WTC

[Lawman Mays]

Stage calls for 10 Rifle, 10 Pistol, and 4 shotgun.  Both rifle and shotgun are staged at a table. Shooter shoots 10 rifle rounds, then shoots 5 rounds out of the first pistol, holsters it, and then shoots all 5 rounds out of his second pistol. Instead of holstering second pistol, he places it on the table in front of him, pointing downrange, and then finishes the stage by firing 4 shotgun shells. This was debated, some thought no call, others thought it is a minor safety violation. The range officer said that they usually don't assess any penalty for this, and I don't think he did. What's the call?

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Procedural penalty

 

Not  returning  revolvers  to  leather  (unless  otherwise  specified). 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

See also

 

Revolvers  are  returned  to  leather  (re-holstered)  (in  a  safe  condition)  at  the conclusion  of  the  shooting  string,  unless  the  stage  description  specifically  directs otherwise  (e.g.,  “move  to  the  next  position  and  set  gun  on  table  or  prop”).    A shooting  string  is  defined  as  shots  from  one  type  of  firearm  prior  to  the  next  type of  firearm  engaged. 

 

Shooting  string  –  shots  from  one  type  of  firearm  prior  to  use  of  the  next  type  of  firearm engaged. 

[Assassin]

Revolvers are supposed to be returned to leather after the shooting string. That would be before the next firearm is engaged. 10 second procedural penalty for failing to holster pistol before firing shotgun. It used to be a safety, because a shooter could screw up a sequence, or some other procedural violation and then leave his/her pistol and basically get a freebie.

[Shamrock Sadie]

15 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

See also

 

Revolvers  are  returned  to  leather  (re-holstered)  (in  a  safe  condition)  at  the conclusion  of  the  shooting  string,  unless  the  stage  description  specifically  directs otherwise  (e.g.,  “move  to  the  next  position  and  set  gun  on  table  or  prop”).    A shooting  string  is  defined  as  shots  from  one  type  of  firearm  prior  to  the  next  type of  firearm  engaged. 

 

Shooting  string  –  shots  from  one  type  of  firearm  prior  to  use  of  the  next  type  of  firearm engaged. 

.
SHB v22.3, p. 14

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Not returning pistols to holsters at the end of the string is a P not a MSV, SHB p. 21.

[Assassin]

7 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Not returning pistols to holsters at the end of the string is a P not a MSV, SHB p. 21.

You are correct, page 66 of the RO1 handbook also states it is a "P". 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Not returning pistols to holsters at the end of the string is a P not a MSV, SHB p. 21.

Yes, up until a few years ago it was MSV. 

 

Randy

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I'm stunned that this called is a difficult one... Shows me that there are clubs that don't give a dang about SASS rules.

 

Phantom

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

      YUP          Did you all know that 20% of High School graduates are not able to read .                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

32 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm stunned that this called is a difficult one... Shows me that there are clubs that don't give a dang about SASS rules.

 

Phantom

Or it could show that SASS needs to make a priority to streamline the RO training program, make renewal/refresher requirements mandatory to maintain RO status, AND make it easier for folks to be trained/certified.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Or it could show that SASS needs to make a priority to streamline the RO training program, make renewal/refresher requirements mandatory to maintain RO status, AND make it easier for folks to be trained/certified.

How's about just taking a little time to read the manual?? Take a little ownership... Personal responsibility...hmmmm...

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

How's about just taking a little time to read the manual?? Take a little ownership... Personal responsibility...hmmmm...

 You said read.

[Bubba Bear, SASS #26793L]

Did the stage description specify what to do with the pistols after they are shot.  I have seen some that say to re-holster and others that say make safe..  That distinction is important.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Bubba Bear, SASS #26793L said:

Did the stage description specify what to do with the pistols after they are shot.  I have seen some that say to re-holster and others that say make safe..  That distinction is important.

Manual. Read the manual.

[Bubba Bear, SASS #26793L]

I have read the manual, but you also have to go by the stage description.  That;s why I asked the question.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Bubba Bear, SASS #26793L said:

I have read the manual, but you also have to go by the stage description.  That;s why I asked the question.

