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Jeb Stuart #65654

Question about BAMM matches

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Haven't been able to find an answer, so I'm checking here.  The Blackhorse Shootists are going to hold their first BAMM match at this years SASS Montana State championship.

As far as the handguns go, auto's of course will have mags for their reloads, and I'm guessing that 1917's can use moon clips, but what about the rest of the revolver types, Webleys,  Enfields, Nagants,  etc.  If you shoot one of these types are you handicapped to reloading one case at a time, or can revolver shooters use two handguns? All three of our stages will have either 10 or 15 round count for handguns. 

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Go to the WBAS forum on the SASS website. BAMM rules are spelled out there.  IF it is a WBAS side match with a BAMM side match the only pistol allowed is a 1911 in 45ACP steel frame. I don't know what a CAS match would allow for pistols.

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It sounds like you are asking if "a BAMM side match at a Montana State Wild Bunch championship match can let shooters use revolvers or semi-auto pistols other than official Wild Bunch pistols."

 

Well, let's straighten out a few things, because there seems to be a ton of misunderstandings wrapped up in such a question.

 

BAMM side matches are offered in conjunction with a Wild Bunch match.  If you are wanting to do this during a state Cowboy match,  BAMM is not officially sanctioned in a Cowboy match.  You could run one if you wished, but shooters may not have the right guns with them since they would not normally take bolt action rifles to a cowboy match, any more than they would only want to "take a knife to a gunfight."

 

Pistols and revolvers are not used in a BAMM side match.  The BAM part stands for Bolt Action Military (rifles) and so only qualifying bolt action military rifles are used for a BAMM (match).   A BAMM can be shot at any distance and with any number of targets and shots to be fired that you desire, as long as you use those WW II-and-before bolt action rifles.   Commonly, these are shot between 50 and 300 yards, using cast bullet loads (to be safe on cowboy type steel targets), and can be scored by best number of hits (with elapsed time used for tie breaking) or "cowboy-type scoring with misses added to the time the shooter takes."

 

What you seem to be asking for is "what would be the rules for an official "Doughboy" side match."  Doughboy side matches are right now unofficial side matches that are not defined by any part of the Wild Bunch rules.   Commonly, those side matches are shot with a BAMM qualifying rifle and a pistol or revolver that was issued during or before WW II.   Since there are no published rules for Doughboy side matches, you can shoot them as you care to.   But a Doughboy competition would not really be part of an official Wild Bunch match, and certainly not part of an official  Cowboy championship match.

 

Now, how do folks run a Doughboy side match and allow pistols other than the official 1911 in .45 auto, and other military revolvers?   Well, they probably limit the number of pistol/revolver shots to six on a stage, and allow a six-shot military revolver to be full loaded (since most are double action).   Revolvers and semi-auto pistols are never really on the same playing field, as Paul Mauser and Georg Luger and John Browning all proved in their own ways over a hundred years ago.   Letting folks have two revolvers doesn't work well, as folks often don't even have the first one that qualifies and is known to work.   Getting lead-ammo for anything but the 1911  that will work is hard.  And, it's really not a good idea to shoot jacketed bullets on close steel targets.    And such side matches probably don't require the pistol/revolver to be carried in a holster (when was the last time you saw a holster for a Broomhandle or a Nagant?).

 

It just struck me that perhaps you meant you wanted to run a "real" Wild Bunch multi-stage match during a Cowboy championship.   The way that is done, is to run the WB match on a day before the Cowboy match starts.   Let folks know stage count and round counts, and that if interested they can sign up for the "side match" level Wild Bunch competition.  Four stages work real well for that.   If you do that, I would not allow revolvers into a Wild Bunch match, unless you declare a "wheel gun" category, then you can write up your own rules for how to do that, since it will not be an official Wild Bunch category.  Same problems have to be solved with letting folks shoot revolvers in this, as were described above.

 

But even more important, from my experience running state level matches and EOT BAMM side matches, I would caution you not to try to design a side match that you yourself have not shot before, and that you have not seen tried out at a few club level matches, to make sure that your side match will work smoothly and safely.  There's lots of little details to work out if you are designing a side match without ever even having seen one.

 

Good luck, GJ

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2 hours ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

Go to the WBAS forum on the SASS website. BAMM rules are spelled out there.  IF it is a WBAS side match with a BAMM side match the only pistol allowed is a 1911 in 45ACP steel frame. I don't know what a CAS match would allow for pistols.

