WTC: Falling and dropped handguns.

[Ron "Ironhead" Smith]

Never use the word "should" in a rule, especially a safety rule. You just created an argument that does not need to exist. Either it is a rule or it is not, choose wisely.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, Ron "Ironhead" Smith said:

Never use the word "should" in a rule, especially a safety rule. You just created an argument that does not need to exist. Either it is a rule or it is not, choose wisely.

 

Without a penalty attached, a "rule" is only a "suggestion".

If a shooter picks up a dropped firearm, s/he is liable for additional penalties regarding breaking the 170, as well as possibly sweeping others in doing so.

Dropping an unloaded firearm (SDQ); then subsequently committing another SDQ offense = MDQ.

The T/O is not subject to those penalties; which is one of the reasons for handling a dropped firearm in the proscribed manner.

The amended verbiage (Goody's version) has been submitted for the next edit of the SHB (currently in progress).

 

 

 

[Assassin]

So, if the shooter drops a loaded gun and picks it up is it a double MDQ?

[Griff]

2 hours ago, Assassin said:

So, if the shooter drops a loaded gun and picks it up is it a double MDQ?

I so badly want to say, "yes, one for this match and one for the next!"  Or, maybe it depends on who the shooter is...? 

[Captain Bill Burt]

On 12/18/2018 at 9:48 PM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Without a penalty attached, a "rule" is only a "suggestion".

If a shooter picks up a dropped firearm, s/he is liable for additional penalties regarding breaking the 170, as well as possibly sweeping others in doing so.

Dropping an unloaded firearm (SDQ); then subsequently committing another SDQ offense = MDQ.

The T/O is not subject to those penalties; which is one of the reasons for handling a dropped firearm in the proscribed manner.

The amended verbiage (Goody's version) has been submitted for the next edit of the SHB (currently in progress).

 

 

 

Could you clarify the TO isn’t subject statement? Last year at a match we had a shooter with a hammered double. During the COF he loaded the double, closed it, cocked the hammers then immediately had a ND. He dropped the shotgun which ended up pointing back at several posse members with a live round under a cocked hammer, MDQ. The TO moved to pick up the shotgun and I asked him to stop and clear the posse members who were now ‘downrange’ of the gun first, which he did. Had he simply picked up the gun he would have swept multiple people with a loaded cocked shotgun. MDQ? I thought so.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Could you clarify the TO isn’t subject statement? Last year at a match we had a shooter with a hammered double. During the COF he loaded the double, closed it, cocked the hammers then immediately had a ND. He dropped the shotgun which ended up pointing back at several posse members with a live round under a cocked hammer, MDQ. The TO moved to pick up the shotgun and I asked him to stop and clear the posse members who were now ‘downrange’ of the gun first, which he did. Had he simply picked up the gun he would have swept multiple people with a loaded cocked shotgun. MDQ? I thought so.

That situation is covered in the handbook.

[J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309]

About 15 years ago at Mule Camp (SE Regional) there was an incident similar to this . Shooter was sitting in chair reading a newspaper with back to building. (starting position).   

At the beep the shooter stood up slowly turned and started toward doorway (first shooting position "rifle").  Front porch was wet due to rain. While walking to doorway, shooters feet went out from under him and he fell flat on his back. When he hit one of his pistols slid back out of his holster. He was helped up and the firearm retrieved from the porch. Then the discussion began on what was the call.

The Berm Marshal for the Stage, yes they used them and had the best in the SE, Royal Barnes , came and made sure the was not injured and then instructed the shooter to go to unloading table and clear firearms and when he had gathered his wits and calmed down he could return to the loading table and start over.

The reasoning for the call was:   1. Porch was wet and slick.  2. Shooter had smooth leather soles. 3. Shooter did not jump up and run to doorway but was walking. Pistol came out due to fall and hard hit on porch and was not fault of holster. Basically it was ruled that the incident was not due to the shooter but to the inclement weather conditions.  This was confirmed by the MD  SQ.

 

Rules are great but if we ever stop using common sense (RO3) it will be a sad day in SASS.

 

JMHO

 

JM

 

[Snakebite]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 5:05 AM, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

Shooter slips and falls on the stage due to some wet conditions and loses a empty pistol from his holster. Whats the call? 

I took a closer look, and just the very end of the barrel was still in the holster. Now what's the call?

[Yusta B.]

31 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

I took a closer look, and just the very end of the barrel was still in the holster. Now what's the call?

No call.

[Silver Creek Jack]

19 hours ago, J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309 said:

About 15 years ago at Mule Camp (SE Regional) there was an incident similar to this . Shooter was sitting in chair reading a newspaper with back to building. (starting position).   

At the beep the shooter stood up slowly turned and started toward doorway (first shooting position "rifle").  Front porch was wet due to rain. While walking to doorway, shooters feet went out from under him and he fell flat on his back. When he hit one of his pistols slid back out of his holster. He was helped up and the firearm retrieved from the porch. Then the discussion began on what was the call.

The Berm Marshal for the Stage, yes they used them and had the best in the SE, Royal Barnes , came and made sure the was not injured and then instructed the shooter to go to unloading table and clear firearms and when he had gathered his wits and calmed down he could return to the loading table and start over.

The reasoning for the call was:   1. Porch was wet and slick.  2. Shooter had smooth leather soles. 3. Shooter did not jump up and run to doorway but was walking. Pistol came out due to fall and hard hit on porch and was not fault of holster. Basically it was ruled that the incident was not due to the shooter but to the inclement weather conditions.  This was confirmed by the MD  SQ.

 

Rules are great but if we ever stop using common sense (RO3) it will be a sad day in SASS.

