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Quizcat

Load 45LC, but with a recoil level of 38Spl.?

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My understanding  using C45S bought from AJ originally is that the case is actually to 45ACP spec.  and 45 acp data was used  to develop the cartridge.  I certainly found that to be true in my own use.  Although I am not a big believer that 45+P loads are a good thing for a Colt SAA size cylinders.   Best IMO to use a Uberti size cylinder and stay in the mild 45 ACP loading data, or lower.

 

The dwell time of the bullet in the barrel, results in where the bullet impacts.  In a hand gun the heavier, slower bullets are in the barrel longer time wise, while the muzzle rises in recoil.   Lighter bullets (given same powder charge) are in the barrel a shorter amount of time,  bullet impact is less effected by the gun's recoil.   Lighter bullets typically shoot lower.  Heavier bullets generally shoot higher. 

 

But when you are talking everything from a 260gr bullet to a 160gr bullet (45 Colt to C45S) ...going from 1000fps to 600 fps there is a LOT of leeway on bullet weights and  muzzle velocity on how all that will effect POA/POI questions..

 

In my USFA guns (45) a 160gr bullet in a C45S case is just barely acceptable to me for SASS accuracy wise.  While in the same guns, same case a 200gr (with a typical 45 acp target load) the guns shot well enough (2" groups at 15 yards)  but a good deal low for POI/POA.   

 

Excessive cylinder free bore is not conducive to accuracy in a hand gun.     

 

some video...

 

The problem with the video is he added a lot of human error by shooting off hand.  It then becomes hard, if not impossible, to tell what the heck really happened :)

 

 

 

Edited by levi littleton
video added
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5 hours ago, Patagonia Pete said:

Not that it has anything to do with the OP ...  

The Cowboy 45 Special case is the same as a 45 ACP w/ a rim (a normal thickness rim .. not the double thickness like on the 45AR).

There is plenty of data out there on the 45 ACP ...  

Also ... I can absolutely positively swear that my Cowboy 45 Special loads ... DID NOT ... shoot higher ... (my gosh ... there is like no recoil at all ... they shot lower than my old combo rifle/pistol 45 Colt load).

AND ... in regard to bullet jump ... please watch this video (there are many like this out there but this guy even mentions the C45S).

 https://thereloadersnetwork.com/2019/08/17/how-good-is-efficient-case-capacity-how-bad-is-revolver-bullet-jump/

 

I enjoy watching that guy a lot on You Tube, he seems pretty sharp.  

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In checking with my buillet suppliers, some offer the .160gr. coated bullet in RNFP, but one seems to recommend a 180gr., and even 200gr. and up, coated bullet in RNFP for Cowboy Action Shooting.  There seems to be a lot of guys successfully using the .160gr. bullets in the C45S casing with Trail Boss...but, what I seem to be hearing also is that the heavier bullets, from the stand point of physics, are better on paper for reducing recoil, safety, accuracy, less leading, etc...Am I getting that right?

Edited by Quizcat

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4 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

20160816_121501_zps1jgno8d4.jpg.2ff318a3c4caa61215e77fc7aadf7d87.jpg

 

I had this pair of Rugers in 45ACP that I shot C45S.  The throats were super to tight so the C45S had to be loaded with 451 bullets to chamber.  

I inquired today with Ruger concerning their throat dimensions for the 45 Colt New Vaquero, thinking the same thing might happen to me were I to select the .452 bullet.  But, I didn't want to reveal too much to them because all manufacturers seem to dislike reloading ammo for their firearms with respect to honoring their warranties.  I have yet to hear back from Ruger, they have up to three days to reply. But, when I do hear back, I'll post it here. Of course, no matter what their reply is, I plan on taking the actual dimensions myself before actually moving forward with ordering bullets, and loading the C45S casings.  

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14 minutes ago, Quizcat said:

In checking with my buillet suppliers, some offer the .160gr. coated bullet in RNFP, but one seems to recommend a 180gr., and even 200gr. and up, coated bullet in RNFP for Cowboy Action Shooting.  There seems to be a lot of guys successfully using the .160gr. bullets in the C45S casing with Trail Boss...but, what I seem to be hearing also is that the heavier bullets, from the stand point of physics, are better on paper for reducing recoil, safety, accuracy, less leading, etc...Am I getting that right?

