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Stopsign32v

1860 and 1866 Uberti brass frames. Straight brass or a protective coat?

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Does anyone here know if the Uberti brass frame rifles have exposed brass frames or do they hold a protective coating on them to preserve the brass? I'd like mine to age naturally and was curious about this and thinking if they had a protective coating that would hinder it.

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No protective coating that I'm aware of, Stopsign.  Just shoot 'em and they'll eventually develop a nice patina.  Especially if you shoot BP out of them.

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1 hour ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

Especially if you shoot BP out of them.

 

Oh that is the plan! And it is in 45 Colt so there should be plenty of blow back. :lol:

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I think that some fokes here claim that the new fangled BP substitutes will actually tarnish brass even more quickly than does real BP.  

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11 minutes ago, Slowhand Bob, 24229 said:

I think that some fokes here claim that the new fangled BP substitutes will actually tarnish brass even more quickly than does real BP.  

 

Only the real stuff will be shot through this

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In the past few years I've seen some that had a clear plastic film over the side plates.

 

Long ago, before I saw the light, I shot some APP and even some 777 in my .44 Spcl '66.  Those would cause ugly (to me) streaks and stains on the brass.  I prefer a BP patina.  This is an old pic, the sideplate is much darker now.

AntiqueLook3.jpg

 

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11 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

In the past few years I've seen some that had a clear plastic film over the side plates.

 

Long ago, before I saw the light, I shot some APP and even some 777 in my .44 Spcl '66.  Those would cause ugly (to me) streaks and stains on the brass.  I prefer a BP patina.  This is an old pic, the sideplate is much darker now.

AntiqueLook3.jpg

 

 

Man that is one attractive setup!!

 

Your post leads me to ask the question, why is the sideplate darker? Mine is the same way.

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I once heard the phrase:

"Pyrodex is a corrosive that also explodes"

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no coating and yes it will develop the patina you desire 

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Those frames are gun bronze, which is stronger than brasses.  Has almost the same color, and MANY folks think they are brass.   Tin addition to copper makes bronze.   Zinc addition to copper makes brass.

 

https://www.atlasbronze.com/C90500-Product-Sheet-s/1905.htm

 

Good luck, GJ

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Black powder helps give that real patina look

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Some years ago, an analysis was done on a Uberti frame, and the result came back as "Brass" not Gun Bronze.  I cannot quote that as an absolute fact is it is not my result.  I have always believed the Uberti frames to be Gun Bronze.

 

In all the years I built Toggle Link rifles for SASS/CAS, I never ran into one with any sort of "coating."  Recently, several have been reported with a thin plastic "film" on the sides to protect them during shipping.  Not any sort of permanent coating.  The guns will tarnish nicely.

 

For another answer, The Side Plate is darker "Because."

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1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

For another answer, The Side Plate is darker "Because."

 

:lol:

 

I'm guessing it is normal for these

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Here is an original that is the opposite.  Side plate is lighter.  Again, "just because" :)

 

https://rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/1866/M66-014431/66-14431.shtml

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 As has been stated, no coating. :) Just this morning I spent about an hour polishing my '66, Cimarron. Mine tarnishes very evenly, color is very consistent, main receiver and side plate appear to be the same metal. I shoot "B", "B" cowboys had shiny guns. 

 

I read or was told, a good rub with vinegar will do an instant patina. I have not tried it.  

 

I do notice that the top of my receiver gets rather pitted from my ejected brass dropping on it. It is getting a bit used looking, in all likelihood the last time I polish it. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Well, some historical posts on the SASS wire and CasCity forum show results of XRF (non-destructive high energy x ray) testing to determine the alloys of both original Winchester 66s and Uberti-made 66 reproductions.

 

Long story made short, the originals were made from bronze (gun metal).

 

The Ubertis tested have been high-zinc brass.  

 

Both tarnish.  Brass will faster.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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10 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Some years ago, an analysis was done on a Uberti frame, and the result came back as "Brass" not Gun Bronze.  I cannot quote that as an absolute fact is it is not my result.  I have always believed the Uberti frames to be Gun Bronze.

 

Howdy

 

That was me. I had to find the file in my computer because it was a long time ago and I did not remember the exact results. Here is the report I wrote up back in 2009:

 

 

 

Uberti Brass

October 3, 2009

Over the years, we have heard all sorts of opinions on just what metal Uberti is using in their brass framed Henrys and 1866 Yellowboys.

