WTC Cap fails to fire in Frontiersman

[July Smith]

New shooter looking for clarification because my last monthly match left me thoroughly confused.  Yes, I read the rule book and the flowchart but still confused.  

 

Last monthly I shot Frontiersman, the weather was poor and drizzled a few times while shooting which resulted in misfires on two stages.  I am looking for clarification on how to handle a misfire with a cap gun.

 

First scenario:  4 handgun targets, I don't remember the pattern exactly but it was pretty simple something like sweep from either end with no double taps.  Buzzer goes off, with my first pistol I shoot 1, then on 2 the cap pops but no bang (nothing left the barrel), I recock and aim again at 2 but the T.O. says no that was a miss shoot 3, okay so I shoot 3 and then continue seeping the targets as the stage instructions call for.   Spotters give me a miss and a P for shooting the pattern wrong.

 

Second scenario:  Again 4 handgun targets, instructions were 1,1,1,1,2,3,4,4,4,4 basically triple-sweep-triple, or quad-single-single-quad whatever is easier for you guys to think about.  Buzzer goes off, first pistol I shoot 1,1,1 then pop but no bang I cock and shoot 1, then with my second pistol I shoot 2,3,4,4,4 nothing left in the gun so I holster and move on.  Spotters give me a miss and a P.  I ask for clarification, discussion breaks out, in the end I am given just a miss on that stage. 

 

WTC?  I was told to always listen to the T.O. but how should I handle cap gun misfires in the future?

[Yusta B.]

13 minutes ago, July Smith said:

New shooter looking for clarification because my last monthly match left me thoroughly confused.  Yes, I read the rule book and the flowchart but still confused.  

 

Last monthly I shot Frontiersman, the weather was poor and drizzled a few times while shooting which resulted in misfires on two stages.  I am looking for clarification on how to handle a misfire with a cap gun.

 

First scenario:  4 handgun targets, I don't remember the pattern exactly but it was pretty simple something like sweep from either end with no double taps.  Buzzer goes off, with my first pistol I shoot 1, then on 2 the cap pops but no bang (nothing left the barrel), I recock and aim again at 2 but the T.O. says no that was a miss shoot 3, okay so I shoot 3 and then continue seeping the targets as the stage instructions call for.   Spotters give me a miss and a P for shooting the pattern wrong.

Incorrect call. you engaged the targets in correct order. 1 miss only.

 

 

Quote

 

Second scenario:  Again 4 handgun targets, instructions were 1,1,1,1,2,3,4,4,4,4 basically triple-sweep-triple, or quad-single-single-quad whatever is easier for you guys to think about.  Buzzer goes off, first pistol I shoot 1,1,1 then pop but no bang I cock and shoot 1, then with my second pistol I shoot 2,3,4,4,4 nothing left in the gun so I holster and move on.  Spotters give me a miss and a P.  I ask for clarification, discussion breaks out, in the end I am given just a miss on that stage. 

This is correct.

 

 

Quote

 

WTC?  I was told to always listen to the T.O. but how should I handle cap gun misfires in the future?

 

 

Sounds like spotters need some RO classes.

[Crazy Cryder]

First scenario should have been 1 miss only. Unfired round= miss, miss cannot generate a procedural. 

 

Second scenario penalties were awarded correctly.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

RELOAD CHOICES

 

REF: page 2 

 

T/O should have overruled the spotters in the first scenario regarding the "P".

 

 

 

[July Smith]

13 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

RELOAD CHOICES

 

REF: page 2 

 

T/O should have overruled the spotters in the first scenario regarding the "P".

 

 

 

Thanks for the link to the exact page.  So just to be clear I can re-engage the same target which means a miss on the last target.  Or skip that target resulting in a miss right there and continue with the pattern.  Either way, it does not result in a P.

[Yusta B.]

1 minute ago, July Smith said:

Thanks for the link to the exact page.  So just to be clear I can engage the same target which means a miss on the last target.  Or skip that target resulting in a miss right there and continue with the pattern.  Either way, it does not result in a P.

Yes. Correct.

[July Smith]

Thank you.  In the future I will simply continue with the pattern and take the miss.  I don't mind misses but I hate getting Ps.

[Yusta B.]

Just now, July Smith said:

Thank you.  In the future I will simply continue with the pattern and take the miss.  I don't mind misses but I hate getting Ps.

P.S.  You can also re-cap that cylinder & try to discharge it again.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

6 hours ago, Yusta B. said:

P.S.  You can also re-cap that cylinder & try to discharge it again.

If you plan to give that a try, I'd suggest you use the method 1 of the "choices" write-up.  Substitute "recap" for the word "reload," and do the recap to hit the last target that you were planning to shoot with the gun that cap-only-fizzled.   If it works, you get a clean stage.  If the recap also fizzles out, all you earn is one miss.

 

But if you cannot reliably recap AND index the cylinder to the unfired chamber in under 5 seconds, just take the miss and keep going.  (Unless you are shooting for clean match, regardless of how long it takes).

 

Good luck, and sorry your crew did not understand C&B operations.  GJ

[Chicken George*]

On the first scenario, the TO told him not to shoot at the target he was aiming at (which he was fine shooting) and move to the next target. Could that be considered incorrect instruction and he be allowed to reshoot the stage? I did the same thing as the TO once and was scolded. They got a reshoot. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

You essentially forced shooter into the recovery methods which result in a miss (or worse) that can not be cleaned up. So, yeah, your advice cost a knowledgeable shooter 5 seconds for a miss.  I can see why you were advised not to do that.

 

On a multiple-choice misfire recovery like this, as a TO I stay quiet unless shooter asks if one particular recovery method works.   Declare a misfire (or cap-only fire for C&B), so that you let shooter know he does NOT have a squib in barrel.   IF you are even sure of those things. 

 

If not sure about squib, call one, and shooter gets a reshoot if you are wrong.  But if you are right, you might save a bad situation from happening (firing round into the squibbed barrel).

 

Good luck, GJ

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

 

These same choices can be applied to a percussionist who experiences a "cap only" ignition in the middle of a revolver shooting string...  

1) Re-engage the same target and recap the unfired chamber for the last target = NO penalty  

2) Re-engage the same target and take the MISS on the last target of the shooting string instead.  

3) Move on to the next target & NOT recap = MISS only for the unfired round.  

4) Move on to the next target; recap & return to the skipped target = Procedural for HITTING the targets out of order (but no misses).   

 

RELOAD CHOICES (page 2)

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

4 hours ago, Chicken George* said:

On the first scenario, the TO told him not to shoot at the target he was aiming at (which he was fine shooting) and move to the next target. Could that be considered incorrect instruction and he be allowed to reshoot the stage? I did the same thing as the TO once and was scolded. They got a reshoot. 

 

Yes...that could be considered "RO interference/improper coaching" & grounds for a reshoot.

 

[McCandless]

Thank You for posting this.  The more folks that understand it the better.    Had this same situation a couple of months ago and chose to re-engage and not recap on the last shot.  At least I had one knowledgable spotter who could explain the rules to the R.O.   Then later at lunch the R.O. was talking to the M.D. who was tellng him it should have been a P.   *sheeesh* 

 

[Come On Christmas]

On 10/3/2018 at 10:21 AM, Yusta B. said:

P.S.  You can also re-cap that cylinder & try to discharge it again.

The Polish capper makes this simple.  Or an in-line capper.  At a club shoot stick a knife in the table to remove spent cap.