 

I don't see much of a downside in using 160g bullets vs. 180g or 200g in C45S.  Perhaps, if there is one, it's the need for a faster powder to get clean burns, but that's not really a big issue for playing the game from a scoring standpoint. I've done load development with all three bullets and the 160g definitely has less recoil. I settled on Red Dot (or even better, Nitro 100 NF) for the 160g bullet, while Clays works well with 180g and 200g.  Trail Boss is, IMO, too slow for the 160g bullet by a large margin.  160g has less recoil and good accuracy. I've had no leading and don't see any safety concern. 

 

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Under the same load, a heavier bullet will hit higher. Also more recoil. Action=reaction. Moving a 200 grain bullet forward requires 200 gr recoil backwards. To reduce the recoil, you must reduce projectile weight, or powder charge, or both. Alternatively, you need more mass in the gun frame to counter recoil. Both acceleration of the bullet and recoil must be very close to equal, according to physics. Slower burning powder may spread the recoil pulse put a little, bit the total must be equal. 

Edited by SHOOTIN FOX

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2 hours ago, SHOOTIN FOX said:

I use the 130 gr barnstormer over 3.5 gr promo. Very light recoil and takes down knockdowns.

That's interesting...Promo and Red Dot are marketed as a shotgun powders, and secondary use is "handgun."  Have to keep them in mind.  Where do you get your 130gr. bullets, and do you buy coated bullets, or straight lead alloy?  Do you know the brinnel hardness?

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2 hours ago, Ripsaw said:

 

I don't see much of a downside in using 160g bullets vs. 180g or 200g in C45S.  Perhaps, if there is one, it's the need for a faster powder to get clean burns, but that's not really a big issue for playing the game from a scoring standpoint. I've done load development with all three bullets and the 160g definitely has less recoil. I settled on Red Dot (or even better, Nitro 100 NF) for the 160g bullet, while Clays works well with 180g and 200g.  Trail Boss is, IMO, too slow for the 160g bullet by a large margin.  160g has less recoil and good accuracy. I've had no leading and don't see any safety concern. 

 

Thanks Ripsaw, good information!

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3 hours ago, Quizcat said:

….what I seem to be hearing also is that the heavier bullets, from the stand point of physics, are better on paper for reducing recoil, safety, accuracy, less leading, etc...Am I getting that right?

 

 

no

lighter bullets less recoil

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I make and sell the 130 gr bullets. They are sized .452 and lubed with magma blue or green. PM me for details f you are interested.  99% lead with enough tin for fill out of the mold. This allows the hollow base skirt to expand on firing. IE Minnie ball.

Edited by SHOOTIN FOX
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11 hours ago, Ripsaw said:

 

I don't see much of a downside in using 160g bullets vs. 180g or 200g in C45S.  Perhaps, if there is one, it's the need for a faster powder to get clean burns, but that's not really a big issue for playing the game from a scoring standpoint. I've done load development with all three bullets and the 160g definitely has less recoil. I settled on Red Dot (or even better, Nitro 100 NF) for the 160g bullet, while Clays works well with 180g and 200g.  Trail Boss is, IMO, too slow for the 160g bullet by a large margin.  160g has less recoil and good accuracy. I've had no leading and don't see any safety concern. 

 

My experience has been that faster burners have sharper recoil, most noticeable with heavier bullets. I stopped using Unique in full-weight magnums because of this sense I had when shooting. At lower pressure levels, I don't know. I use a lot of Trailboss in other cartridges, all mild loads, and don't think of it as particularly slow burning and in need of replacement. I don't have any light-for-caliber bullets though. I get that a 160 in 45CS would use a fast burner, but even in loading 45ACP I am looking for a charge  with enough volume for me to see it before placing a bullet for seating.

 

The reason for my interest is having a new rifle in 45 Colt, already owning the revolvers, and trying to get setup to switch from 38 Special to 45 Colt or at least have 45 as a backup set of guns instead of my 44 magnum/special mixed set. I recently graduated from Elder Statesman to Cattle Baron and am not too concerned with being competitive outside of my class. The problem has been that the elder champions age with me.

