WTC: Falling and dropped handguns.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Shooter slips and falls on the stage due to some wet conditions and loses a empty pistol from his holster. Whats the call? 

[Wyatt]

Alex......What is a SDQ

[evil dogooder]

Sdq.  Stuff happens that we can't contol. It stinks but it's the rules. 

  If somebody slipped on brass at eot and a gun popped out would you call it any different? 

[Mudflat Mike, SASS #20904]

  If it was me who fell, the call would be:

 

 "911, what's your emergancy?" 

 

  I don't bounce so good anymore

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

When it happened to me-SDQ

OLG

[Hells Comin]

When this happens how is the gun handled and who handles it? 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 minute ago, Hells Comin said:

When this happens how is the gun handled and who handles it? 

 

Quote

A shooter is forbidden from picking up a dropped firearm.  The CRO/TO will recover the firearm, examine it, clear it (if necessary), return it to the shooter, and assess the appropriate penalty.

SHB p.16

[Will Kane]

Should the shooter immediately stop and forego shooting the remainder of the stage?

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

If the shooter slips and falls due to some wet conditions, was it a "dropped" firearm? Hmmmm

[Hells Comin]

Was it unsafe to shoot the stage because of the wet conditions? If so who's call is it ?

[Goody, SASS #26190]

In the case of a dropped firearm what happens if the shooter does pick it up? They are already being assessed a SDQ, what other penalties would be applied? HMMM.............

[Griff]

7 minutes ago, Hells Comin said:

Was it unsafe to shoot the stage because of the wet conditions? If so who's call is it ?

Ultimately, it's the shooter's responsibility to be aware of and stay within their capabilities.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

6 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

In the case of a dropped firearm what happens if the shooter does pick it up? They are already being assessed a SDQ, what other penalties would be applied? HMMM.............

 

There is NO listed penalty.

Do we want or need one?

How about the SDQ for "unsafe firearm handling"...that would make 2 SDQs = a MDQ.

...or, if the T/O commanded the shooter to "STOP!" from picking it up = MDQ

HMMMMM......?

 

[Goody, SASS #26190]

While I don't really want anymore penalties I feel that when something is prohibited there needs to be a listed effect of their actions. This is the only way that things get called evenly and fairly for all at different matches around the country.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

31 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

While I don't really want anymore penalties I feel that when something is prohibited there needs to be a listed effect of their actions. This is the only way that things get called evenly and fairly for all at different matches around the country.

 

It would probably be easier to just change "is prohibited from" to "should not be allowed to".

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

There was a thread about someones holster falling and the pistol(s) falling out.  SDQ if they were empty and MDQ if they were loaded?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 minute ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

There was a thread about someones holster falling and the pistol(s) falling out.  SDQ if they were empty and MDQ if they were loaded?

 

That is covered in the SHB on page 16.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

12 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

It would probably be easier to just change "is prohibited from" to "should not be allowed to".

 Seems fair, and doable.

 

"A shooter should not be allowed to pick up a dropped firearm.  The CRO/TO should recover the firearm, examine it, clear it (if necessary), return it to the shooter, and assess the appropriate penalty. "

 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

43 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

That is covered in the SHB on page 16.

It IS covered in the handbook, but it says "dropped", as in dropped from the hand. It does mention holstered revolvers that remain "in leather" as in the case of equipment failure, but does not specifically address a holstered revolver coming out of the holster, as a result of a fall, equipment failure or otherwise.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

question for the original question,,, did it land on the ground or prop before being stopped from falling?  if it din't come to rest,,, did it break the 170?

[Ace_of_Hearts]

3 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

question for the original question,,, did it land on the ground or prop before being stopped from falling?  if it din't come to rest,,, did it break the 170?

Dropped is dropped. The 170 does not come into play.

 

[Griff]

1 minute ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

It IS covered in the handbook, but it says "dropped", as in dropped from the hand. It does mention holstered revolvers that remain "in leather" as in the case of equipment failure, but does not specifically address a holstered revolver coming out of the holster, as a result of a fall, equipment failure or otherwise.

For as long as I've been playing this game, a gun that comes out of the holster, (except in the hand of the shooter), is considered a dropped a gun and said penalties apply.  This specific issue was the reason I heard touted all over the place as to WHY we had to have holsters the deviated from the vertical by no more than 30º.    Whether my 40º holster never had a gun come out was immaterial, others did, so mine was now illegal.

 

It is kinda like, if one exception is noted, all other scenarios are not exempted.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Understand completely and don't disagree. Just wondered as it was a little vague. Shortly after I started shooting here in Georgia, I had a pard dart off to his right and stop on a dime at a shooting position. Problem was, his crossdraw pistol kept on a goin... about 15 feet away from him. SDQ, as he had just emptied it. We had a good laugh on that one.

[Hoss]

I tripped on a prop leg once, fell down, carrying empty 97. TO said I didnt drop it, he and counters thought I held it all the way down. I disagreed, I dropped it but landed on top of it. Did manage to keep it downrange though!  I overrode the TO call and said SDQ.  Afterwords, thinking about it, I thought it could have been considered a prop failure. and in fact, that club did change that particular prop so that it no longer protruded the way of the shooters feet. 