This if the reference I used to set my match up: https://nebula.wsimg.com/67c7e72fa4791feeba78fa6c105a2452?AccessKeyId=C2C52822CB9D4ECDA7BD&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

It sounds like you are asking if "a BAMM side match at a Montana State Wild Bunch championship match can let shooters use revolvers or semi-auto pistols other than official Wild Bunch pistols."

 

Well, let's straighten out a few things, because there seems to be a ton of misunderstandings wrapped up in such a question.

 

BAMM side matches are offered in conjunction with a Wild Bunch match.  If you are wanting to do this during a state Cowboy match,  BAMM is not officially sanctioned in a Cowboy match.  You could run one if you wished, but shooters may not have the right guns with them since they would not normally take bolt action rifles to a cowboy match, any more than they would only want to "take a knife to a gunfight."

 

Pistols and revolvers are not used in a BAMM side match.  The BAM part stands for Bolt Action Military (rifles) and so only qualifying bolt action military rifles are used for a BAMM (match).   A BAMM can be shot at any distance and with any number of targets and shots to be fired that you desire, as long as you use those WW II-and-before bolt action rifles.   Commonly, these are shot between 50 and 300 yards, using cast bullet loads (to be safe on cowboy type steel targets), and can be scored by best number of hits (with elapsed time used for tie breaking) or "cowboy-type scoring with misses added to the time the shooter takes."

 

What you seem to be asking for is "what would be the rules for an official "Doughboy" side match."  Doughboy side matches are right now unofficial side matches that are not defined by any part of the Wild Bunch rules.   Commonly, those side matches are shot with a BAMM qualifying rifle and a pistol or revolver that was issued during or before WW II.   Since there are no published rules for Doughboy side matches, you can shoot them as you care to.   But a Doughboy competition would not really be part of an official Wild Bunch match, and certainly not part of an official  Cowboy championship match.

 

Now, how do folks run a Doughboy side match and allow pistols other than the official 1911 in .45 auto, and other military revolvers?   Well, they probably limit the number of pistol/revolver shots to six on a stage, and allow a six-shot military revolver to be full loaded (since most are double action).   Revolvers and semi-auto pistols are never really on the same playing field, as Paul Mauser and Georg Luger and John Browning all proved in their own ways over a hundred years ago.   Letting folks have two revolvers doesn't work well, as folks often don't even have the first one that qualifies and is known to work.   Getting lead-ammo for anything but the 1911  that will work is hard.  And, it's really not a good idea to shoot jacketed bullets on close steel targets.    And such side matches probably don't require the pistol/revolver to be carried in a holster (when was the last time you saw a holster for a Broomhandle or a Nagant?).

 

It just struck me that perhaps you meant you wanted to run a "real" Wild Bunch multi-stage match during a Cowboy championship.   The way that is done, is to run the WB match on a day before the Cowboy match starts.   Let folks know stage count and round counts, and that if interested they can sign up for the "side match" level Wild Bunch competition.  Four stages work real well for that.   If you do that, I would not allow revolvers into a Wild Bunch match, unless you declare a "wheel gun" category, then you can write up your own rules for how to do that, since it will not be an official Wild Bunch category.  Same problems have to be solved with letting folks shoot revolvers in this, as were described above.

 

But even more important, from my experience running state level matches and EOT BAMM side matches, I would caution you not to try to design a side match that you yourself have not shot before, and that you have not seen tried out at a few club level matches, to make sure that your side match will work smoothly and safely.  There's lots of little details to work out if you are designing a side match without ever even having seen one.

 

Good luck, GJ

Joe, Please look at the reference I used in my response to Happy Jack.  I didn't realize that BAMM was used as a side match for a Wild bunch match.  We will have a 5 stage Wild bunch match at our state match, I intended that the BAMM would just be a side match of it's own.  I have been match director for the Montana SASS state shoot for 12 years, so I'm not new to running matches.  We have also had WB matches at our shoots so that is not new to me either.  I wasn't meaning to have any pistol other than the 1911 in the WB match, but based on the info I read in the reference I gave, revolvers were allowed in BAMM matches.  In the reference given, everything is shot from one position so holsters are not used.  Also we listed the BAMM match in our side matches descriptions on our web site, so interested shooters will know to bring the necessary firearms if they want to compete.

Thanks for your very detailed answer.

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Jeb, I really like the idea of a "Doughboy Match", if there is one at the state match this hear, I'll be there with bells on!

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We can wear bells? 

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Well, that Nevada reference material does not describe a BAMM match (it really is a side match) as written up in the Wild Bunch rules.   What they describe is a kind of Doughboy match.    Doughboy can just about be shot anyway you want to, since there are no official rules yet for it.

 

If you advertise it as a Doughboy side match that allows military revolvers, you might get some additional interest.  Hope you have some strong turnout!   