Edited by Roscoe Regulator

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12 hours ago, Ripsaw said:

I settled on Red Dot (or even better, Nitro 100 NF) for the 160g bullet


Nitro 100 has the faster rise time.
This is a graphic of each loaded as close to 10k psi as I could get them for an equal comparison.

C45S-LYM-450229-Red-Dot-vs-Nitro-100.sfw.jpg

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Warden Cal .....

 

If your still playing with Ruger .45s .... Ruger is famous .. or .. infamous for undersize Cylinder throats.  Very common for a 451/452 bore and .448 cylinder throats.  Try dropping a known .451 diameter bullet thru your throats.  Should go thru with a light pencil tap.  If they stop hard, the throats need reaming.  Tight throats will also result in more felt recoil.  Cylinder throat should be at least .4515 or .452.

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28 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Warden Cal .....

 

If your still playing with Ruger .45s .... Ruger is famous .. or .. infamous for undersize Cylinder throats.  Very common for a 451/452 bore and .448 cylinder throats.  Try dropping a known .451 diameter bullet thru your throats.  Should go thru with a light pencil tap.  If they stop hard, the throats need reaming.  Tight throats will also result in more felt recoil.  Cylinder throat should be at least .4515 or .452.

 

Nope.  Traded them to Kid Rich.  Last I heard he sent them off to get worked over.  

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5 hours ago, bgavin said:


Nitro 100 has the faster rise time.
This is a graphic of each loaded as close to 10k psi as I could get them for an equal comparison.

C45S-LYM-450229-Red-Dot-vs-Nitro-100.sfw.jpg

 

Thanks for the analysis with Quickload.  Interesting and consistent with my perceptions of the loads. Nitro 100 does feel "snappier" though I have to admit it may be my expectations rather than reality.   After much testing with numerous powders, I've actually settled on 2.9g of Red Dot for a min 425fps, max 450fps, avg 425fps, SD of 12 IIRC.  Meets power factor (68) and 400fps min. requirements.  The Nitro 100 does burn cleaner, with almost no unburned powder.  I get a few unburned flakes of the Red Dot, but nothing that's bothersome.  The Red Dot gave me the most consistent data with lowest SD.  

 

To my way of thinking and based on 4 decades of reloading nearly all popular handgun cartridges with perhaps 2 dozen powders across the burn rate spectrum, (and despite OLG's ubiquitous insistence on Unique (with a very firm roll crimp!)) for all possible loads (just ribbin' ya OLG) Unique and Trail Boss are both slow (and hence, incomplete) burners in the pursuit of ".38 spl-class" recoil in a .45 caliber load.  

 

 

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I can't make QL numbers match yours.
I picked the Lee 452-160RF, which is 160 grains, seating depth of 0.210" and length of 0.452".
Using the standard C45S trim length of 0.896", this gives an OAL of 1.138"
The revolver barrel is calculated at 5.5" + 1.625" cylinder depth, total bullet travel is 6.44"

In Quickload, 2.9 gr of Red Dot comes out at 703 fps, 92.4% burned, and 34.7% filled.
 

C45S-LEE-452-160-RF-Red-Dot.sfw.jpg

Edited by bgavin

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On 10/8/2019 at 6:16 AM, Roscoe Regulator said:

Interesting that shooters will buy 45 Cowboy Special brass but generally not 38 Long Colt.

Bullets will be slightly undersized for both my chambers & bore... :P

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We have freeze warnings out for Saturday morning.   You guys trying to load down from mouse phart loads may get into trouble trying to shoot them in cold weather.  It's my understanding that cold weather does not effect black powder loads. Don't know about subs. But it's my understanding that temperature does change smokeless performance. 

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9 hours ago, Griff said:

Bullets will be slightly undersized for both my chambers & bore... :P

Good one.