 

My question, if a poorly designed prop caused the trip-fall-dropped gun, , could that be a reason to negate the SDQ?

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

When this happend to me

SDQ 

[Kirk James]

Is wet muddy grounds a reason for prop failure?  Better figure it out before Winter Range.  If a table is unstable or has enough slope to cause a firearm to drop there is grounds for a re-shoot.   Do we want to get into weather conditions?  If the conditions of a stage are a danger to shoot we should not shoot them.  If the  Match Director says they are ok, we shoot them at our own risk.  Seems to me a SDQ if unloaded and a match DQ if loaded.    

[Griff]

3 hours ago, Hoss said:

I tripped on a prop leg once, fell down, carrying empty 97. TO said I didnt drop it, he and counters thought I held it all the way down. I disagreed, I dropped it but landed on top of it. Did manage to keep it downrange though!  I overrode the TO call and said SDQ.  Afterwords, thinking about it, I thought it could have been considered a prop failure. and in fact, that club did change that particular prop so that it no longer protruded the way of the shooters feet. 

 

My question, if a poorly designed prop caused the trip-fall-dropped gun, , could that be a reason to negate the SDQ?

 

3 hours ago, Kirk James said:

Is wet muddy grounds a reason for prop failure?  Better figure it out before Winter Range.  If a table is unstable or has enough slope to cause a firearm to drop there is grounds for a re-shoot.   Do we want to get into weather conditions?  If the conditions of a stage are a danger to shoot we should not shoot them.  If the  Match Director says they are ok, we shoot them at our own risk.  Seems to me a SDQ if unloaded and a match DQ if loaded.    

It's been my experience that the majority of match directors have shown an uncommon amount of exceedingly good sense over the years.  I've seen stages, props and scenarios changed or abandoned altogether when conditions warranted.

 

I've shoot in light mists, heavy downpour, snow and icy conditions... Unbeknownst to a group of us, we sat out a tornado that passed a couple miles south and continued the shoot when the hail let up.  Not all our MDs are as stupid, ignorant, clueless... stupid as I once was... or is that was once? 

 

But, even then, it's ..up to the shooter... (yeah I'm gonna repeat myself)... 

6 hours ago, Griff said:

 to be aware of and stay within their capabilities.

 

[Hoss]

2 minutes ago, Griff said:

 

It's been my experience that the majority of match directors have shown an uncommon amount of exceedingly good sense over the years.  I've seen stages, props and scenarios changed or abandoned altogether when conditions warranted.

 

I've shoot in light mists, heavy downpour, snow and icy conditions... Unbeknownst to a group of us, we sat out a tornado that passed a couple miles south and continued the shoot when the hail let up.  Not all our MDs are as stupid, ignorant, clueless... stupid as I once was... or is that was once? 

 

But, even then, it's ..up to the shooter... (yeah I'm gonna repeat myself)... 

 

As our friend Dirty Harry says:

 

 

 

[SHOOTIN FOX]

A what if situation.  Shooter slips and falls, pistol is fired empty. Falls to the ground with pistol in hand, does not break the 170. Partners helping shooter up step on the pistol and forces the pistol out of the shooters hand while trying to help the shooter stand up.  Still in the dirt facing down range,  call was SDQ.  No arhuement withe the call, but situations dictate interpretation of the rules.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

3 minutes ago, SHOOTIN FOX said:

A what if situation.  Shooter slips and falls, pistol is fired empty. Falls to the ground with pistol in hand, does not break the 170. Partners helping shooter up step on the pistol and forces the pistol out of the shooters hand while trying to help the shooter stand up.  Still in the dirt facing down range,  call was SDQ.  No arhuement withe the call, but situations dictate interpretation of the rules.

I would disagree with that call based on the fact that the ground is a perfectly legal place to set a gun down. 

[SHOOTIN FOX]

I agree, but the MD said any gun on the ground is a SDQ. 

 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

1 minute ago, SHOOTIN FOX said:

I agree, but the MD said any gun on the ground is a SDQ. 

 

Unless there is a range rule that he is enforcing, I’d disagree. You won’t find that rule in the SASS handbook. 

[Griff]

4 minutes ago, SHOOTIN FOX said:

I agree, but the MD said any gun on the ground is a SDQ. 

2 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Unless there is a range rule that he is enforcing, I’d disagree. You won’t find that rule in the SASS handbook. 

I'm going to follow my own advice and keep my "Monday morning quarterback" opinion to myself.  

 

[SHOOTIN FOX]

That was my point. Tue shooter was injured and did not continue the match, but the SDQ for non existant rule was the question. It was a State or above match. 

 

Sorry reread the OP and do not want to hijack the thread. Just meant to say, different folks call things different.

[Carolina Gunslinger]

Where in the rules does it authorize a shooter to call penalties upon themselves?

 

As for an effect for trying to pick up a gun...how about having your hand stepped on by the TO? He's just preventing you from screwing up any further any faster...