I've never seen a stage say to make pistols "safe". The only time I've seen anything like that is when the pistols are/can be staged. Then the instructions usually day that they can be holstered or restaged.

 

Besides if the stage instructions said they can be restaged or left on the table do you think we'd be discussing this??

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

- Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered) (in a safe condition) at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”).  A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

SHB p.14

 

Re-holstering is the DEFAULT barring specific directions to allow doing otherwise.
I've never seen "make safe" regarding revolvers, either...only long guns (which is an unnecessary instruction in & of itself).

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

SHB p.14

 

Re-holstering is the DEFAULT barring specific directions to allow doing otherwise.
I've never seen "make safe" regarding revolvers, either...only long guns (which is an unnecessary instruction in & of itself).

I always laugh when stage writers put "make safe"... Like... as opposed to make unsafe???

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I always laugh when stage writers put "make safe"... Like... as opposed to make unsafe???

 

 

My point exactly!

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

I often wonder when if the pistols are the last to be shot & the shooter tables the first & reholsters both are firing the 2nd pistol..I suppose it is slightly quicker to do it that way. I've tried it but muscle memory wants to put the first back in leather, it's different when you try something that's not   the norm. It's amazing how many will go to reholster  when the pistols start from  & return to the table.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

4 minutes ago, Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 said:

I often wonder when if the pistols are the last to be shot & the shooter tables the first & reholsters both after firing the 2nd pistol..I suppose it is slightly quicker to do it that way. I've tried it but muscle memory wants to put the first back in leather, it's different when you try something that's not   the norm. It's amazing how many will go to reholster  when the pistols start from  & return to the table.

 

IMO...stopping to think about doing something different from the norm negates any perceived advantage.
 

[Bubba Bear, SASS #26793L]

Just because you have never seen it does not mean it is not out there.  I won't name the club but they have it often.  That was why I asked for more specifics.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Bubba Bear, SASS #26793L said:

Just because you have never seen it does not mean it is not out there.  I won't name the club but they have it often.  That was why I asked for more specifics.

Weird club instruction... But again, if the stage in question was so worded, there would have been no dispute... and no need for a WTC.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

5 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

How's about just taking a little time to read the manual?? Take a little ownership... Personal responsibility...hmmmm...

You wish people had more personal responsibility, I wish people were held more accountable.

 

Our end goal is the same...better understanding and following of the rules.

 

But do you prefer to hope that your next RO took the time to read the rules and keep up with the changes posted on the Wire, or trust that they are qualified to assume their responsibility with a program requiring their continuing education?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

You wish people had more personal responsibility, I wish people were held more accountable.

 

Our end goal is the same...better understanding and following of the rules.

 

But do you prefer to hope that your next RO took the time to read the rules and keep up with the changes posted on the Wire, or trust that they are qualified to assume their responsibility with a program requiring their continuing education?

?????

 

I'm willing to challenge a call by a misinformed RO.

 

Therefore... I'm taking personal responsibility...

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Just now, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

?????

 

I'm willing to challenge a call by a misinformed RO.

 

Therefore... I'm taking personal responsibility...

What about all the other ROs working the match? You taking personal responsibility to make sure they get all the calls right for everyone else so it doesn't negatively impact you?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

What about all the other ROs working the match? You taking personal responsibility to make sure they get all the calls right for everyone else so it doesn't negatively impact you?

Roll of the Match Director. 

 

Wanna ask a serious question?

[Carolina Gunslinger]

Bubba Bear, do you by chance shoot other games like IDPA and or USPSA or 3 gun? That's where you're getting your make safe from. If you're going to apply that logic to sass...you're riding for a fall down a gopher hole of massive frustration. Shoving pistols into leather when done with them is generally a safe bet. Of course...you have to read ALL the manuals not just the shooters handbook. You have to know the logic they are using against you if you want to play the game and it's confusing why an organization would write their rules in  this manner.