 

I have thought about this and figure 38 Colt might be only for pistols and then maybe too light for any knock downs. But even in 38 I know some people move up to heavier ammo, if a stage calls for pistol knock downs. Even in 45 I am not sure I would modify a rifle for it, where recoil would not be as much of an issue. My 38s are Model P Jrs by Uberti and are stamped 38 Colt and 38 Special. I have been considering 38 Long Colt but want to have a greater understanding and comfort level before ordering brass and dies. I don't use 105 gr bullets either and would have to buy those too.

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On 10/7/2019 at 3:47 PM, Eyesa Horg said:

In my Vaquero's I'm using 4.2 grn. of Clays under a 160 grn. coated RNFP bullet in the C45S case and recoil is quite minimal with barely any muzzle flip. The brass comes out pretty clean and I get no leading in the barrel. The only time I've had issues with leading is using "hard cast" lead bullets. For me anyway---shooting at a target 5 yards away, I don't worry too much about the PSI to lead hardness issue or velocity deviation if there is any to speak of. I did start this combo with lead uncoated bullets from Missouri & Ringer and never had any issues. I haven't worried too much about a double charge as I'd have to remove the round from the loader and put it back under the powder die to double charge. I use a Dillon SDB progressive and knock on wood several times in 30+ years it has never short changed the powder or overcharged it. I just hated the filth and expense of TB powder. YMMV

I wonder about this 4.2 gr of Clays with 160 bullets and 45CS brass. Hodgdons maximum load for 45ACP, the reloading model for 45CS, is  3.9, and that is for a jacketed bullet and rated at 900 fps. It is also high pressure, with 20k psi well above the recommended level for 45 Colt SAA style revolvers. I am keyed into this right now because my 160 bullets arrived today, and the brass should hit early next week. I have 3.2 gr of Clays as my first load to try.

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I still follow this one, cuz I have an old model Vaquero 44-mag on the way.
I plan to start with 44 Special and a fast burning powder such as IMR Red or Clays.
The low pressures necessitate a very soft-cast bullet.
And then comes the trade-off between PSI and recoil...

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5 minutes ago, bgavin said:

I still follow this one, cuz I have an old model Vaquero 44-mag on the way.
I plan to start with 44 Special and a fast burning powder such as IMR Red or Clays.
The low pressures necessitate a very soft-cast bullet.
And then comes the trade-off between PSI and recoil...

You can load in .44 Russian cases to get higher pressures.  BTW, my Ruger (Old) Vaqueros shoot POA with 240 grain bullets.

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How brutal is the recoil?

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Just now, bgavin said:

How brutal is the recoil?

Tolerable, but I stepped down to Ruger (Old) Vaqueros in .357 due to arthritis in my thumb joints.  My stage times improved due to less recoil.  I'm keeping the .44s to shoot a King of Kaboom match.

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I got the old model Vaquero 44-mag cuz it is a Bisley, stainless 5.5" in near-new condition, and I'm a total sucker for Bisley.
Quickload is showing some 3.9 lb recoil loads with TrailBoss at 5.2 grains, Lyman #429303 bullet, BHN=8.4
This is about a 95% case fill by using trail boss.
Looks good enough on paper to give it a try.

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You know, when all is said and done a .45 is a .45, a big bore pistol cartridge.  A .38 is a .38, a, depending on where you draw the line, medium or small bore pistol cartridge.   A .38 can not perform the way a .45 can.  A .45 can not be be dropped down to the lower performance of a .38.   They were created to do two very different things, and to think that one can do what is the function of the other is not reasonable.

 

That being said, if you use a 200 grain bullet with 5.5 gains of Trailboss in a .45 Colt, you get from very pleasant, minimal recoil in 4-3/4" Colt to no recoil at all in a Konverted Walker.

 

So trying to get a .45 to be a .38 is not gonna work.   But minimal loads for the .45 do exist, and they work just fine.   

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I agree with that, all the way.

However, both 357 magnum and 44 magnum can also be loaded to punishing levels.
I have hot factory loads in 357, and shot a box of heavy loads in a Super Redhawk.  No fun.
I've figured out some very light loads in 38SP for my wife, and digging now to find tolerable loads in 44 SP for me.

I've seen a few too many comments from guys shooting heavy loads in their youth, then having hand and shoulder issues later on.
There is no need for these at CAS, so I'm happy with that.