 

Be ready to answer a couple of questions that the Nevada style shooting would cause me to ask -

1.  I can't get three magazines for my Borchardt/Broomhandle/Walther/Luger/Browning HP/P-38.   Can I still use it by loading more than 5 rounds in magazines I have?

 

2.  My revolver does not have speed loaders available for it, nor half or full moon clips.   What do I do?   Do I get a special category for non-speed-loaded revolver?

 

3.  Are there lead-bullet only restrictions on the ammo?  Any caliber or power factor restrictions?

 

When you do something that is not governed by an Official Rule set, you kinda have to make up enough rules to cover the things folks might want to shoot.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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Joe.

I would say answer to #1 is yes, load mag with more if necessary.

#2  This is what started this whole post in the first place.

#3  I have in our side match description limited bullets to lead ( rifle can use gas checks), pistol max 1000 fps and rifle 1400 fps

Thanks again for your help.

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A few clubs used to run matches where you could use anything that was made in or before the end of World War One.   You could use Main Match type rifles, or you could use "rifle caliber" rifles, either reloading as needed for the required ten shots, or even use two rifles.   For pistols you could use 1917's Webleys, Nagants, Smith and Wesson Model 3 DA's, and so on, or a 1911, Luger, Broomhandle, and so on.  You could use just one pistol, or any two pistols you wanted to get the needed ten rounds.  Everyone seemed to have the needed holsters and everything was loaded with lead bullets.  Sometimes there would be fifteen rounds, requiring one of the pistols to be reloaded.   For shotguns, you could use a 97, 87, or a SxS, but the repeaters dominated because you loaded up the magazine at the loading table.   Everybody shot the same category.  I saw people using all sorts of combinations of guns.  It's not all that common anymore, sadly, but it was a lot of fun.   But there is nothing to say that you can't run such a match and call it whatever you want.   Around here matches like this were called, "Wild Bunch."  

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Another, again unoffical, to Doughboy or even WB style match is introduce on a stage something called battlefield pickup.  This is a staged gun that the shooter uses.  It can be revolver or semi.  Shooter can bring hosare own or can be provided.  Gives a chance to introduce a few different guns. Of course all lead bullets.  You might see PO8, Broomhandle, 1917, 1903 hammerless etc.

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PLUS ONE too H. K. Uriah.

 

HKs description was "Wild Bunch" the way it was originally intended to be.  Unfortunately, SASS stuck their fingers into it and legislated most of the FUN right out of "Wild Bunch."   Sad.

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2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

PLUS ONE too H. K. Uriah.

 

HKs description was "Wild Bunch" the way it was originally intended to be.  Unfortunately, SASS stuck their fingers into it and legislated most of the FUN right out of "Wild Bunch."   Sad.

 

That is why around here they are called Pike or Professional matches.

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Jeb, if you are planning to run a "Doughboy" style match, it would be great if we required more rounds than just 5. A 15 rd scenario with reloading on the clock, per stage, would be great. Hopefully this will motivate people to buy more firearms. 

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It's a side match....do whatever you think would be fun since there are no "SASS" limitations. I once shot a Wild Bunch match that had a category for BAMM rifles. Same 1911 and 97 requirements. I show up with my Springfield and 5 round stripper clips. Another shooter shows up with an Enfield with 10 rounds mag's. We laughed.

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

It's a side match....do whatever you think would be fun since there are no "SASS" limitations. I once shot a Wild Bunch match that had a category for BAMM rifles. Same 1911 and 97 requirements. I show up with my Springfield and 5 round stripper clips. Another shooter shows up with an Enfield with 10 rounds mag's. We laughed.

 

One of the last times I shot an "old school" Wild Bunch like I described above, knowing that you needed 10 rounds and either had to use 2 rifles or reload as needed, I and one other fellow both showed up with Enfields.   Mine was accurate, his was not...   :)

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Dapper Dynamite Dick--I'll have the video rolling when you shoot with those Bells on!

 

Three Foot--You'll want to put your bells on those shoes!

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I just hope that Three Foot Johnson (aka Shorty) has been practicing since last July!

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In all fairness, I came in 2nd. :lol:

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Doughboy is offered at our monthly wild bunch match. We have targets out around 60-80 yards to accommodate the BAMM rifles and the balance of the stage is shot the same as the WB competitors.  The Oklahoma rough riders offer doughboy at the ok city monthly and are having great success with this category. 

