:

"If a particular stage requires a one shot reload, the sixth chamber of percussion 
revolvers may be charged at the bench and then capped “on the clock”"

 

Quote

...either before the first round is fired or after the last round is fired.

SHB p.13

 

This overrides any stage instructions specifying "shoot 5, then load one round" that would apply to a cartridge revolver.

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Loaded properly you stand very little chance of a "chain-fire".  This month marks the 35th year I'll have been shooting C&B revolvers in cowboy action matches.  I start the match with all six chambers charged with powder, wad & ball, cap five at the loading table and carry my snail capper in a vest pocket.   By my rather conservative count, I've experienced the following during that time:

 

FTF (cap only) = between 30-40

 

Chain-fire = EXACTLY ZERO

 

But, please do whatever makes you the most comfortable.  For as the learned gents above say:  It COULD happen.

Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Griff said:

Loaded properly you stand very little chance of a "chain-fire".  This month marks the 35th year I'll have been shooting C&B revolvers in cowboy action matches.  I start the match with all six chambers charged with powder, wad & ball, cap five at the loading table and carry my snail capper in a vest pocket.   By my rather conservative count, I've experienced the following during that time:

 

FTF (cap only) = between 30-40

 

Chain-fire = EXACTLY ZERO

 

But, please do whatever makes you the most comfortable.  For as the learned gents above say:  It COULD happen.

 

Some data to back up Griff's hypothesis.

 

Preventing chain firing

 

When the author talks about a lip on the cylinder causing issues; I had a pistol that had that very issue. After seating the balls and firing with a stout charge I discovered that the balls in some of the chambers would shift forward causing erratic ignition.

Close inspection revealed a very slight lip on some but not all of the chamber mouths. After removing the lip with a tapered reamer the balls no longer shifted in the cylinder chambers.

 

YMMV

 

 

 

Edited by Sedalia Dave
Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting,  I've noticed that ignition can be somewhat retarded in my guns with a layer of nitrided coffee filter paper between the cap and the powder, that's probably why I have yet to experience a chain fire with my 1858 even though I've been loading six, but only capping one at a time due to caps falling off undersized nipples.

 

Out of curiosity, if a chain fire occurs during the course of fire does that result in a procedural for engaging a target out of sequence?

 

9 hours ago, Griff said:

Loaded properly you stand very little chance of a "chain-fire".  This month marks the 35th year I'll have been shooting C&B revolvers in cowboy action matches.  I start the match with all six chambers charged with powder, wad & ball, cap five at the loading table and carry my snail capper in a vest pocket.   By my rather conservative count, I've experienced the following during that time:

 

FTF (cap only) = between 30-40

 

Chain-fire = EXACTLY ZERO

 

But, please do whatever makes you the most comfortable.  For as the learned gents above say:  It COULD happen.

 

So I gather that during your ftf event you then capped your sixth to complete the string?

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, El CupAJoe said:

Out of curiosity, if a chain fire occurs during the course of fire does that result in a procedural for engaging a target out of sequence?

 

Only if both (or multiple) shots HIT a target "out of order" when the stage specifies a certain order of engagement.

e.g. "Sweep the targets from left to right"...and the chain-fire results in a double-tap.

(don't ask how I know this...but "someone" neglected to over-lube the chambers after loading)

 :blush:

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, El CupAJoe said:

So I gather that during your ftf event you then capped your sixth to complete the string?

Yes.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On the clock reloads are only for ftf and stages written with a reload, not for misses correct?  Are there any other ways an on the clock reloads takes place that I'm not thinking of?

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, El CupAJoe said:

On the clock reloads are only for ftf and stages written with a reload, not for misses correct?  Are there any other ways an on the clock reloads takes place that I'm not thinking of?

 

In event of a malfunction (e.g. cap jam), the functional revolver may be reloaded in order to finish a stage.
For percussion revolvers, that would usually involve swapping out with an extra pre-loaded cylinder and then capping it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

In event of a malfunction (e.g. cap jam), the functional revolver may be reloaded in order to finish a stage.
For percussion revolvers, that would usually involve swapping out with an extra pre-loaded cylinder and then capping it.