The metal used in original brass framed Henrys and 1866 Winchesters was actually a form of bronze, commonly known as Gunmetal. Paraphrasing Mike Venturino in his book Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West, even though the 19th Century guns actually used a type of bronze for their frames, they have been called brass framed for so long that the term has stuck. Gunmetal was a bronze alloy consisting of 80-88% copper, 10-15% tin, and 2-5%zinc. Gunmetal is classified as a bronze because the tin content is much greater than the zinc content. Gunmetal was prized by 19th Century arms makers because it was very easy to cast with, and had good strength, hardness and corrosion resistance. The frames of the 19th Century guns were cast to near net shape, then secondary machining was performed on them to bring them to their final shape, so the good casting qualities of Gunmetal made it an obvious choice. But modern frames are not cast to shape, they are CNC machined from bar stock, so the casting qualities of Gunmetal are no longer so important.

A very brief primer on the difference between bronze and brass is probably in order here. Both are alloys of copper. The main difference is bronze is principally an alloy of copper and tin, brass is principally an alloy of copper and zinc. Varying the ratio of copper to tin or zinc imparts different characteristics to each alloy.

For a long time now I have been wanting to get to the bottom of exactly what Uberti is using for their Henry and 1866 replicas. A couple of years ago Happy Trails, master gunsmith, gave me a sideplate from a brass framed Uberti Henry that he had used when prototyping his conversion Henrys, and told me to do with it as I wished. About a month ago I cut off a chunk the size of my thumbnail and gave it to the head of engineering at the company I work for. He had it analyzed for me by a process known as X Ray Fluorescent Analysis. I just got the results today. 56% copper, 44% zinc. Not a trace of tin. Now it’s true this is just the sideplate and not the frame, but I cannot imagine why Uberti would be using different alloys for the frame and sideplates.
 
As far as I’m concerned, it looks pretty plain that Uberti is using brass, not bronze or Gunmetal, for their replicas of the Henry and 1866 Winchester.

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bronze/brass nice to know that difference , i had always thought bronze a lot harder than what i have on my 60/66 but then i suppose that depends on the actual alloy content , i like it with patina but not tarnished green or black , just me - think the bright finish is a bit gaudy [or too new looking]

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So...per G.Joe brass tarnishes faster.  Per D.Johnson, the side plate tested as brass.  Per several of us, the Uberti sideplate tarnishes faster than frame.

Possibility: Frame is gun metal, sideplates are brass.

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I guess I will have to get a sample of brass from the frame of a '66 or Henry and see if I can get it tested again. I no longer work for that company, but I still know one of the vice presidents.

 

Don't hold your breath.

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I do not succumb to the urge to post much on the Wire but thought I would add a tad to this thread for what it is worth.  By the way of establishing a modicum of credibility, I am the BP shooting  pard and mentor of  Wire Information Guru _  Driftwood Johnson.  Inspired Driftwood and contributed to his  "edjumacation" to the joy of shooting the holy black!!!

 

Here is a technique to speed up the "Patinarization" (to create a new word, maybe) on a shiny Henry or 1866 brass frame.  After shooting real black powder and swabbing the bore with a patch moistened with HOT soapy water, squeeze the black goop from the patch that is produced from the first several passes down the bore into a container.  Use that "juice" and the soiled patch to rub the juice evenly over all of the brass on the rifle.  Leave it on the brass for a reasonably long time  before removing.  Just a few of these applications will accelerate an even colored "Patinarization" of the rifle receiver and other brass parts that otherwise would take years to achieve.

 

 My 1860 Henry with brass receiver,  butt plate and browned barrel that I have been shooting BP exclusively with since 1998 and my 1866 have taken on a most pleasing patina.  I have been asked several times if the Henry was an original to which I reply "I just wish it were".  Ca-ching  $ $ $.

 

Grizz

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Grizz Henry said:

 holy black!!!

 

 

 

Grizz

 

 

Uh oh...

 

I got fussed at here for saying that 

Edited by Stopsign32v

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Hey Stoppy,

That probably was Driftwood.  Pay him no mind if it was.    He gets crotchety sometimes.   ANNNND,  If so, I"ll smack him up side the head next time we posse together!!!  You know,  as Moe does to Curly in an episode of the 3 stooges!!!   Hee Hee HEEEE  BG.

 

Grizz

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1 hour ago, Grizz Henry said:

... You know,  as Moe does to Curly in an episode of the 3 stooges!!!   Hee Hee HEEEE  BG...

 

You mean, in every episode. :)

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