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EFC8DBD1-A573-41DD-A512-270E3235E99F.jpeg.0a3d675f8f96973b297bd39ac312e771.jpeg

When we run a BAM match it is along with our monthly cas match so the pistol and shotgun targets/order are the same for everyone. The BAM shooters have their own rifle targets which mimic the cas shooters target order. Depending on how it’s written either DAs or 1911s [2x 5 rd mags] might be used. Got snowed out last month. Hopefully we shoot WB this month and BAMM in April. Fun stuff. [gotta loose some weight]

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15 minutes ago, Baltimore Ed said:

EFC8DBD1-A573-41DD-A512-270E3235E99F.jpeg.0a3d675f8f96973b297bd39ac312e771.jpeg

When we run a BAM match it is along with our monthly cas match so the pistol and shotgun targets/order are the same for everyone. The BAM shooters have their own rifle targets which mimic the cas shooters target order. Depending on how it’s written either DAs or 1911s [2x 5 rd mags] might be used. Got snowed out last month. Hopefully we shoot WB this month and BAMM in April. Fun stuff. [gotta loose some weight]

 

Loading a Krag is a lot of fun.   Shooting it with a bayonet attached is a lot funner.  

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Yes it is, i built this loader to keep up with the 03s, mauser and enfield guys. Not real pretty and needs to be a hair longer but gravity always works. 

BD8B2A03-25D1-4604-837D-6F0EC20492DE.jpeg

84565473-B008-43D1-9187-537779904F73.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Baltimore Ed said:

Yes it is, i built this loader to keep up with the 03s, mauser and enfield guys. Not real pretty and needs to be a hair longer but gravity always works. 

BD8B2A03-25D1-4604-837D-6F0EC20492DE.jpeg

84565473-B008-43D1-9187-537779904F73.jpeg

 

That's intriguing.  I have read that the Army did experiment with some sort of a stripper clip for the Krag, but I have no idea how it worked or what it looked like.

Nor can I work out how yours works...   

Anyway, looks like you are using the same bullet that a .30-30 would use.  Is that correct?   I tried that myself and had very bad results.   Lotsa jams and the front of the bullet getting deformed or a big notch in it when it did so.  Of course, I wasn't leaving as much of the bullet out of the case as you are; I was crimping on the crimp groove.   Maybe if I left it longer like this it would have worked.

But in any case I switched to a 175 grain pointed [but still lead] bullet.  That one feeds flawlessly, has good accuracy, and even with a max load of Trailboss, is still very mild shooting on the shoulder.

Even so, I have this weird recurring dream where I rebarrel and 86 to the Krag cartridge and load it up with flat nose bullets for use in the tubular magazine.
 

Something about that caliber that is just pleasant to shoot.

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BE - that's a different approach to the Krag loader than I have seen on the CMP Krag forum.   Yours appears to use a springy latch over the body of the case to keep rounds in the loader until you get it positioned over the loading gate, then you press the leather "button" to pull the latch away and let the rounds fall into the loading gate.

 

The one that a feller on CMP made was open on bottom, with the bottom round retained in the clip by a spring-brass "flap" that had a curve to direct the rounds mostly sideways as they come out of the clip.  And it had a slot to shove cartridges down and out of the box with a thumb, rather than counting on gravity, and to overcome the closing pressure exerted by the "bottom flap".    Interestingly, his also has a closed top to the clip, so cartridges have to be pressed into the clip by going back up past the retaining flap.

 

good luck, GJ

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The army came up with a stripper guide that mounted on the back end of the action at the loading gate. Open the gate, insert the stripper clip into the guide and push your cartridges into the mag. Kinda like the bolted on clip guide on the 1895 military winchesters that were sold to russia. On my speedloader the square piece at the nose goes into the open gate and the brown suede button is depressed which allows the rds to fall into the magazine. I’m using 193 gr Hunters Supply bullets, you have to install the gas checks yourself though. I use V-V Tin Star. Btw, the rifle I’m shooting is an 1899 carbine that was converted into a school rifle at some point in its life. Absolutely one of my most favorite milsurps. 

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All three of my Krags are 98s.   One rifle, one sporterized carbine and one short rifle that is the same length as an 03 Springfield.  I've read of a couple of different possibilities as to what it could be.    Not sure though.

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One way to tell a legit constabulary/school rifle is the turning down of the barrel at the muzzle to accept a standard krag bayonet. This is my rifle. It has a correct stacking swivel and upper bbl band screw on it now. Also has a ‘C’ on the rear sight.

 

D492DA0F-40C4-4922-8776-9EA15BA58DC8.png

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On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2020 at 7:30 PM, Three Foot Johnson said:

In all fairness, I came in 2nd. :lol:

There were only 2 of us with BAMM Rifles at Simms!

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