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FWIW.  When I do shoot smokeless indoors, 5 gr Unique 200 gr bullet (12 Brinnel) in a 45 CS is a light load to me. OMV Bisley 5.5 "

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17 hours ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

I wonder about this 4.2 gr of Clays with 160 bullets and 45CS brass. Hodgdons maximum load for 45ACP, the reloading model for 45CS, is  3.9, and that is for a jacketed bullet and rated at 900 fps. It is also high pressure, with 20k psi well above the recommended level for 45 Colt SAA style revolvers. I am keyed into this right now because my 160 bullets arrived today, and the brass should hit early next week. I have 3.2 gr of Clays as my first load to try.

Roscoe, This was a suggested load when I first started using C45S cases and has worked excellent for me. I haven't chrono'd it yet, but seems to be pretty darn light.

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It is time to find some soft cast 44 caliber bullets.
I tried to reach "Lead Ringer" but his account is not accepting messages here.
Ringer is the guy who made that great custom run of soft-cast for our 38SP loads.

Minimum 44SP loads are running low BHN from pure lead (BHN=5) and higher, depending on how much recoil one wants to endure.

I am undecided on 160 grain vs 200 grains.
Open to suggestion from those more knowledgeable than me.

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On 2/1/2020 at 7:29 PM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

You know, when all is said and done a .45 is a .45, a big bore pistol cartridge.  A .38 is a .38, a, depending on where you draw the line, medium or small bore pistol cartridge.   A .38 can not perform the way a .45 can.  A .45 can not be be dropped down to the lower performance of a .38.      

That would be true if you stuck to the reloading data for sure. But in CAS I have seen 45LC loaded down to insanely low velocity so it can be done. Whether or not you should can be debated but people are doing it without incident every weekend.

 

So if you take a 38 Spl loaded near factory levels (even less) it can have more recoil than a 45 LC if you choose to go down in the basement so there is crossover depending on the load if you roll yer' own. 

 

I don't like a really light 38 load and I was helping a new shooter with his 44-40 loads. He was shooting 5 grains of Tightgroup under a 200 grain and I was at 3.9 of Reddot with a 105 grain and we both shot each others loads and there was no real noticeable difference in recoil which surprised me quite a bit honestly. 

 

His loads are much hotter than many of the 45LC's I have watched go down range so I'll agree with you if you stick to published data but not everyone does that. 

Edited by Cowboy Junky

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If 45CS is loaded lighter than common data, most likely Lyman, given lead bullets, what rule would one use without ultimately relying on a squib rod? In using 45ACP data, we know we don't have to worry about enough power to run a 1911 slide, so where is the real floor, not some arbitrary chrono number, although a useful indicator of relative pressure? Maybe a list of minimum velocities for each common bullet weight and barrel length, assuming some leeway for other gun variables? It takes a leap of faith to just use a recommended load without any data to back it up. If there was a respected book on 45CS, I would buy it.

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45 minutes ago, Cowboy Junky said:

That would be true if you stuck to the reloading data for sure. But in CAS I have seen 45LC loaded down to insanely low velocity so it can be done. Whether or not you should can be debated but people are doing it without incident every weekend.

 

So if you take a 38 Spl loaded near factory levels (even less) it can have more recoil than a 45 LC if you choose to go down in the basement so there is crossover depending on the load if you roll yer' own. 

 

I don't like a really light 38 load and I was helping a new shooter with his 44-40 loads. He was shooting 5 grains of Tightgroup under a 200 grain and I was at 3.9 of Reddot with a 105 grain and we both shot each others loads and there was no real noticeable difference in recoil which surprised me quite a bit honestly. 

 

His loads are much hotter than many of the 45LC's I have watched go down range so I'll agree with you if you stick to published data but not everyone does that. 

I will ask Shoshone Ed what he uses in his 45CS.

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Rosco  :)

 

I ain't Shoshone Ed > > > but I liked 4.0 to 4.5Gr TightGroup.  I shot 130Gr Barnstormers or 160Gr RNFP.  That's a long time back though.

 

Now I run APP 3f to the bullet base.

Edited by Colorado Coffinmaker
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