Earlier in this topic it was mentioned that all six chambers were charged at the beginning of the stage in case of a malfunction and then the sixth chamber would be capped and fired to avoid a penalty. However, I can’t seem to find this in the rules. I see where you can load the sixth chamber if the stage called for a reload and I can see where you can swap out a preloaded cylinder and cap a chamber, but I cannot find the verbage  where l can come to the line with all six chambers loaded each stage. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm having trouble finding the exact link, but I know this is talked about in Shooter's Choice on replacing ejected or defective rounds.  I know because I asked about this specifically in a now archived WTC thread. 

 

Unless something has recently changed in the last year or two it is acceptable to charge all six chambers with powder so long as the shooter only caps five at the load table with the hammer resting on the uncapped 6th nipple.  In the event of a misfire the shooter has the option to cap the 6th chamber in order to avoid a miss, just like a misfire in a cartridge pistol or a jacked out rifle round.

Edited by July Smith
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, El CupAJoe said:

On the clock reloads are only for ftf and stages written with a reload, not for misses correct?  Are there any other ways an on the clock reloads takes place that I'm not thinking of?

Yes, you may cap that sixth chamber in case of a FTF or for an on-the-clock reload.  Negative in the case of a miss.  Although there are many things Frontiersmen can do that suppository shooters can't... reloading to make up for a miss is not one of them.  As to the last part of your inquiry, the only ones I can think of involve the rifle and shotgun... but that veers off topic by a bunch! ;)

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

here's a more specific application question, I have an 1860 with a broke off ez out where the nipple should be, it's now a dedicated 5 shot, I have a 1858 that I could load six in.  If I have a FTF in the 1860, can I make up the shot with the 1858?  does the order of use matter?  

 

example one, 1st gun 1860, shoot 2, ftf, shoot 2, holster, cap the 1858 and shoot six

 

example two, 1st gun 1858, shoot 5 holster, 1860 shoot 2, ftf, shoot two, holster, reaquire 1858, cap and shoot.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, El CupAJoe said:

here's a more specific application question, I have an 1860 with a broke off ez out where the nipple should be, it's now a dedicated 5 shot, I have a 1858 that I could load six in.  If I have a FTF in the 1860, can I make up the shot with the 1858?  does the order of use matter?  

 

example one, 1st gun 1860, shoot 2, ftf, shoot 2, holster, cap the 1858 and shoot six

 

example two, 1st gun 1858, shoot 5 holster, 1860 shoot 2, ftf, shoot two, holster, reaquire 1858, cap and shoot.

Yes, as long as you shot the pattern correctly you would still be clean.  Personally though I never re-holster a cap gun with a ftf.  I call it a broke gun and table it until the bad load can be cleared.  I'd hate to have an assumed ftf turn out to be a hang fire once the gun is in the holster.

Edited by July Smith
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, July Smith said:

I'm having trouble finding the exact link, but I know this is talked about in Shooter's Choice on replacing ejected or defective rounds.  I know because I asked about this specifically in a now archived WTC thread. 

 

Unless something has recently changed in the last year or two it is acceptable to charge all six chambers with powder so long as the shooter only caps five at the load table with the hammer resting on the uncapped 6th nipple.  In the event of a misfire the shooter has the option to cap the 6th chamber in order to avoid a miss, just like a misfire in a cartridge pistol or a jacked out rifle round.

If you can find that archive I’d really appreciate a link to it. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Griff said:

Yes, you may cap that sixth chamber in case of a FTF or for an on-the-clock reload.  Negative in the case of a miss.  Although there are many things Frontiersmen can do that suppository shooters can't... reloading to make up for a miss is not one of them.  As to the last part of your inquiry, the only ones I can think of involve the rifle and shotgun... but that veers off topic by a bunch! ;)

how about for reengaging a falling revolver target that didn't fall?  I'm going through the handbook searching for "fall" and "reload" and I don't see where it says what to do when an engaged falling target fails to fall.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, July Smith said:

https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/topic/279183-wtc-cap-fails-to-fire-in-frontiersman/

 

Here it is.  See PaleWolf's reply with the link to "reload choices."