 

As far as calls go, I am only challenging anything that affects me and mine. The rest of the world is at the mercy of the TO. I'm limited in my patience for the officiating process in this discipline involving so much back and forth with multiple people over several minutes. I believe it reflects poorly on the match staff when a call cannot be made on the spot by the TO, but it further reflects poorly on the organization which makes calling the stage so difficult at times. The periodic recertification of range officials is a great idea and I support this idea as it gets folks talking about situations and increases group knowledge and experience. 

[Shooting Bull]

1 hour ago, Bubba Bear, SASS #26793L said:

Just because you have never seen it does not mean it is not out there.  I won't name the club but they have it often.  That was why I asked for more specifics.

 

Just to be perfectly clear, pistols are “made safe” in their holsters. That’s the SASS default. Unless the stage instructions SPECIFICALLY tell you to put them some other place (table, shelf, etc.) they get returned to leather. 

 

[Carolina Gunslinger]

15 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Just to be perfectly clear, pistols are “made safe” in their holsters. That’s the SASS default. Unless the stage instructions SPECIFICALLY tell you to put them some other place (table, shelf, etc.) they get returned to leather. 

 

Tell me again why I bother going to the unloading table if I have made the pistols safe elsewhere on the stage? Can we just agree to not use this language that doesn't appear in the sass rulebooks? They are transitioned from and the holstering is in fact the default condition of staging and abandonment. When you finish with the rifle and shotgun they both have their own default stipulated conditions of abandonment. They aren't "made safe" on the stage, but rather they are later demonstrated to be unloaded at the unloading table. Which should be manned by a person who is knowledgeable about different types of firearms not some goof that can count to six.

[Tennessee williams]

They're "made safe" for you to go to the unloading table. Where someone that excels in the ability to count to six, can verify that your pistols are "made safe" for you to walk around the range. I'd sure hate to see someone walk from the firing line to the unloading table carrying 2 pistols and a rifle and a shotgun. I don't know how many rounds were fired from those pistols or even how many were loaded to begin with. Safety rules are there for a reason and not everybody has the same familiarity with guns/weapons.

[Carolina Gunslinger]

46 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

They're "made safe" for you to go to the unloading table. Where someone that excels in the ability to count to six, can verify that your pistols are "made safe" for you to walk around the range. I'd sure hate to see someone walk from the firing line to the unloading table carrying 2 pistols and a rifle and a shotgun. I don't know how many rounds were fired from those pistols or even how many were loaded to begin with. Safety rules are there for a reason and not everybody has the same familiarity with guns/weapons.

As long as they aren't errantly discharged who cares if they walk straight to the unloading table? They're doing us all a favor at that point by shaving 4 minutes off the match. Those unfamiliar with the guns of the game are not candidates for the loading table, unloading table, nor the timer. When you have someone with a malfunction and then unloading table attendant has no idea what to do...the stage backs up. There are penalties to be called from the unloading table...silly as they are. Person doesn't know the gun...can't make the call. I have yet to see where it authorizes or requires a competitor to call a penalty on themselves. It is up to a match official to assess the penalties and make the call. 

[Tennessee williams]

24 minutes ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

As long as they aren't errantly discharged who cares if they walk straight to the unloading table? They're doing us all a favor at that point by shaving 4 minutes off the match. Those unfamiliar with the guns of the game are not candidates for the loading table, unloading table, nor the timer. When you have someone with a malfunction and then unloading table attendant has no idea what to do...the stage backs up. There are penalties to be called from the unloading table...silly as they are. Person doesn't know the gun...can't make the call. I have yet to see where it authorizes or requires a competitor to call a penalty on themselves. It is up to a match official to assess the penalties and make the call. 

I honestly don't have a clue what you are trying to say. I can say, the unloading table should be big enough for 2 or 3 people. All I have seen are. Never seen it back up a match even with back to back malfunctions. 

No quad taps!

[Bubba Bear, SASS #26793L]

Shooting Bull,

 

I understand what the rule book says.  I am just telling you what happens at some shoots.  Make no difference to me, I prefer stages that end with the pistols, as I am used to re-holstering when done.  Some places the people who write the stages feel placing the pistols on the table save them time.  I'm not fast enough for to make a difference.