 

JMHO

 

JM

 

This was imo a great call, your right, common sense prevails.  SCJ

[Snakebite]

43 minutes ago, Silver Creek Jack said:

This was imo a great call, your right, common sense prevails.  SCJ

Sounds to me like the muzzle of the gun was still in the holster.

 

I know Robin very well, and that's the only way it could have happened!

[J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309]

I double checked with RB and the  Pistol was completely out of holster but pointing down range. Remember it was ruled this way  because the event was beyond the control of the shooter.  

 

JM

[Snakebite]

3 minutes ago, J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309 said:

I double checked with RB and the  Pistol was completely out of holster but pointing down range. Remember it was ruled this way  because the event was beyond the control of the shooter.  

 

JM

If that was the case, then I disagree with the call. I firmly believe that common sense should be use in the game... but what about all the other folks that shot the stage... did all of them fall down? It sounds to me like the shooter was simply moving too fast for the circumstances. If the floor was wet and slippery, then the shooter should have taken that into account and moved slowly. Obviously the other shooters were able to handle the situation.  SDQ.

[J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309]

Please read second paragraph. Shooter was probably moving slower than anyone else that shot the stage. Wood was new treated lumber and slick as snot. He was not the only shooter that slipped on the wood but was the only one who hit flat of his back and shook the whole building. In fact, one of the better shooters at that time, Marshal Harland Wolf, slipped and landed on his rear and jumped up like he had a spring in his back pocket and shot the stage. Others may have slipped but I can only relate what I know personally.

 

It's really hard to judge a call based on what is posted on the wire. Especially without being there, as it is almost impossible to include all the extra particulars that would have an effect on the call. That's why I didn't directly respond to Deuce's question (not enough info).

 

You are perfectly welcome to disagree with the call but I'll have to stick with the call.  

 

JM

 

 

 

 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Following are the rules that I found that are appropriate to a call.

 

SHB p. 3 "All handguns must be carried in a safe holster capable of retaining the firearm throughout a normal range of motion."

Is slipping and falling on wet ground considered a normal range of motion? Or, is it likely the gun would have slid out with any fall?

 

SHB p. 17 "Any unloaded firearm dropped during a stage will result in a Stage Disqualification penalty assessment."

This gun wasn't dropped. The shooter fell on a slippery stage and it fell out of the holster. There is no verbiage in the OP indicating it was dropped. Could it have been a prop failure?

 

SHB p. 17 "If a shooter trips and falls during the course of fire, provided no safety rules have been violated, the shooter will be allowed to regroup and continue the course of fire."

Did the unloaded gun slip out of the holster after shooter is on the ground? It did not sweep anyone so I'm not sure a SDQ is appropriate.

 

SHB p.21. "However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, failure of the timer, or Range Officer interference) beyond the competitor’s control, a reshoot may be granted."

 

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 5:05 AM, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

Shooter slips and falls on the stage due to some wet conditions and loses a empty pistol from his holster. Whats the call? 

 

My answer is that there is insufficient information in the OP to make a call of SDQ. As others have mentioned the shooter may have been moving faster than appropriate in those wet conditions with his/her shoe soles. in that case SDQ. Or, did others slip and fall, in that case prop failure.

 

Aside 1: I shot an annual match in Sparta where the PM told the MD the stages (boardwalks) were getting slippery (it was raining). The PM and MD would not allow us to continue until the boardwalks were treated with salt or sand. I'm not sure which as it was eight years ago.

 

Aside 2: I shot another match where the boardwalk was very wet and slippery. One shooter fell and, due to the injury he received, was unable to shoot for months. I'd hate to see something like that again.

 

 

[royal barnes sass #5792]

I have not posted on this forum since retiring from CAS due to heath issues. The situation at Mule Camp occurred as stated by JM.  In addition it had rained all night and was still drizzling at the start of the match. The shooter in question was on the first posse of the first day. He was, I believe, the third  or fourth shooter. He was the first and only shooter to fall as a result of the weather conditions because we put down sand immediately. Marshal Harland Wolf fell because was he was moving at the speed of light and overshot the window. I called the way Insaw it and, using common sense, gave call to the shooter. If the same scenario happened again I would make the same call.

[Snakebite]

You have provided more information.... By correcting the slippage problem you have acknowledged that there WAS an equipment failure. THAT would allow the shooter to get a restart. If the situation had NOT been addressed, then it would NOT have been deemed a problem by the Match Officials, and the DQ should have been issued. The information as given did not offer any other alternative than to issue a DQ. If the muzzle had not totally cleared the leather, the shooter could have got up and continued with the stage.   No doubt, we make the calls the way we see them, but we need to be able to support the call. 

 

Snakebite

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

7 hours ago, J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309 said:

Please read second paragraph. Shooter was probably moving slower than anyone else that shot the stage. Wood was new treated lumber and slick as snot. He was not the only shooter that slipped on the wood but was the only one who hit flat of his back and shook the whole building. In fact, one of the better shooters at that time, Marshal Harland Wolf, slipped and landed on his rear and jumped up like he had a spring in his back pocket and shot the stage. Others may have slipped but I can only relate what I know personally.

 

It's really hard to judge a call based on what is posted on the wire. Especially without being there, as it is almost impossible to include all the extra particulars that would have an effect on the call. That's why I didn't directly respond to Deuce's question (not enough info).

 

You are perfectly welcome to disagree with the call but I'll have to stick with the call.  

 

JM

 

 

 

 

Why in the hell were y'all still shooting that stage if it was that slippery???

 

Fricken MDQ for everyone!!!

 

Oy!!

[J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309]

Sorry Phantom. Royals post reminded me about the sand being put down. Shoot, this was 15+ years ago and I can’t remember yesterday. 

 

This is is example of not having all the Info in the posts on WTC questions which cause a lot of disagreement between posters. 

My apologies to all. 

JM