Thanks for the archive, but even after reading it, it’s about as clear as mud. No where in the attachments can I see where it is referenced that a percussion revolver can come to the line with all six chambers loaded except where the stage specifically calls for a reload. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, doc roy l. pain said:

Thanks for the archive, but even after reading it, it’s about as clear as mud. No where in the attachments can I see where it is referenced that a percussion revolver can come to the line with all six chambers loaded except where the stage specifically calls for a reload. 

You know what you are right...  Maybe it's up to individual clubs? 

 

I really only frequent two SASS clubs and I know charging 6 chambers but only capping 5 has been discussed and okayed with the presidents and a number of TOs/ROs at both clubs.  If I am in the wrong for loading all six every time I'd appreciate the clarification/correction. 

Edited by July Smith
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, July Smith said:

You know what you are right...  Maybe it's up to individual clubs? 

 

I really only frequent two SASS clubs and I know charging 6 chambers but only capping 5 has been discussed and okayed with the presidents and a number of TOs/ROs at both clubs.  

I really appreciate your effort to find me the archive. I know how hard they are to look up when you’re trying to reference one lol. I’ve shot with Griff enough to know that he always charges all 6 chambers, and I’ve seen him have to use that sixth chamber, but for the life of me I have never seen it specifically referenced in the rule books. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

You may charge all 6 cylinders if you desire because a charged uncapped cylinder is not consider loaded.

 

A capped cylinder is considered loaded even it the chamber is question is not charged.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/20/2021 at 8:35 AM, El CupAJoe said:

how about for reengaging a falling revolver target that didn't fall?  I'm going through the handbook searching for "fall" and "reload" and I don't see where it says what to do when an engaged falling target fails to fall.

Only talking for rifle or pistol targets here...  Unless provided for in the stage instructions, falling plates are considered the same as a stationary plate, if it fails to fall, it's a miss, and cannot be re-engaged...   Note there are some obvious exceptions to this... a plate rack where succeeding plates are obscured by ones in front, in which case you knock them down in order, if it means re-engaging one... do it!  Most clubs will have these as KDs, then provide a dump plate for any rounds not required to knock down the plate rack.  In which case, only plates left standing are considered misses.  As a gross generalization, there are 24 targets set up for a stage... you only have 24 shots to hit or knock them down...  (yes, yes, shotgun targets are allowed to be re-engaged, but, they're the exception...

 

On 1/20/2021 at 9:19 AM, doc roy l. pain said:

I really appreciate your effort to find me the archive. I know how hard they are to look up when you’re trying to reference one lol. I’ve shot with Griff enough to know that he always charges all 6 chambers, and I’ve seen him have to use that sixth chamber, but for the life of me I have never seen it specifically referenced in the rule books. 

Why Doc... trust me... :ph34r:  perfectly legal... ;)

 

At top of page 2 of the above referenced clarification it states:

These same choices can be applied to a percussionist who experiences a "cap only" ignition in the middle of a revolver shooting string...
1) Re-engage the same target and recap the unfired chamber for the last target = NO penalty  *
2) Re-engage the same target and take the MISS on the last target of the shooting string instead.
3) Move on to the next target & NOT recap = MISS only for the unfired round.
4) Move on to the next target; recap & return to the skipped target = Procedural for HITTING the targets out of order (but no misses).

 

*  My editorial comment is:  If you have a cap only ignition or a ftf, you CAN remove the offending cap, and recap that chamber... or you can cap the 6th previously uncapped chamber, similar to the cartridge shooter pulling a round off the belt (or other legal conveyance as brought to the firing line) and chambering it in the empty chamber in the case of a dud round.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Percussionists have the same options as cartridge shooters in regard to reloading/replacing a "dud" round, reloading a round to avoid a miss when a revolver is cocked at the wrong time/location (SHB p.16), and loading (capping) an extra chamber or cylinder in event of a malfunction with one revolver.

 

The rules on p.13 of the SHB refer to "if a stage requires..."...this is not exclusive to mandatory reloads per stage instructions.

The above circumstances REQUIRE reloads in order to "finish the stage to the best of his or her ability". (SHB p.20)

 

...or take the 5-second miss penalties for any "unfired rounds".

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
edit txt
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.